Lol you started off ok - but then, always with the superficial notions! What do you have against understanding something before snapping to a cool-sounding conclusion?
Cool? Terribly kind of you to say so.
But seriously - some questions just don't
have a complicated answer.
What were the causes of the First World War? A very complicated question!
But, on the other hand: "Did Britain fight against Germany?" Yes.
How did agriculture develop around the world? That will take some serious research and discussion.
Or, where did potatoes come from? The Americas.
I've said all along, the question of "Is the Bible pro-slavery is a simple one, based on simple evidence; and after pages of listening to you ignore the evidence, the answer seems clearer than ever. The Bible is pro-slavery, as I'll be happy to demonstrate again.
As to why you think it's a complicated question - well, if you took the position that Britain and Germany were allies in the First World War, or that potatoes come from Australia, you'd
have to make the argument as complicated as possible, because the clear facts are against you.
although Torah.com is great what you’ll find there are other people’s arguments, which are summaries of an enormous amount of material and perspective etc.
That will do fine for the moment. Before I decide to invest months reading Maimonides, let's see if his arguments are worth investigating in the first place. You say Maimonedes shows that the Bible is antis-slavery (something you've been denying for pages now)? Alright. Let's have a look at it.
From
The Treatment of Non-Israelite Slaves: From Moses To Moses - TheTorah.com
Non-Hebrew slaves were considered permanent acquisitions and never had to be freed. The stark contrast is seen best in the Holiness Collection, which, as stated above, denies that Hebrew can ever really be slaves:
Lev 25:42 For they are My servants, whom I freed from the land of Egypt; they may not give themselves over into servitude.—25:43 You shall not rule over him ruthlessly; you shall fear your God. 25:44 Such male and female slaves as you may have—it is from the nations round about you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 25:45 You may also buy them from among the children of aliens resident among you, or from their families that are among you, whom they begot in your land. These shall become your property: 25:46 you may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property for all time. Such you may treat as slaves. But as for your Israelite kinsmen, no one shall rule ruthlessly over the other.
The rabbis make no attempt to soften this. In fact, at least some voices in rabbinic literature interpret v. 46 not as permission to keep slaves forever but as a commandment to do so (b. Berachot 47b).
…Rav Yehudah said: “Whoever frees his slave has violated a positive commandment, as it says, “You shall work them forever.”
Hmmm. Excellent point. Yes, the Bible does say that. Inhumane? Certainly. God's order? Also certainly. And who are you to question God?
"
All Are Formed in the Womb: Job 31:13, 15
Have I ever shunned justice for my slave and maid-servant when they quarreled with me.... Did not He who made me in my mother’s belly make him? Did not One form us both in the womb?
While the previous verse called for supererogatory conduct, this verse demands abiding by the legal duties (משפט) a master owes his slave because, as Job says, both he and the slaves share the same humanity; [10] all are formed in the womb, and every individual emerges from the same physiological processes.[11]"
Yes. And? The same God who formed all people in the womb also determined that some of them were more favoured than others, His "Chosen People," and some of them should be their slaves.
A slave master could quite convincingly answer that he gave his slaves justice if they had a legitimate complaint, and that this did not impinge on his right to own them and to punish them as he saw fit.
"Imitatio Dei : Psalms 145:9 and Deuteronomy 13:18
YHWH is good to all, and His mercy is upon all His works.
And he will show you compassion, and in His compassion increase you as He promised your fathers on oath.
The last verses cited concentrate on the trait of “mercy,” which Maimonides uses to underline the moral of gravity of the benevolent treatment of slaves, regardless of their origins, by raising it to the level of imitatio dei."
Pah. Yahweh also promised His people that they could have slaves, and that they should be theirs to own, work and punish. If you want to imitate God, consider that He owns all people as slaves Himself (as Christians often say). Why, then, should people not own people too? That would really be an imitation of God, showing that He wishes His world to be a hierachy.
