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Slavery, a Guide

Silly Uncle Wayne

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Like in 1861? Lets not wait until they are the majority.
I agree... but how is that going to happen?

The only ones promoting slavery are non-Christians like the author of this web site or atheists who insist that Christians who support the Bible therefore support this form of slavery (no matter how much they deny it).

If people followed the truth of Jesus, there would be no issue. Jesus may never have said 'don't enslave others', but his whole life - word and deed - was about laying down your own life to benefit others, particularly those that the rest of society despised. If people are seeking Jesus with a whole heart, then slavery will never reoccur.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Thanks, I missed that... but did you actually look there yourself?

Pro slavery Bible verses - not surprising given the subject matter, but if you look through this, it is clearly a case of cherry-picking verses to support an argument, rather than engaging with all the verses on the subject.

Pro slavery Christian books - the most recent book given was published in 1864. It wouldn't even be modern had it been published in 1964! This isn't 'modern slavery'

Pro slavery Christian sermons - here the most recent is 1861, again this is not modern.

Pro slavery religious articles - we are up to 1903 now, and an article about negroes! No idea what it says, but the likelihood that the author is still around to defend his views is extremely slim.

Pro slavery Christian quotes - Again, there appears to be nothing that is actually modern at all (there is even a quote from Augustine of Hippo).

There is nothing here about any Christian advocating slavery in the modern world. At best it is an advocate of slavery trying to use Christianity to bolster their views. (read the about blurb and it is clear that the author is not motivated by a Christian faith).
We have been through this. It does not matter what you think the bible does or does not say about slavery. The fact is people can use it today to support slavery. If there was a clear statement that said do not own others as property, it is a sin then they could not do that.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I agree... but how is that going to happen?

The only ones promoting slavery are non-Christians like the author of this web site or atheists who insist that Christians who support the Bible therefore support this form of slavery (no matter how much they deny it).

If people followed the truth of Jesus, there would be no issue. Jesus may never have said 'don't enslave others', but his whole life - word and deed - was about laying down your own life to benefit others, particularly those that the rest of society despised. If people are seeking Jesus with a whole heart, then slavery will never reoccur.
Yet people that did follow Jesus and were Christians used the Bible to defend slavery.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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We have been through this. It does not matter what you think the bible does or does not say about slavery. The fact is people can use it today to support slavery. If there was a clear statement that said do not own others as property, it is a sin then they could not do that.
You posted a list of 10 commitments a while back and taking a look at those again, I see no clear statement that says do not own others as property either. So. does that then mean that humanists support slavery?

I'm putting that as a rhetorical question, because the answer is clearly no and if you start to examine the commitments they say things that would clearly make the mistreatment of others a bad thing... which if you go into the same level of detail on Christianity is also true.

The only people alive that I have come across so far using the Bible to support slavery are non-Christians. I'm still waiting for you to find me a 'modern' Christian advocate of slavery that I can debate with.

The truth is that the ONLY people today who think that the Bible supports Antebellum slavery are not Christians and it is only non-Christians who are trying to persuade anyone that the Bible supports slavery.

In fact, atheists are attempting to shore up the notion that the Bible supports Antebellum slavery and are expressly arguing against the very people who would disagree with that view, the people who would speak up in opposition to such a thing.

If you want to prevent Christians from ever perpetrating such acts ever again, you should be seeking out the Christians who oppose slavery (pretty much all of them) attempt to understand why they do so and support them in their views (on slavery - it doesn't require assent to everything Christianity says and does) rather than trying to undermine their endeavours.

Shalom
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Yet people that did follow Jesus and were Christians used the Bible to defend slavery.

And people who followed Jesus and were Christians used the Bible to oppose slavery.

Now take a look at history and ask which of those groups of Christians won the argument?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You posted a list of 10 commitments a while back and taking a look at those again, I see no clear statement that says do not own others as property either. So. does that then mean that humanists support slavery?

I'm putting that as a rhetorical question, because the answer is clearly no and if you start to examine the commitments they say things that would clearly make the mistreatment of others a bad thing... which if you go into the same level of detail on Christianity is also true.
Yet nowhere in the ten commitments does it give rules for slavery.

