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Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!

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PhantomGaze

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To me this seems akin to a child's lack of understanding why parents don't just buy mountains of candy and yacts, or insist on broccoli at dinner rather than ice cream. I can imagine such a simple, and ungrateful child. "If they really loved me, they would give me ice cream for dinner." Yet there is so much about the world they don't understand.
 
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PhantomGaze

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As an interesting aside, Galileo himself actually argued that the moon causing the ocean's tide was "occult nonsense", because he believed the tides were caused by the rotation of the Earth.
 
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Halbhh

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The trouble with putting a pet theory above reality is it tends to prevent seeing what is in front of you.

You want to aim to do the more difficult thing -- instead test your theory against more information. Not just trying to find information that supports it, but instead the scientific method --

To try to find information that could disprove it.

Yourself. For you yourself to look for information to disprove it. I could offer as I already did to you above just yesterday information, but only you can do the work of considering what might not fit a theory you'd have preferred.

Without testing your theory to find if some facts/reality disprove it, you merely would continue with a faulty idea others have already seen through and moved on from.
 
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Halbhh

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From your mouth to your ears.
Amen for that one.

Every day I seek out new information that helps me sift and challenge old theories, to seek out better understanding.

So that sometimes old theories may go into the trash can, no matter if they are 2 days old or 2 years, or 20.

What about you? Do you seek to find what might challenge your own favorite old theories and viewpoints?

Most people do the opposite -- seeking to filter reality and ignore what might contradict old ideas.
 
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But this isn't philosophy. It's simple observation. Why the people who wrote the Bible approved of slavery - or, if you prefer, why God does - is no doubt an interesting question, a complex question, and one that I would welcome advice and input on. But the fact that the writers of the Bible, whoever they were, obviously did approve of slavery is simply not in doubt, and piling on rationalisations, extra theories and dubious interpretations is simply unwarranted.

Sorry, what is it you think seems akin to parents insisting on their children eating broccoli rather than ice cream? A book of moral instructions which tells people they should buy other humans, force them to serve them, and punish them brutally on a whim?
In this case, there is a simple explanation which even a child would understand: ice cream is bad for you. There is no such explanation for condoning and indeed encouraging slavery.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Well I used to be a Christian, so ... yeah, I've challenged my cherished beliefs.
 
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Halbhh

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PhantomGaze

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Yes often times simple observations have complex explanations. What's so unique about that?


So once again you're arguing that explanations are only correct if they're simple? I thought we just went through this.
 
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But that's exactly what I do. I come on here, announce my theories, test them against the best that Christians can offer - and find, not to my great surprise, that Christians arguments tend to fail. As we've seen in this thread.
 
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Yes often times simple observations have complex explanations. What's so unique about that?
Nothing. The question of whether or not the Bible approves of slavery is a very simple one. Obviously, it does, as has been shown in this thread. What's your problem with that?
So once again you're arguing that explanations are only correct if they're simple? I thought we just went through this.
where did I say that? You've misunderstood me. Of course an explanation may be simple or complex, depending on the thing it consistently s explaining. But it does seem to be a general pattern that atheists pointing out mistakes or contradictions in the Bible make simple arguments that are easily proven, whereas Christians, in trying to defend them, are forced to make complex arguments to account for all of the extra difficulties their arguments cause for their own side - and which still , eventually , fail.
It's also interesting to see that you seem unable to respond to my argument above. Have we all agreed, then, that God does approve of slavery?
 
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gaara4158

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I should hope that the writers were not so naive as to suppose the slaves actually enjoyed their social status (as some of the apologists for American slavery were), but what we're looking for is outright condemnation of the institution itself. I don't think we'll find that. If you're suggesting that God sometimes uses extant evils of the world to punish his disobedient followers, and that could be a reason God doesn't order the immediate abolition of slavery upon first mention, then it appears God may sometimes find inhumane treatment acceptable. I think punishment has its place, but I don't now if I'm so edgy as to say Biblical slavery - especially of the sort Jews practiced when owning heathens - is an acceptable form of it.

I don't think you take any of your positions willy-nilly, Philo, and that's why I enjoy discussing these things with you. I didn't mean to suggest either of us was taking one of the lazy ways out, just pointing out that there are more than a few ways to lazily toss this issue away for either side. I can absolutely lay out why I feel my pragmatic approach to ethics is, if not wholly sufficient and satisfying to some people, still more defensible than the alternatives grounded on religious beliefs that ultimately rely on a battery of philosophical arguments being successful before the moral element can even be discussed.

