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Slavery

Danhalen

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Back in the day (Jesus times), slavery was permissible. I am not certain, but I think I recall that there are rules in the bible for how to handle your slaves. That being said, is it immoral to own another human being? Please give your reasons for believing why or why not slavery is immoral.

I, for one, do believe that it is immoral. I think that the basis of all rights begins with ourselves having the freedom to choose how we wish to live. A life of voluntary servitude is not the same as being born, and then taught that you are to live a life of servitude. Even under the assumption that the master of the slave will provide shelter and sustenance for the slave, should not the slave have the choice to live that way?
 

ChristianCenturion

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Danhalen said:
Back in the day (Jesus times), slavery was permissible. I am not certain, but I think I recall that there are rules in the bible for how to handle your slaves. That being said, is it immoral to own another human being? Please give your reasons for believing why or why not slavery is immoral.

I, for one, do believe that it is immoral. I think that the basis of all rights begins with ourselves having the freedom to choose how we wish to live. A life of voluntary servitude is not the same as being born, and then taught that you are to live a life of servitude. Even under the assumption that the master of the slave will provide shelter and sustenance for the slave, should not the slave have the choice to live that way?

I am a voluntary slave to Christ.
View that as you will.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Danhalen said:
I view that as your choice. Therefore it is moral. What is your view on involuntary slavery?

The degree of voluntary is ambiguous to me. As a Christian, I would say that people (including my former lifestyle) were slaves to their sin, but it was an unknowing condition.
As to slavery in the involuntary and historical racial; I view it as immoral, but qualify it as also ambiguous in that due to it being legal at the time and there is a possibility of some slave owners which held slaves and yet treated them very well. It is not my place to judge with a wide brush those that did not have the luxury of hindsight as I do.

Then again, I'm a white male and my black brothers and sisters would probably view things differently.
 
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suzybeezy

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I think you have to think about the context in which this was written and the translations and the time. I think the word slave in the bible may have been refering to workers and masters may have been refering to a boss. Yes people were born into those roles, but that was just because of status positions. The same can be said today. If you are born into priviledge, you are a child from the master line. If you are born into poverty, you are born a worker. I realize that is a simple take on the matter. But I truly believe that is the way it was back then. And yes people were stuck in these positions (the slaves), but it's just because they had no other means out of them. God permitted this just as he permits our circumstances. He he wants us to succeed he will permit it and allow us to become masters/bosses. Otherwise we remain slaves to the world and remain workers.
 
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Danhalen

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ChristianCenturion said:
The degree of voluntary is ambiguous to me. As a Christian, I would say that people (including my former lifestyle) were slaves to their sin, but it was an unknowing condition.
Can one be a slave by one's own volition? By the above comment, it seems to me that you have substituted one form of slavery for another. By your own admission, you are a slave to Jesus, coming from your former master "Sin". Is this where the ambiguity comes from?

As to slavery in the involuntary and historical racial; I view it as immoral, but qualify it as also ambiguous in that due to it being legal at the time and there is a possibility of some slave owners which held slaves and yet treated them very well. It is not my place to judge with a wide brush those that did not have the luxury of hindsight as I do.
This is a very good point that you have made. It does leave the door open to moral ambiguity. If slavery was once considered a system that was not immoral, but now it is, it seems that morality is ambiguous in general. Hindsight is the key determining factor for us, and you are wise to point that out. However, if it was once morally acceptable, what has changed that makes it morally reprehensible now?

Then again, I'm a white male and my black brothers and sisters would probably view things differently.
Another important observation that I did not include in the OP. Having different upbringing would definately color ones opinion on this matter. If the opinions differ, and are equally valid, how can we say that either is correct?
 
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Danhalen

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suzybeezy said:
I think you have to think about the context in which this was written and the translations and the time. I think the word slave in the bible may have been refering to workers and masters may have been refering to a boss.
There were clearly slaves and masters back then. The same as there were slaves and masters in the US. The same as the caste system in India clearly enslaves people by their birth today. When one is not in charge of their own choices, they are slaves.