The only people alive that I have come across so far using the Bible to support slavery are non-Christians. I'm still waiting for you to find me a 'modern' Christian advocate of slavery that I can debate with.

The truth is that the ONLY people today who think that the Bible supports Antebellum slavery are not Christians and it is only non-Christians who are trying to persuade anyone that the Bible supports slavery.

In fact, atheists are attempting to shore up the notion that the Bible supports Antebellum slavery and are expressly arguing against the very people who would disagree with that view, the people who would speak up in opposition to such a thing.

If you want to prevent Christians from ever perpetrating such acts ever again, you should be seeking out the Christians who oppose slavery (pretty much all of them) attempt to understand why they do so and support them in their views (on slavery - it doesn't require assent to everything Christianity says and does) rather than trying to undermine their endeavours.

Shalom
Stop talking about Antebellum slavery. I have said many times even if the bible condones a "good" slavery it still gives rules for slavery and owning others as property. It is immoral no matter if it supports Antebellum slavery or not.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Yet nowhere in the ten commitments does it give rules for slavery.

Which means that it is OK then? (I'm just following the same line of reasoning that atheists here are presenting every time I say that Christianity cannot be used to encourage slavery)

Stop talking about Antebellum slavery. I have said many times even if the bible condones a "good" slavery it still gives rules for slavery and owning others as property. It is immoral no matter if it supports Antebellum slavery or not.

You've just made my point for me! I've spent a lot of time trying to tell you that the Hebrew idea of people as property is not what Hebrew slavery is about and you tell me it is. Who is supporting the notion that the Bible supports slavery and who is opposing it?
 
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cvanwey

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Which means that it is OK then? (I'm just following the same line of reasoning that atheists here are presenting every time I say that Christianity cannot be used to encourage slavery)

Yes, it is okay then. You seem to be missing something major and obvious...

If the Bible never mentions the topic of "slavery" at all, then you may feel you have as much clout to stand behind your given assumption. But in reality, you have none.

The Bible does mention the topic. And in doing so, it gives the following instructions to it's readers:

"You may buy slaves, and make them property for life." This is apparently a God provided instruction. Unless you wish to now admit such instruction could not come from God?


If the Bible instead stated, "you may not buy slaves, and make them property for life" -- this would also be an instruction.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Yes, it is okay then. You seem to be missing something major and obvious...

If the Bible never mentions the topic of "slavery" at all, then you may feel you have as much clout to stand behind your given assumption. But in reality, you have none.

The Bible does mention the topic. And in doing so, it gives the following instructions to it's readers:

"You may buy slaves, and make them property for life." This is apparently a God provided instruction. Unless you wish to now admit such instruction could not come from God?


If the Bible instead stated, "you may not buy slaves, and make them property for life" -- this would also be an instruction.

The verse you quote is not an instruction (and neither is what your own law), it is a concession.

An instruction would be something that enforces what is being said, either by making it a command (e.g. do not murder) or giving a dire consequence. Something like Whoever kidnaps someone and sells him, or is caught still holding him, must surely be put to death.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Imagine for a moment Mr Gullible is surfing through these threads. He reads Cvanwey's post above and concludes that the Bible says slavery is acceptable so he starts a campaign to restart slavery.

It wasn't because he read that for himself and it wasn't because any Christian told it to him. It was because an atheist thought that it was true and wanted everyone else to agree with him on the matter.

I would hope that you would much rather Mr Gullible read my post above where I indicate that Bible does not support slavery and go away and continue in that thought, and yet so far from your responses to my post this point has not sunken in:

The only people saying that the Bible supports enslavement of people today are non-Christians.
 
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There is nothing here about any Christian advocating slavery in the modern world. At best it is an advocate of slavery trying to use Christianity to bolster their views. (read the about blurb and it is clear that the author is not motivated by a Christian faith).
Perhaps you're not aware, but the word "modern" in history means "after medieval". In other words, modern history is any time in the last five hundred years or so. Slavery has certainly been practiced and promoted by Christians in modern times.

