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Slavery, a Guide

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Clizby WampusCat, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    False. The outcome is not the same. In Verses 18-19, the injured party remains free. In 20-21, the injured party remains enslaved, likely for life. Verse 18-19 specifies what type of compensation for the victim, more or less. Verse 20-21 do not speak of any type of compensation for the victim. Only that the slave master is to be 'punished' if the slave actually dies. Otherwise. the master is not to be "punished"; which then implies absolutely no compensation to the victim at all.

    You are too funny :)

    I already addressed this prior. An all powerful and all loving God would not both instruct the golden rule while also providing an instruction manual for 'slavery' practices.

    Wow, I noticed you omitted Verse 12? Was that an accident? This passage applies to VOLUNTEER HEBREW servants alone ;) But nice try, yet again :) (i.e.)

    12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. 13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. etc etc etc........

    Nope.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 3:53 PM
  2. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Ok, could god not have told the Israelites to knock it off on the slave thing? He did not write rules to regulate lying or murder etc. He told them those things were wrong, He made regulations of slaves instead of telling them it was wrong to own people as property. God knew there would be murder and lying throughout history but chose to tell people these things were wrong, not so for slavery. The most likely answer is that these rules were written by people that wanted to have slaves.

    You said we have slaves today, I agree yet your God does nothing about it when He could stop it.
     
  3. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Kool. So apparently, your believe is that God endorsed an instruction manual on how to properly enslave people for life. Got it.

    And, you apparently also agree wholeheartedly, even though you have told @Clizby WampusCat that you don't like the idea of owning humans as property?.?.?..?.?.?


    And yet, I keep demonstrating how your interpretation is objectively false.
     
  4. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Maybe #6.
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    My wife and kids are not my possessions. Slaves could be bought and sold as property, we cannot do that for our spouses and kids.
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    The bible says they are property, can be bought and sold and inherited. This is what I mean by property. This is wrong.

    You never asked me what I think we should do but if you want to make prisoners of them, ok but don't make them your property. Prisoners are not property.

    Mind boggling. So a person owes another person a debt and the Best solution God can come up with is slavery to solve the problem?
     
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  7. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    So you believe people are sinful at birth but would not abuse this regulation?
     
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The bible is more realistic than that dealing with the fallen state of human hearts. There have always been these kinds of master-slave relationships. People for whatever reason tend to give up their own freedoms by irresponsible living that incurs great debts, by failing to stand up for what is right at the right time and there are unscrupulous individuals who take advantage of that. These possibilities cannot simply be legislated away and to do so would be to deny freewill. In a fallen world, one feature is masters and slaves, billionaires and paupers. Is it ideal to be poor, no of course not. Is it ideal to be unfree, no of course not. But people become poor and unfree for all sorts of reasons that cannot be simply removed, until every human heart is pure enough not to reintroduce the corruption. The Christian way is most realistic . It is about being real about people, living in hope that one day it will not be this way and doing what we can to abolish the worst forms of slavery in the meantime.
     
  9. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Equivocation: you pick one part of the definition, while ignoring the main part. Your wife and children belong to you and you to them. That you cannot sell them doesn't make any difference to the definition of the word 'property'

    If you are objecting to the buying and selling of people, because that relegates them to mere property... but property doesn't refer to things that are bought or sold, but things that belong and how they belong to you is irrelevant - they can choose it (like a spouse), they can be born in to it (like children), they can be inherited, they can be bought and they can be loaned (though the latter might not be defined as your property in that circumstance).

    So really, my point is that it is not 'people as property' that you are objecting to but 'buying and selling people'.

    Is that correct?
     
  10. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    No, God came up with a way for a person to repay that debt themselves, you just call it 'slavery'. There is no indication that any Hebrew servant ever thought of themselves in the way that you are viewing them.
     
  11. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Hey, you were the one saying that the verses about the neighbour are irrelevant. Now you are saying that they are relevant? Make up your mind.

    Slavery is a special case, but not an isolated one. We need to understand the laws about slavery in the context of the laws in general, and one of the things we need to do is ask why there is a specific law about slavery, which based on your approach (these are just manmade rules) you don't appear to be doing.
     
  12. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    All slaves are property but based on a previous definition of property so are spouses and children.

    And there are key differences between a slave and an ox, including: An Ox doesn't gain its freedom on the 7th anniversary (though it does get a year off); Slaughtering an ox doesn't put you up on a murder charge. An ox can't choose a wife or choose to remain because of it's spouse; An ox is not made in the image of God, nor can it worship God.

    It might be better to say all slaves are property and considered of value/worth (and drop the ox bit entirely).
     
  13. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Ok, if I were God I would have just said "don't own people as property." and enforced it. I guess your God has a different plan.
     
  14. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    One, my wife and kids do not belong to me. That connotates possession. My wife and I are partners in life together by choice and we are stewards of our kids together. Two, the Bible is using the word property for the slaves and they can be bought or sold and inherited. You are straw manning my definition.

    My problem is that the Bible calls slaves property and says that they can be bought, sold and inherited as property.
     
  15. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    No, when the Bible says they are property of the master that can never go free (lev 25). Call it what your want but that is the concept I disagree with.
     
  16. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    No, that was your definition not the definition from the bible. the bible says they are property, it says they can be bought, sold and inherited.

    My wife and kids are not my property as defined by the bible as it relates to the slaves.

    Can these servants leave at any time? Can these servants be bought, sold and inherited?
     
  17. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    This one is not true at all. Hebrew and Resident Foreigners can be released. on the year of Jubilee.

    At face value that seems to imply everyone, though all the references I looked up suggest that 'Resident Foreigner' is a term that refers to non-Hebrew believers, so most, if not all, 'slaves' would be released on the Sabbath Year.
     
  18. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    This one really made me laugh.

    You should have said that all slaves can be beaten and left it at that. Hebrew (and Resident Foreigners) could be beaten to death also, although this might result in a murder charge.

    Personally I think that would be applied to all slaves, since there is no reason to suppose from reading the Torah that Judges would rule any kind of murder as acceptable (You shall not commit murder is one of the Ten Commandments).

    And while you point out that it was acceptable to beat your slave, the same reasoning would end up concluding that it is ok to hit your neighbour with a stone or fist. Or that it is fine for a slave to beat his master with a stick.
     
  19. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I have answered this before a couple of times.
     
  20. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I have made my case quite extensively. You are just side-stepping or ignoring it. You seem to only want to exchange on the 'laws' related to "volunteer Hebrew servants", but want to turn a blind eye to the rest.

    You can start by no longer ignoring posts #589, #599, and #601.
     
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