Yes people were born into those roles, but that was just because of status positions. The same can be said today. If you are born into priviledge, you are a child from the master line. If you are born into poverty, you are born a worker.
The difference between then and now is, we are able to overcome our station if we choose to. A slave is a slave as long as his master wants him to be. I was born in poverty, but my parents worked hard for me. I left them as a product of the middle class. It is my intention to give my children a better opportinity than even I had. It is because of this that I am not the same as the slave of yesterday.

I realize that is a simple take on the matter. But I truly believe that is the way it was back then. And yes people were stuck in these positions (the slaves), but it's just because they had no other means out of them.
That is the defining difference between then and now. We are not the same as them.

God permitted this just as he permits our circumstances. He he wants us to succeed he will permit it and allow us to become masters/bosses. Otherwise we remain slaves to the world and remain workers.
I am not a slave to the world. I am the master of my own destiny. I will do it by my own volition.

Happy birthday!
 
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mepalmer3

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Danhalen said:
Back in the day (Jesus times), slavery was permissible. I am not certain, but I think I recall that there are rules in the bible for how to handle your slaves. That being said, is it immoral to own another human being? Please give your reasons for believing why or why not slavery is immoral.

There are numerous things that seem to be lumped in with slavery that actually have nothing to do with slavery. Those things that get lumped in are by and large the worst part of it all.

Slavery itself, (ie, a person being bound in servitude to another), is not all that bad. It's certainly not an ideal situation, but often times it was a better situation than the alternative.

But, I'm being fairly vague. So let me get more specific.

In OT times people were living under very harsh conditions. People and their families faced almost certain death quite often. Regardless of the reason why some families faced sure death, there only option at times was either to die or to promise themselves (and their family) to work in servitude to another family in exchange for food/shelter and so forth. The choice was very often their own choice. From the slave owner's perspective, he also isn't necessarily in a great situation where he can have people mooching off of him. So getting a 5 or 7 year commitment from someone makes it worthwhile for him as well. They are sort of safeguards both ways around.

In this form, slavery is more of an indentured servitude. The OT does have some laws protecting slaves. It has some laws limiting the amount of time slaves can be owned, and so forth. I think overall the laws are things that we would mostly agree on are good to have in the sense that without the laws, slaves might be ruthlessly dealt with. The argument of course then is why not say all slavery is wrong in all circumstances? I'll get to that lower. But for now, it's sufficient to say that laws that protect some are much better than no laws at all.

Now onto some stuff that gets "bundled with slavery" that really has nothing to do with slavery. The most common thing is ruthlessly beating a person, or simply killing someone that's a slave. Now this is clearly immoral. All through the bible man is told not to abuse other men. This doesn't somehow not apply to other men that are slaves, servants, people under their authority, children, spouses, neighbors, etc... it applies to everyone. So a man who beats his slave or his child without cause is committing a sin, but the problem isn't having a slave or having a child in this case, rather the problem is abusing someone.

So realizing that abusing someone is a separate concern that slavery, the issue of slavery becomes an issue of "freedom". In OT times, as I mentioned, people freely put themselves into slavery. So we can hardly say it's unfair if they put themselves into that situation. Nor could we hardly say it's unfair if it gives a family a chance at life where the alternative was certain death.

But still there's a feeling that taking away someone's freedom is still wrong. And this I think I still somewhat agree with. But slavery isn't nearly the only thing that takes away our freedom. The simple fact of today is that in order to survive at any real quality of life in america, people need to work and maintain a job. Our employers do in fact take away some of our freedoms. Now certainly we can leave our employers, but depending on what field your in, you may have just lost your one opportunity for a decent job. So we willingly put ourselves under the authority of others quite often. The biggest difference is that we don't have to wait 7 years to quit a job. If you can imagine times being MUCH worse, such as during the great depression... people would be a lot more appreciative to get to work for someone for the rest of their life if it meant they could provide for their family.

But another example of where we are under someone's authority is the government we live under. Governments dictate a lot of stuff to us, they tell us what we're allowed to do, they take some of our money, and so forth.

There are just numerous accounts in present time where we are under the authority of other people. And this is a similar setup to slavery.

In the NT a few places we are told that it is better not to have slaves. And it's pretty logically seen in the OT as well. God also said it was better not to have governments. But the reality of times and a sinful world is that slavery & governments are sometimes the only way we seem to be able to handle certain situations. If everyone did as God wished, then we would all enjoy a great deal of freedom, love, joy, peace and so forth.