The only ones promoting slavery are non-Christians like the author of this web site or atheists who insist that Christians who support the Bible therefore support this form of slavery (no matter how much they deny it).
Yes. Christians are inconsistent in applying the Bible. What else is new?

You posted a list of 10 commitments a while back and taking a look at those again, I see no clear statement that says do not own others as property either. So. does that then mean that humanists support slavery?
No, but it would do if it had a statement about how humanists are allowed to own slaves, as the Bible does, on a number of occasions.

The only people alive that I have come across so far using the Bible to support slavery are non-Christians. I'm still waiting for you to find me a 'modern' Christian advocate of slavery that I can debate with.
What makes you think you'd be up to the task? You haven't even managed to win a debate against a dead proponent of slavery.

If you want to prevent Christians from ever perpetrating such acts ever again, you should be seeking out the Christians who oppose slavery (pretty much all of them) attempt to understand why they do so and support them in their views (on slavery - it doesn't require assent to everything Christianity says and does) rather than trying to undermine their endeavours.
We want Christians to understand that their holy book has an inconsistent morality. In order to do this, we need to point out the inconsistencies (done), challenge Christians to address them (done) and then watch them fail to do this (done).

And people who followed Jesus and were Christians used the Bible to oppose slavery.
They would have liked to use the Bible to oppose slavery. But since all mentions of slavery in the Bible are either about permitting it or even actively endorsing it, they weren't able to.

Now take a look at history and ask which of those groups of Christians won the argument?
The abolitionists did. Unfortunately, they were not able to win by arguments based on the Bible, and so had to resort to a long and bloody war to do so.

The verse you quote is not an instruction (and neither is what your own law), it is a concession.
It doesn't need to be an instruction. It's approving permission. Think of it like this: if a law was passed saying that you were allowed to murder people, and someone did so, would you then be able to put them on trial by saying "Well, the law may say that you CAN murder people, but it's not an INSTRUCTION to do so." Of course you couldn't.

Imagine for a moment Mr Gullible is surfing through these threads. He reads Cvanwey's post above and concludes that the Bible says slavery is acceptable so he starts a campaign to restart slavery. It wasn't because he read that for himself and it wasn't because any Christian told it to him. It was because an atheist thought that it was true and wanted everyone else to agree with him on the matter.
It would indeed be gullible to believe whatever you read at first glance. But it's quite believable that a Christian might stumble upon this thread and be surprised to learn that the Bible is pro-slavery. One would hope they would then check the Bible itself to see what it says, and perhaps read some of this thread to see what people are saying about it.

Christian: What? The Bible is pro-slavery? Surely not. That can't be right!
...
Oh...those verses the atheists are quoting are actually in the Bible. They didn't make them up! I can't believe I never heard about them in church before!
Still, surely there must be an explanation for this. This Wayne guy seems pretty confident. He's really fighting back! Come on, Wayne - you show these atheists why they're wrong.
...
Wayne? Come on - aren't you going to address the points? I mean, I know Jesus was all about love, and that's great - but what about these verses? I mean, you actually have God and His people saying good things about slavery. That can't be right! Can't you address those, Wayne?
...
Pastor? A pastor? Oh, good, he'll have something to say about slavery. What's that? He's in favour of it? That can't be right. What does he say? Oh...he's taking verses from all over the Bible and making a speech about how they all fit together. Oh dear...
...
Wayne is saying Warren is stupid and all wrong. Well, good, Wayne, but can't you say why?
...
Wayne, can't you help me here? I need you to explain WHY Warren is wrong. Surely he must have got the verses wrong or something. Why aren't you tackling him?
...
Wayne?
 
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@Silly Uncle Wayne , let's review a few arguments, and invite you to respond to them. Please do explain which parts of this you find incorrect, and on what authority you disagree with the Bible, with the prophets of God, with the disciples, and with Jesus Himself on the question of slavery.

Slavery forms a vital element of the Divine Revelation to man. Its institution, regulation, and perpetuity, constitute a part of many of the books of the Bible.

