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Tom 1

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Slavery was a basic reality of life from the beginning of ordered civilisations, maybe even before. The first city states regularly fought each other and took slaves. For a community, whether as the inhabitants of a small city or as a tribe both the possibility of becoming enslaved or enslaving others was as real then as today the possibility of being involved in a motorway pile up or train wreck is. It was a feature of life. Within Hebrew society people who lost everything and had no other means to eat had the option to sell themselves into slavery for a limited period, if you look into it your post highlights all the things that makes your point but ignores the protections - from the earliest walled cities in Sumeria there were more protections for slaves in the ancient world than there were in the US, and slaves, possibly because any person could just as easily become a slave as a slave owner, were not viewed as sub-human. To understand slavery in the ancient world you need to reflect on just how different things were. Becoming destitute didn’t mean living in a trailer park or frequenting the soup kitchen, it meant having no protections whatsoever. Temporary slavery, like laws stipulating gleaning rights etc, was a solution for the times, the ancient world equivalent of a crappy minimum wage job, or of having to work for a welfare cheque rather than just take it as a handout. Life is grim, in many parts of the world today people live and work in conditions far worse that what was typical for a slave in somewhere like Ur or Jerusalem. The sort of slavery practised in the US reflects the kind of over the top brutality and de-humanisation the industrial revolution made commonplace, the norm rather than the exception.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I don't think they believed it was "good".
Maybe not but why would God make rules for it if He thought it was not good. He made rules against murder disrespecting your parents etc.

Do you think your morality is superior to that of countries that might believe in that?
I believe my morality is superior to people that think forced slavery is a good thing.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

Within Hebrew society people who lost everything and had no other means to eat had the option to sell themselves into slavery for a limited period,
Yet not all slave rules were for voluntary slavery. Much of them are for forced slaves.

So what? God did not provide those "protections". God actually gave rules to beat them. I never said anything about them being viewed as subhuman. My objection is people being forced to be slaves and could be beaten and treated immorally. It does not matter what they thought of their slaves.

So why did god not just provide for them? If someone wants to voluntary be a slave, then fine, but you keep avoiding the practice on enslaving non-Hebrew slaves by force and treating them immorally.

The sort of slavery practised in the US reflects the kind of over the top brutality and de-humanisation the industrial revolution made commonplace, the norm rather than the exception.
Have you read the Bible or my post? Leviticus 25 describes a slavery given by God that closely resembles American slavery, purchasing slaves form the nations around them, owning them as property for life, handing them down to descendants, laws for beating them. Were these not attributes of American slavery?

Can you address the forced slavery of non-Hebrew people? My contention is that forcing another to be a slave against their will is immoral in any situation at any time, yet God told the Hebrews to do just that to others.
 
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Tom 1

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You're mistaking 'reading some stuff' with understanding it. Some context, rather than a superficial skim, would help. Some basic points -

1) Slavery is not a moral teaching of the bible, it's a 'stuff that happens when people do whatever they want' teaching'. To rather state the obvious, the story of the bible goes like this - there existed some idyllic state, humans were vegetarian and in some sense attached no meaning to ideas of right and wrong. Humans made a decision that led them into disagreement with God. God said, out you go, life is going to change and things are going to be very hard for you. Time goes on, murder and mayhem follows, God starts again with Noah. He decides not to make another fresh start again and just let things play out as they will. We can look to history to see how the world developed. God has a long term plan, the lion will lay down with the lamb and so on, but long term in human terms means thousands of years (at least).

2) God didn't write the bible - however you want to interpret 'inspired' it quite clearly doesn't mean God just wrote it. Here it gets a bit more complicated - if you actually study the community guidelines, rules, the implicit spirit of the law in Deuteronomy (etc) and compare it with Assyria, Egypt and other contemporaneous societies it's actually pretty inspiring. You can look into it and make your own mind up - then you could have an opinion on it that relates to something other than whatever random notions happen to go through your head. Some periods of Sumerian civilisation seem to have been comparable to some degree (some periods decidedly weren't). No offence, but questions of the sort 'why wasn't there a 21st century society 2 millennia before Christ' are just plain stupid.

Finally, you can demonstrate that your question is in good faith, something more than a shrill and pointless rant, by showing how it could be/could have been done. We're at a point in Western civilisation, i.e. where we've killed enough people who wanted to do things differently that we can settle back and reflect on how nice we all are now we don't have to fight for our survival. That could all deteriorate pretty quickly following some major disaster, so your task is to show humanity how to do it - how do you take the whole of humanity, either 4,000 years ago or in some post-apocalyptic future, and ensure that from the whole mass you bring out some shining civilisation that can somehow navigate its way towards becoming a guiding light for the world (or at least a more or less democratic/civilised society) somehow bypassing along the way all of the steps it took to get to that point? You have said how wrong it all is, here's your opportunity to put God straight and show him how it all be done. For extra points you could demonstrate how you'd respond now to future complaints about how we run society now, and show how all the things we do badly now could all just be solved with a snap of your fingers.
 
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Tom 1

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

You're going to have to explain why you think this makes sense.
 
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Tom 1

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So why did god not just provide for them? If someone wants to voluntary be a slave, then fine, but you keep avoiding the practice on enslaving non-Hebrew slaves by force and treating them immorally.

Ok, what's your solution? How would you have run things in Mesopotamia or some other region of the world in the ancient world?