In short... slavery itself, or the idea of taking away someone's freedom for a set amount of time, is not ideal, but at times the better option. And slavery itself is not the abuse of another person, which is clearly the worst thing we think about with respect to slavery. But yes, abuse is horrible & immoral. God tells us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. That commandment is to all our relationships with people, so slave owners are commanded to love their slaves just as much as they love themselves. If you can imagine a slave owner that did love his slaves that much, then I think you can imagine those slaves being quite content in their job.

There are some rational reasons I think why God & Jesus didn't tell people to try to stop all slavery or stop all governments and so forth... but that's another topic.
 
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neocon

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Whether we like it or not some people are always going to be dominated by others. The most that can be hoped for is that those who Rule are Paternalistic rather than Exploitative. For example prior to the States War slave holders in the Southern States treated their servants FAR better on average than Yankee industrialists treated their nominally free employees in the ever so moral North.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Danhalen said:
Can one be a slave by one's own volition? By the above comment, it seems to me that you have substituted one form of slavery for another. By your own admission, you are a slave to Jesus, coming from your former master "Sin". Is this where the ambiguity comes from?
No. The ambiguity comes from our level on knowledge, ignorance, purpose, and conditions. Even slavery did not place Joseph (OT) out of the reach of God's purpose in providing for them in a time of famine. Joseph neither volunteered nor crumbled in the slavery that his brothers placed him. So am I so sure of my understanding to say that God's way used an immoral method? No... there are some things that are not inherently wicked and some things that are in a sense a mystery. The good or bad in history regarding slavery is one for me.
This is a very good point that you have made. It does leave the door open to moral ambiguity. If slavery was once considered a system that was not immoral, but now it is, it seems that morality is ambiguous in general. Hindsight is the key determining factor for us, and you are wise to point that out. However, if it was once morally acceptable, what has changed that makes it morally reprehensible now?
For me, it comes down to the state of man and the lessons that we must learn. Just as a child is brought up with more 'rules' and freedoms, I see a parallel with mankind. If you look at the Old Testament, in the beginning there were few commands. Later, after mankind established a history to reflect upon, God increased to those laws and showed us what was good and what was not. Even later, Jesus showed us that even by having those revelations, it did not save us and we tend to 'manipulate' the letter to do as we please regardless. The law (scripture) is still used by Christians today, but we are not 'under' the law nor are we in a state of lawlessness. The law is good for teaching righteousness and a tool by which we can measure ourselves. What makes it reprehensible now? Where our maturity shoudl be based on the lessons and growth that comes from our age (or history).
Another important observation that I did not include in the OP. Having different upbringing would definately color ones opinion on this matter. If the opinions differ, and are equally valid, how can we say that either is correct?

With many things, I must be careful to qualify my words. It is too easy to have someone push what I sloppily try to say into something else. I am not advocating for slavery, but merely giving the best balance that I can to my observance.
Let's take slavery in the founding of America...
Do I think that people that owned slaves back then were immoral? I can't say with a sweeping rule. I can say that to go to another country and take people by force in order to make them slaves is immoral, but the actual ownership of slaves is not so clear to me. Would my black brothers and sisters be Christian today if those things did not come to pass? I can't say yes or no. Were all slave owners wicked men that beat and mistreated? I can't say yes to that and there were situations where slaves were granted freedom. Would it be moral for all Christians or people that may be considered 'good' to abstain from owning? Perhaps, but then only the wicked would have owned slaves and that would have been bad too.
I tend to view it that the things that happened, happened for a reason and out of the fire of trials and hardship, comes fine gold.

Do I think slavery is acceptable today? Definitely not.
 
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UberLutheran

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neocon said:
Whether we like it or not some people are always going to be dominated by others. The most that can be hoped for is that those who Rule are Paternalistic rather than Exploitative. For example prior to the States War slave holders in the Southern States treated their servants FAR better on average than Yankee industrialists treated their nominally free employees in the ever so moral North.