You're probably right about what this will boil down to, but it'll be a fun exercise nonetheless. To put it briefly, I believe morality/ethics, whatever you want to call it, is derived from what humans as social creatures naturally value in a society, and the aggregate of these values can be summed up as “maximal human flourishing.” Note that this isn’t followed by “by any means necessary.” If it were, we would be vulnerable to utilitarian solutions to social issues based on the exploitation of a minority group for the benefit of the majority (slavery and eugenics come to mind quickly). Instead, we add the caveat that whatever society we construct based around the goal of human flourishing, it should be one in which we would be willing to participate from any social status. This is referred to as the veil of uncertainty, and it runs on the same principle as the old rule of fairness stating that the one who cuts the cake should get the last choice of piece. Every step of the way, we are just setting up a practical system by which to achieve our shared goal.

Divine Command, on the other hand, rests on the existence and moral authority of God, both of which take a lot of work to demonstrate and I don’t think it’s ever been done successfully.
 
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Halbhh

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But that's exactly what I do. I come on here, announce my theories, test them against the best that Christians can offer - and find, not to my great surprise, that Christians arguments tend to fail. As we've seen in this thread.

The end of slavery, shown in the new Testament, as pointed out above, which you must have missed?

It's hard to see what you don't open your eyes to see.
 
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PhantomGaze

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If the truth is complex, a simple view of it will often lead to a misunderstanding. In the case of God or even the Bible approving of slavery, I actually addressed this when I first entered the thread. But to sum it up more succinctly for you:

The pre-christian world approved of slavery.
The Bible didn't directly challenge slavery.
The logical extension of Christian thought has led us in the modern world to reject it.
The larger narrative of the Bible has led us to reject it.

So no. God does not approve of slavery. I think that's pretty clear.

Further, if we indict Christianity on its own conclusions, we lose the basis upon which those conclusions are made.

I hope that's concise enough.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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...well, I guess we'll never get to all those other discussions we could have about whether God driven judgments [whatever the form] are justified. We'll have to save those for some other rain-day.

ok. But as you do, make sure to keep it tied in support of the locus of the OP.

I've heard that term somewhere before ...

And from where did you get this idea about the "veil of uncertainty"? It almost sounds like it was lifted from Joh................. Oops! I'll have to let you tell me your source.

Divine Command, on the other hand, rests on the existence and moral authority of God, both of which take a lot of work to demonstrate and I don’t think it’s ever been done successfully.
I guess it's a good thing I don't go in for old fashioned Divine Command ethics, isn't it?
 
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The end of slavery, shown in the new Testament, as pointed out above, which you must have missed?

It's hard to see what you don't open your eyes to see.
Perhaps you were unaware that slavery flourished in both the Old and New Testament times, and that the New Testament supported it?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
This short article explains Christian support of slavery clearly.
 
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Halbhh

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Perhaps you were unaware that slavery flourished in both the Old and New Testament times, and that the New Testament supported it?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
This short article explains Christian support of slavery clearly.

It's basic knowledge everyone has that slavery was historically around the world, and much more recent in times that slave owners in the U.S. in the 19th century had the kind of see-what-I-want-to-see view of the bible, and even created a highly censored "slaves Bible" in order to help control their slaves.

You could learn a lot of new things in this thread, if you'd not assume you already know all things about the Bible and slavery and what Christians today understand (so as to think it worth while to even read what we are saying).
 
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You know, if it was true that God really does approve of slavery, that God thinks owning and abusing a human being is a good thing, that would be a terrible problem for Christians, because it shows that God supports evil.
So I really do understand why you don't want to admit it. But the Bible is quite clear. God does support slavery. You are unable to show evidence that He condemns it, and unable to discredit the parts of the Bible that support slavery. That, I'm sure, is unfortunate. But there we are. The question has been answered. If you can't accept that, then say so.
 
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Halbhh

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Perhaps you were unaware that slavery flourished in both the Old and New Testament times, and that the New Testament supported it?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
This short article explains Christian support of slavery clearly.

Instead of trying to guess (mind reading?) about what we know and don't know, as you said to me to let you know if you make the error of 'mind reading'...

Instead of that, look at posts like:

#61, 63, 65 (link: Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!)
and
#38 in this thread (link: Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!)
 
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