God instituted it in the days of Noah, and gave it His sanction again at Mt. Sinai. His Son commended it during his ministry on earth. The holy apostle Paul, exhorted his son Timothy to preach it; and Peter teaches a most important precept as to its obligations.

If God, through Noah, after the flood, and at Sinai, through the Law—if Christ during his ministry, and the apostles in their writings, instituted, regulated and promulgated slavery—it is not less imperative on me, to “declare the whole counsel of God” on this subject, than it is on any other, which the wise and beneficent Creator has seen proper to reveal to man.

...

More than two thousand years before the christian era, slavery was instituted by decree of heaven, and published to the world by Noah, a “preacher of righteousness.” Here is the decree, Genesis 9:25-27, “Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants, shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, blessed be the Lord God of Shem, and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.” The Jews descended from Shem, the Europeans and Americans from Japheth, the Africans from Ham, the father of Canaan.

To show that the above language was the announcement of heaven’s decree concerning slavery, and that Noah was speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, we have only to refer to its explanation and fulfillment by the descendants of Shem, as recorded in the 25th chapter of Leviticus. God gave to Abraham, a descendant of Shem, and to his seed after him the land of the Canaanites, into the possession of which they came in the days of Joshua. After the children of Israel came into the possession of the land, God gave them the following instruction as to bringing the people into bondage: “Both thy bond men and thy bond maids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you (these were the descendants of Canaan, and hence called Canaanites), of them shall ye BUY BOND MEN AND BOND MAIDS. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your possessions. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for possession; they shall be your bond men forever.” (verses 44-46)

Here is a decree from the Creator, giving to one man the right of holding another in involuntary servitude. Man holding his fellow man as his property, and enjoined to perpetuate that property by inheritance to his children, forever.

Three points are here gained.

1. The establishment of slavery by divine decree.
2. The right to buy and sell men and women into bondage.
3. The perpetuity of the institution by the same authority.

A theocratic government, that is, one in which God, as the ruler, gives immediate direction, was established over the Israelites and continued for about four hundred years. The government was fully organized at Mount Sinai. The Constitution (called the Decalogue) given on that occasion, is considered the basis of all good law, and the standard of moral action, in every age of the world down to the present time – it is as of universal application as the gospel of Christ. It guarantees to the slaveholder the peaceable and unmolested right to his slave property, in language as emphatic as does the Constitution of the United States. Hear its enactment on this subject.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife, nor his MAN SERVANT, not his MAID SERVANT, nor his ox, nor his ass, not anything that is thy neighbor’s”

Is a man entitled to the unmolested occupation of his house? This Divine Constitution guarantees to him the same right to his servants. Has any man the right to interfere with the domestic relation of husband and wife? Equally secure is the relation of master and servant made by this enactment of heaven. Should a man’s right to the exclusive and perpetual possession of his ox, or his ass, or of any other property of which he may be possessed, be secured to him by constitutional enactment? No more so, determined the unerring wisdom of the most high God, than the right of masters to their slaves.

Had God, the Great Law Giver, been opposed to slavery, he would perhaps have said, “thou shalt not hold property in man: thou shalt not enslave thy fellow being, for all men are born free and equal.” Instead of reproving the sin of covetousness, he would have denounced the sin of slavery; but instead of this denunciation, when He became the Ruler of his people, He established, regulated and perpetuated slavery by special enactment, and guaranteed the unmolested rights of masters to their slaves by Constitutional provision.

...

The blessed Saviour descended from a slave-holder, Abraham. This “father of the faithful,” held as many bondmen, “born in his house and bought with his money,” as perhaps any slaveholder in the South. When he was chosen out, as the one “in whom all the families of the earth should be blessed,” not a word of Divine disapprobation, on account of his being a slave-holder was uttered.

His descendants, the Jews, up to the time of their national dispersion, were as emphatically a slave-holding people as we Georgians are.

The only qualification which is due to this remark, is founded on the captivity and wars which robbed them of much of their property. Such was the case when the Saviour came among them.