Somehow, I have a feeling that images such as this:

200px-Slavetreatment.jpe

showing the deeply scarred back of a slave which had been beaten severely;

and articles such as these:

http://www.answers.com/topic/african-american-history

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2956.html

http://www.sciway.net/afam/slavery/life.html

probably show a divergence from the depiction of the idyllic life of a Southern antebellum slave provided to us by historical revisionists and some dominionists who would like to go back to the "good old days" of Deuteronomy and Leviticus (where owning slaves was the order of the day).
 
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I wouldn't be against turning prisoners into slaves, which in some places has been instituted to a point (and works quite nicely), but besides that, I don't see other forms of slavery as being too useful. Machines suffice for a lot of our needs.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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UberLutheran said:
... historical revisionists and some dominionists who would like to go back to the "good old days" of Deuteronomy and Leviticus (where owning slaves was the order of the day).

Yes, no doubt that wicked things happened. But to tie that with 'good old days' of Deuteronomy and Leviticus does injustice to the scriptures. There were very specific laws regarding slaves there and justice and mercy is contained in Jewish scripture as well.
 
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UberLutheran

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ChristianCenturion said:
Yes, no doubt that wicked things happened. But to tie that with 'good old days' of Deuteronomy and Leviticus does injustice to the scriptures. There were very specific laws regarding slaves there and justice and mercy is contained in Jewish scripture as well.

The Scriptures are very specific about stoning to death:
-- disobedient children;
-- anybody who worshipped a different god;
-- anybody who worked on a Sabbath (including foreigners);
-- any "wizard" or "magician"

and the owner of a slave could be punished for beating his slave ONLY if the slave died after three days (because the slave was the owner's property).

And that is EXACTLY the place where many dominionists want to take us, whether we like it or not.
 
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UberLutheran said:
The Scriptures are very specific about stoning to death:
-- disobedient children;
-- anybody who worshipped a different god;
-- anybody who worked on a Sabbath (including foreigners);
-- any "wizard" or "magician"

and the owner of a slave could be punished for beating his slave ONLY if the slave died after three days (because the slave was the owner's property).

And that is EXACTLY the place where many dominionists want to take us, whether we like it or not.

Confuzzled. Are you saying God was wrong when he instituted these rules?
 
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Ninja Turtles

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Oh man, slaves had it good back in the early America, what with being property and all and getting lashes in their back to the point where it was all scarred. They also did things like beat a person senseless then tie him up in a tree so the birds could pick at the wounds.

Slavery was no fun.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Confuzzled. Are you saying God was wrong when he instituted these rules?

Yes, I was curious to that as well. Its not every day that I see a Christian second guessing God. :confused:
 
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neocon

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UberLutheran said:
...........................probably show a divergence from the depiction of the idyllic life of a Southern antebellum slave ........................


Uber you know bloody well I did not say that the life of a pre States War slave was 'idyllic'. What I did say/do was point out that the Yankee industrialists managed to make lots of money treating their employees as less than domesticated animals (what farmer would turn his mule out to starve because there was no field to plow that week) while climbing on a moral high horse of indignation in regard to the South's peculiar institution. The stats of health/diet/longevity show that compared to Northern industrial workers, European workers/peasants or Africans in Africa the Southern slave comes off quite well.
 
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kedaman

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Danhalen said:
Back in the day (Jesus times), slavery was permissible. I am not certain, but I think I recall that there are rules in the bible for how to handle your slaves. That being said, is it immoral to own another human being? Please give your reasons for believing why or why not slavery is immoral.

I, for one, do believe that it is immoral. I think that the basis of all rights begins with ourselves having the freedom to choose how we wish to live. A life of voluntary servitude is not the same as being born, and then taught that you are to live a life of servitude. Even under the assumption that the master of the slave will provide shelter and sustenance for the slave, should not the slave have the choice to live that way?
I think it is morally contingent, but I agree on the matter of having freedom to choose how we wish to live, but I also think its an oxymoron to demand that such freedom is to be respected by others, then we are not truly free, but in fact asserting that we are slaves to those who we wish would respect our freedom.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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kedaman said:
I think it is morally contingent, but I agree on the matter of having freedom to choose how we wish to live, but I also think its an oxymoron to demand that such freedom is to be respected by others, then we are not truly free, but in fact asserting that we are slaves to those who we wish would respect our freedom.

Reminiscent of Thomas Paine's "Common Sense".
Rule by consent doesn't mean that everyone agrees.
 
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