I don't think one post qualifies me to 'keep' doing anything. Slavery was an everyday part of life at that time. Using your extensive knowledge of the ancient world, please explain how it might have been otherwise.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You're mistaking 'reading some stuff' with understanding it. Some context, rather than a superficial skim, would help. Some basic points -
Why not just address my post instead of assuming I just skimmed it. I copied and pasted the text and commented on it.

I find this an immoral decision by God then. He has the ability to teach them better and failed to do so. I would not let my children so whatever they want.

Many Christians in the US believe what the bible says was inspired by god. To believe forced slavery at any time in history is just stupid. The fact is that people were being forced into slavery and God did nothing about it. You have better morals than that I bet.

Simple. If I was God and loved the people I created I would bypass all of this pain and suffering, make them perfect as he is going to anyway and let everyone into heaven and enjoy them forever. Oh and I would at least tell them to not own each other as property.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You're going to have to explain why you think this makes sense.
What does not make sense about it? God told people to not do many immoral acts that hurt others but neglects forced slavery and beating slaves.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?
 
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Not David

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Ok. I try to derive morality from the facts about what makes human life good. If I'm smart, I suceed. If I'm dumb I fail. I also lean on the experience of the wise for guidance in discerning human reality.

What makes your morality superior?
That sounds subjective.
 
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Not David

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Maybe not but why would God make rules for it if He thought it was not good. He made rules against murder disrespecting your parents etc.

I believe my morality is superior to people that think forced slavery is a good thing.
Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.
 
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Not David

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If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?
Funny how a limited mortal man of the 21st century believes can be better than the creator of the Universe.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.
I agree. Do you disagree that well being for all is a good goal for morality?

Would you write rules or allow rules to be attributed to you that force enslavement on others? You are more moral than the God of the bible as well I bet.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Funny how a limited mortal man of the 21st century believes can be better than the creator of the Universe.
You asked me a question on how I would do things differently if I were God. I answered. How is what god did better than what I would have done?
 
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Tom 1

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If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?

If that's what you would have done, you should be able to explain how that might have worked, in the context. That would provide an actual thing to discuss.
 
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cvanwey

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Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.

Morals are subjective. However....

1) I bet there exists things in the Bible, for which [you] do not agree. If not, we can test this with the topic of slavery alone.

2) I'm also willing to bet [you] agree with my final assessments about slavery, more-so than what your God allows for, and/or sanctions, and/or etc. If not, we can test this with the same Verses.

If we agree on these (2) points above, then we are in a weird arena about what IS 'moral'.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If that's what you would have done, you should be able to explain how that might have worked, in the context. That would provide an actual thing to discuss.
I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.
 
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cvanwey

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I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.

Agreed. The rest seems unnecessary and superfluous. You are no longer you in heaven anyways. --> No one sins in heaven, regardless of how much 'sin' they committed, prior to heaven.
 
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Tom 1

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

This seems a bit random. Are you saying that things are just 'bad' just because, or because someone said so, or something like that? Ethical and moral codes for living have reasons behind them, as you know I'm sure there have been many attempts at defining morality in a whole range of different ways. It seems obvious that it would be impossible to build a civilisation if some of the things you mention - disregard for one's parents, murder, theft, adultery - were rampant and not even considered damaging or negative in some way. There would be chaos, I don't see how a society could function like that. Lying is a much more common sin, but again unchecked it weakens the fabric of any relationship or set of relationships. Idolatry is a different issue, more determining of the overall direction of the society, which could be practically useful, or not, or whatever. Slavery however has been part of how nations and whole civilisations have been built - like it or not, there isn't a single major civilisation slave labour hasn't been a part of. We can now afford to see it as wrong and unnecessary in the West, and our societies are wealthy enough that those who cannot support themselves can be supported, and we are no longer living in such a precarious society. In the ancient world the complete destruction of whole communities was not the unusual event it would be today, and even in the world today there are many, many people who under one definition or another live as slaves did in the ancient world. Why do you think that is? What options do you think are available to them? Why is it happening? These are worthwhile questions, worthwhile in that they take you down the path to understanding things that actually 'are' that have actual existence in the actual world. 'I don't like it it's bad' is the meaningless statement of a child. The only reason you consider slavery to be bad is when and where you were born, if you had been born in another time and place your attitude towards it would be entirely different. Not so with the other sins you mention, as they are by definition barriers to creating any kind of cohesive society.


I find this an immoral decision by God then. He has the ability to teach them better and failed to do so. I would not let my children so whatever they want.

Then you should be able to quickly resolve the world's problems. Here's one for you you could provide a solution for - at some point in the future, if we ever get to it, there may be a wide network of highways designed for self-driving, sustainably fuelled vehicles of one kind or another. Centuries from now, someone might look at how we do things now and be appalled that we turned a blind eye to millions of people being killed or severely disabled every year so that we could drive around in vehicles that also ruined the environment. There's your retrospective problem - how will you stop everyone engaging in this murderous practice?

What does not make sense about it? God told people to not do many immoral acts that hurt others but neglects forced slavery and beating slaves.

To make this a worthwhile discussion you do need to explain your thinking a bit. Your posts give the impression that you haven't really thought about any of this, going through a process of explaining what you mean would give you an opportunity to do that.
 
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Tom 1

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I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.

Well, that's an interesting idea. The idea as I understand it is that this life is a sort of test in that the actual choice to want to be sinless is made and adhered to as much as this might be possible, to make the eventual transformation possible. You can't make a person sinless who doesn't want to be sinless.
 
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