He reproved them for their sins. Calling them the works of the flesh and of the devil. He denounced idolatry, covetousness, adultery, fornification, hypocrisy, and many other sins of less moral turpitude, but never once reproved them for holding slaves; though He alluded to it frequently, yet never with an expression of the slightest disapprobation.

...

The following language is said by Paul, to be the teachings of our Saviour … Let those whose are under the yoke, as bondmen, esteem their masters worthy of all honor, lest reproach be brought upon the name of God and his doctrine – and let those whose masters are believers, not despise them because they are brethren, but serve them with the more subjection, because they who claim the benefit (of their labor) are believing and beloved. THUS TEACH AND EXHORT.” – 1 Tim. 6:1-3

Here we are taught:

1. That the disciples of Christ held slaves.
2. That this slavery was in accordance with the doctrine or teachings of God.
3. That a failure on the part of they servants to esteem their masters worthy of honor, or obedience, was considered by Christ, a reproach to the name and doctrine of God. Because He had commanded it, and whosoever disobeyed reproached his Maker.
4. That christianity did not oblige the master to liberate his slave, but upon the contrary bound the slave to serve his master with the “more subjection.” …

Lastly, Timothy was enjoined by Paul to explain and enforce in his ministry the above instructions of Christ.

...

Eph. 6:5-8. Servants, (Bondsmen,) be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling with singleness of heart, as unto Christ; not with eye service as men pleasers; but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with good will doing service, as unto the Lord and not to men, knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

These facts are here taught.

1. That slaves are required by their religious obligations, to obey their masters. The master then has a corresponding right to command, else the servant would be under no obligation to obey – slavery is here endorsed as divinely right, because to the master is given the divine right to command.

Then the Divine right to slavery is here expressly given – but God never grants to any man the divine right to sin. Therefore slavery is not sin.

2. That in obeying the master, the slave is obeying Christ. “In singleness of your heart as unto Christ – doing the will of God from the heart!” A cheerful and hearty obedience to the master is a part of the slaves duty to God. His religion enjoins it. But his obligation depends upon his servitude – were there no servitude there would be no obligation. If the servitude is wrong and wicked, then the obligation is of no force, it is only the command of an usurper – who violates the natural rights of man. But God says the servant is bound not alone by the superior will of the master, but by Divine law, to obey from the heart, his masters commandments – God’s law binds no man to sin, or to do wrong at the command of another, but requires him to avoid the very appearance of evil. His commendation of slavery is here found in his enforcement of its obligations.

3. The apostle also teaches the truth here that God will reward the slave for his faithfulness to this master.

So profoundly is Paul impressed with the right of masters to control, and the duty of slaves to obey, that he urges upon Titus, (2:9-10) a young minister, as one of the sacred obligations of his high office, to “exhort servants to be obedient to their own masters, and to please them well in all things, not answering again (i.e. not replying to or questioning the master’s right) not purloining (i.e. not stealing) but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.” It is remarkable that this apostle should invariably conclude his exhortation to servants, by appealing to their obligations to God, as the incentive to obedience and faithfulness to their masters, clearly proving that disobedience to masters is rebellion against God. Hitherto, Paul has not, in so many words, given any instruction as to the duty of servants towards masters whose deportment to them is harsh and oppressive. I refer, therefore, for specific instruction upon this subject, to the writings of another apostle (1 Peter 2:18,19). “Servants, be subject to your masters, with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward, for this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God, endure grief and suffering wrongfully.”

Here is the inspired injunction making it the duty of a bondman, which is to be performed in good conscience toward God, to submit quietly to the ill treatment of a churlish or bad tempered master. This obligation of the slave does not rest upon the right of his master thus to treat him, for he has no such right, either moral or legal, but is bound to “give unto them that which is just and equal;” but the servants obligation is derived from the moral and religious duty, which binds him to be faithful to God and man.

I have now proven clearly from the sacred pages of inspiration,

1. That slavery was instituted by God, who accompanied it with his decree making it perpetual.
2. That Christ recognized its existence, enforced its obligations, and regulated its connections.
3. That Paul and Peter, inspired apostles, elaborated upon the subject, and showed the religious obligations under which servants are bound to obey their masters.