"According to Maimonides any differences between individual members of a species are accidental, attributable only to the fickle nature of matter, or their physical constituents, since “[T]here in no way exists a relation of superiority and inferiority between individuals conforming to the course of nature except that which follows necessarily from the differences in the disposition of the various kinds of matter…”[12]
For Maimonides, material success or physical prowess do not in any way indicate superiority over others since they are simply arbitrary consequences of the natural world that do not constitute an “increment in substance.”[13] He then cites, among other verses, the same verse he uses to end the halakha about non-Jewish slaves, Ps. 145:9, to substantiate the principle of divine “beneficence with regard to His creatures…in that He makes individuals of the same species equal at their creation.”[14]"
At their creation, perhaps. But in life, some are brought low and some are brought high. Who can tell why? Perhaps it's just the way God wants it.
Conclusion: Slavery Is Contra Deum
Ps. 145:9 then delivers the philosophical and theological coup de grace to slavery. If God’s “beneficence” is manifest in the equality inherent in human beings “at their creation,” then to exert mastery over another human being subverts God’s governance and constitutes an act contra deum rather than imitatio dei.
Coup de grace indeed! The idea that God never wanted people to be slaves, that slavery is contrary to God's wishes, is flatly contradicted by the fact that He Himself orders the enslavement of others.
Then you can sketch out your own schema of the bible - from a Hebrew perspective, how does it begin, what happens, what’s in the middle and how do the prophets start to reflect the beginning again? From a Christian perspective, how is the law seen and what is it’s fulfilment intended to lead to? Then you can summarise the beginnings and development of the Hebrew nation, how it coalesced and, over time, became distinct from contemporaneous cultures, what was fundamentally different about the principles underlying its beliefs and outlook and what did those lead to? What are the distinctions between the 10 words, the underlying principles that undergird that development and those differences - how is the imperative to pursue positive change fundamentally built into those Words (commands) and what is the significance of the other 593 laws in terms of how they reach for an expression of this imperative to grow and develop? Mapping this out will give you an idea of what it is you are dealing with, then you can start on how all of this was interpreted by Jewish thinkers. Maimonides’s work is a good starting point as it brings it all together, you can find references to other views in there, his writings are very comprehensive and refer back to earlier writings you can look at. I don’t need to tell you how to do research, you can start with the most relevant laws of the slaves and branch out from there, you’ll
find plenty of referenced material to look into. Once you’ve gone through it, you can put together your own argument based on what you know about it. Simply starting off with something you have a need to believe is true, then retrospectively cobbling something together to fill in the gaps won’t do.
Oh, thanks! That shouldn't take too long at all. A year or three, perhaps? Maybe, just to be on the safe side, I should learn Judeo-Arabic as well?
I'm sorry, but that's not how a debate works. I'm not going to do your research for you. You say that Maimonides makes a case against slavery in the Bible? Fine. Prove it. This forum exists
"to give Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs." Let's see you make your case, with references. You can't just say "I'm right, you must need to learn more. If you actually understand Maimonides' ideas, then you should be able to argue his case yourself. If you can't or won't do that, I'll have to assume that either you don't understand his arguments yourself, or that his arguments are not sound.
These are the only things the bible can safely said to be ‘pro’ about as these are what it sets up as forming the ideal state.
Since we are not in the Garden of Eden any more, and according to Christian theology, will not be until the end of the world, this is irrelevant. We - and this really can't be mentioned too often - have God Himself in the Bible saying that slavery is fine, telling the Israelites they can take slaves from the lands around them; we have verses in the Bible telling masters how they can treat, take, keep and punish slaves; and we have Jesus' most important followers telling us that slavery is a good thing. It's really not a matter of debate.
The Bible tells people to take, keep and punish slaves, and says that slavery is a good thing. Therefore, the Bible is in favour of slavery.
If you think otherwise, let's see you make your case, if you can.
This is putting the idea more clearly - why do you think this is? Why, in specific terms, do we no longer practice slavery in the West?
Now
that is a complex question, and the answer is beyond the scope of this debate; ie, a red herring. Let's get back to the point: we
have evolved to the point where we consider slavery to be a bad thing. Since you accept this, and you accept that the people who wrote the Bible thought slavery was a good thing, you are conceding - whether you realise it or not - that the Bible is in favour of slavery.