...

I desire to meet one plausible, but specious objection to slavery, urged by the abolitionists before I take my seat.

It is said that one single passage in the gospel, imperatively requires every master at once to emancipate his slaves. It is recorded in Mat. 7:12. “Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.”

it is thought, that if the master would desire liberty, were he a slave, he is bound by this rule, to liberate his slave. But his argument is specious, and this construction, if applied to the various relations of life will subvert all the laws and regulations of society and governments.

A criminal is arraigned, tried and found guilty of a violationof the law – but the judge would not desire to be punished were he in the criminal’s place – is he bound therefore to release him? ….

A desire entertained by a servant to be set at liberty, is an unlawful desire, because its accomplishment, would violate the “law” which enjoins perpetual servitude ….
 
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cvanwey

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The verse you quote is not an instruction (and neither is what your own law), it is a concession.

An instruction would be something that enforces what is being said, either by making it a command (e.g. do not murder) or giving a dire consequence. Something like Whoever kidnaps someone and sells him, or is caught still holding him, must surely be put to death.

I informed you, long ago, that the Bible does not tell readers "they must own slaves." The Bible gives permission. Since God grants permission for 'slavery', He then provides 'instruction' on what exactly is permissible. Or, as @Clizby WampusCat already pointed out, way back in the OP, God provides a "slavery guide". You wish to [convolute/dilute] the matter, by insisting it's not an "instruction manual", on how to "properly" enslave humans"; but is instead only a 'concession'? If your only defense, is that God is not commanding humans to own other humans, as property, this little nugget was already conceded long ago; by myself and likely others. However....

If such a wannabe slave master chooses to own slaves, and such a wannabe slave master also wants to do so 'correctly', he would then refer to the Bible for instruction on how to do so 'properly.'

God's "instruction manual", or "guide", or even only a "permission slip", informs the human public as to what slave masters may do... Such as:

- You may own 'slaves' for life. Your only defense here, is that slaves could possibly be set free twice a century. Weeee!

- God instructs absolutely no reciprocation towards the slave master, if the "slave" survives the slave master's beating. Your only defense here was that we need to read the Bible in better context. But the instruction is quite clear here. The 'slave' is deemed property, and no punishment to the slave master is granted or warranted.

- You may treat your slaves as property and pass them along to your offspring. Your only defense here was to try and define what property 'could' mean here. But the Bible already defines, in this direct context, what 'property' means, in regards to 'slaves'. How do we know? 'Progressive revelation' if you will... The NT later tells it's readers, "slaves, obey your slave masters in everything." I would imagine even YOU would call this an 'instruction" :) And thus, the follow up question I have asked you...

What happens if the slave does not obey the slave master? If the slave master should decide to beat his slave, is this acceptable by God?


The answer is yes.
 
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cvanwey

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Imagine for a moment Mr Gullible is surfing through these threads. He reads Cvanwey's post above and concludes that the Bible says slavery is acceptable so he starts a campaign to restart slavery.

It wasn't because he read that for himself and it wasn't because any Christian told it to him. It was because an atheist thought that it was true and wanted everyone else to agree with him on the matter.

I would hope that you would much rather Mr Gullible read my post above where I indicate that Bible does not support slavery and go away and continue in that thought, and yet so far from your responses to my post this point has not sunken in:

If Christianity is true, human opinion does not matter. It only matters what God thinks.

If "Mr. Gullible" wanted to reinstate slavery practices, is God OKAY with this plan? The answer is YES. Otherwise, He either would not have provided an instruction manual on slavery at all, or, would have told His readers they cannot enslave others. But Since God choose to, "Mr Gullible's" attempt in reinstating slavery practices, though likely being shot down by human consensus, is still not considered wrong in God's eyes. God is a-okay with slavery practices.

Thus, the follow up question... Are you a-okay with enslaving fellow humans (as long as they are not Israelites), as property, for up to 49 years? You never really answered this question...


The only people saying that the Bible supports enslavement of people today are non-Christians.

God is okay with 'slavery'. Most humans, nowadays, are certainly not okay with slavery practices, in any capacity. I would imagine this may even include you. But guess what? If you are okay with owning other humans, as property, for life, is God okay with that as well? The answer is YES ;)
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Perhaps you're not aware, but the word "modern" in history means "after medieval". In other words, modern history is any time in the last five hundred years or so. Slavery has certainly been practiced and promoted by Christians in modern times.
You are correct and I had forgotten, although in fact we are now apparently Post-Modern (although I remember books 15 years ago talking about post post-modernism).

I was thinking of contemporary, rather than modern, in particular some Christian who actually believes this. And there is little point debating Pastor Warren. He is never going to change his mind.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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We want Christians to understand that their holy book has an inconsistent morality. In order to do this, we need to point out the inconsistencies (done), challenge Christians to address them (done) and then watch them fail to do this (done).

Actually you have pointed out inconsistencies, Christians have addressed them and you just don't agree with their answers. That's your prerogative. But don't assume because you don't agree that you are right. If you were wouldn't all Christians be agreeing with you?

Perhaps you should consider this - even if you are right, wouldn't you rather be supporting the Christians who also wish to prevent slavery from coming back than the ones like Pastor Warren? So far your track record is to support Warren's views. Have you found a contemporary Christian who agrees with Warren?[/QUOTE]
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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The abolitionists did. Unfortunately, they were not able to win by arguments based on the Bible, and so had to resort to a long and bloody war to do so.
Only in the US and even then that is not strictly true, the war was a re
sult of those that opposed abolition being gradually undermined by the abolitionist support in government. A war should not have been necessary - the rest of the western world managed without.
 
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cvanwey

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Actually you have pointed out inconsistencies, Christians have addressed them and you just don't agree with their answers. That's your prerogative. But don't assume because you don't agree that you are right. If you were wouldn't all Christians be agreeing with you?

Perhaps you should consider this - even if you are right, wouldn't you rather be supporting the Christians who also wish to prevent slavery from coming back than the ones like Pastor Warren? So far your track record is to support Warren's views. Have you found a contemporary Christian who agrees with Warren?

It only matters what God thinks. Right?

So even if every human now disagrees with pastor Warren, does God disagree with pastor Warren? The answer is no.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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It doesn't need to be an instruction. It's approving permission. Think of it like this: if a law was passed saying that you were allowed to murder people, and someone did so, would you then be able to put them on trial by saying "Well, the law may say that you CAN murder people, but it's not an INSTRUCTION to do so." Of course you couldn't.
In fact there are laws that give instructions about how you can legitimately murder someone, whether in war or by execution.

In this case it is not a good example, because there is an explicit instruction about murder in the Bible, and yet the laws that follow provide examples of what it considered murder and what is considered an accident. In other words there is an explicit instruction and then there are examples of how to define that.

Likewise there is an explicit instruction to prevent people being unwillingly enslaved and then there are laws about how people who go willingly into service are to be treated.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Slavery forms a vital element of the Divine Revelation to man. Its institution, regulation, and perpetuity, constitute a part of many of the books of the Bible.
Let's start with this then. Every word of this is correct, except for the first. Try this instead:

Servanthood forms a vital element of the Divine Revelation to man. Its institution, regulation, and perpetuity, constitute a part of many of the books of the Bible.

I do feel that this is the key point, since it doesn't matter how many times I point out that the Hebrew word ebed means servant as in the role of serving someone, atheists come back and imply slavery.

Until you can approach the Old Testament without the baggage of already deciding that slavery is intended you will just be reinforcing Pastor Warren's viewpoints. And note that Warren came to his conclusions while reading a Bible that used the word 'servant' in its translation so he did not draw his ideas about slavery from the Bible, but rather started with them and then tried to make the Bible back him up. He starts with 'Had God, the Great Law Giver, been opposed to slavery, he would perhaps have said, “thou shalt not hold property in man: thou shalt not enslave thy fellow being". In other words as there is nothing specifically forbidding it, I can get away with it.
 
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