Size Matters....

[AzA]

Put simply, if you don't call people to be holy, then they're not going to be. History has shown this very well.

I call you to be a tree -- will you now become one? You are what you are. I am better off nurturing you in line with your nature than asking you to wear armor that isn't yours. But in order to nurture you, I first have to correctly identify you. This is a weak spot for our tradition.

Related to what creationists call the Law of Kinds is the fact that everything becomes what it is and nothing becomes what it isn't: a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, and an acorn becomes an oak; an orange tree bears oranges, and a vine bears grapes. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and "Be ye holy, for I am holy" don't operate along different rules from the rest of nature; the same Father designed and upholds it all, coherently.

Hermits are common to most religions; I have a friend who participates occasionally. A consistent comment from these groups is that it's fairly easy be virtuous in isolation, but strength and virtue are developed and demonstrated through immersion. Resistance training builds strength, and clarity comes by contrast. The quarantine of a safe haven offers neither, and it's telling that the Anabaptists have only impacted the world insofar as they have moved outside their traditions, when others have reached into them and pulled their convictions out , and when they have been reabsorbed into the theology and communion of the whole. When they remain isolated, they are shelved salt. Separatism is a tragedy when a group has so much to offer.

It is a small step from God does not care about people's ill informed theories about God to God does not care about me personally. Because if He does not care about me there is no reason for me to care about God.

It is only a small step if you have decided that your ill-formed theories about God are "you."
But you are not your beliefs, and this is often a very good thing: it allows you to grow without falling apart every time you learn something new.

You haven't read Job? Or do you disagree with it?

Big difference between disagreeing with a story and disagreeing with a given interpretation of a story. I agree with the story of the Tortoise and the Hare but wouldn't agree with every possible reading of it.

 

[StormyOne]

maybe you need to be re-introduced to the concept of suffering again...

Suffering Explained-With Biblical back-up

to suggest that God is cavalier with Job's family i.e. don't worry Job you'll get another family to replace the one you lost is perverse....

 

[Xenon]

I call you to be a tree -- will you now become one? You are what you are. I am better off nurturing you in line with your nature than asking you to wear armor that isn't yours. But in order to nurture you, I first have to correctly identify you. This is a weak spot for our tradition.

Related to what creationists call the Law of Kinds is the fact that everything becomes what it is and nothing becomes what it isn't: a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, and an acorn becomes an oak; an orange tree bears oranges, and a vine bears grapes. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and "Be ye holy, for I am holy" don't operate along different rules from the rest of nature; the same Father designed and upholds it all, coherently.

If we are going to simply become holy, why did Jesus, Moses, Paul, and pretty much every other Bible author encourage us to be sanctified to God and to choose what is right?

Hermits are common to most religions; I have a friend who participates occasionally. A consistent comment from these groups is that it's fairly easy be virtuous in isolation, but strength and virtue are developed and demonstrated through immersion. Resistance training builds strength, and clarity comes by contrast. The quarantine of a safe haven offers neither, and it's telling that the Anabaptists have only impacted the world insofar as they have moved outside their traditions, when others have reached into them and pulled their convictions out , and when they have been reabsorbed into the theology and communion of the whole. When they remain isolated, they are shelved salt. Separatism is a tragedy when a group has so much to offer.

I never advocated this. We are certainly supposed to be in the world yet not of it. You're right; hermits get nowhere, and they're not fulfilling Jesus' words to tell the world the truth. Being called to be holy does not mean hiding somewhere.

Besides, the Anabaptists were an example. There's plenty of other groups that call for sanctified lives among their members.

 

[StormyOne]

Not be of the world? For God so loved the world, that he gave....

 

[Xenon]

Not be of the world? For God so loved the world, that he gave....

It means that we are not supposed to act or think like the world. Jesus was certainly in the world, going to those who were considered too vile to spend time with (tax collectors, prostitutes, etc.) and mingling with whoever would receive him. But He was not of the world, as He lived by God's word and for God, not fleshly desires.

 

[Avonia]

It means that we are not supposed to act or think like the world.

I understand something about the origins of this mindset. However, much of the harm done through Christianity is done because we are trying to get out of the world. Because of this, we often miss the right action that is before our eyes.

The most important step in the "second coming" is getting fully into the world.

 

[AzA]

If we are going to simply become holy, why did Jesus, Moses, Paul, and pretty much every other Bible author encourage us to be sanctified to God and to choose what is right?

If anyone should be familiar with our nature and capacity, it's the One who designed it. He's not expecting for figs from an apple tree, or corn before it's fully ripe. Only a poor gardener doesn't know his crop, and expects from it what is not natural for it.

Our options for acting in this world have consequences for us and for the people around us and for the environment we're a part of. Some actions support life and health; others don't. While we're here, we come to learn how to distinguish the former from the latter. So we're not born with all the answers, but we are born with a lot of range and the ability to learn from experience. We are asked to choose because we can. And we live in the consequences of our choices.

I never advocated this. We are certainly supposed to be in the world yet not of it. You're right; hermits get nowhere, and they're not fulfilling Jesus' words to tell the world the truth. Being called to be holy does not mean hiding somewhere.

Besides, the Anabaptists were an example. There's plenty of other groups that call for sanctified lives among their members.

The very notion of "holy" is separatist, but in early use it simply designated things that were separated for use, for function and purpose, just as ekklesia once marked out people with a specific purpose. Now we use it instead to rank nature and value. In speaking of "holy" today we exclude whatever we have designated as "secular" or "profane," and imagine that we're distinguishing at the level of nature rather than function. That which is "holy" now has more value to us than that which is "profane." The holy ascend to glory and the unholy descend to infamy. It wasn't always so.

We were designed to be here, and so we are.

 

[Xenon]

If anyone should be familiar with our nature and capacity, it's the One who designed it. He's not expecting for figs from an apple tree, or corn before it's fully ripe. Only a poor gardener doesn't know his crop, and expects from it what is not natural for it.

Our options for acting in this world have consequences for us and for the people around us and for the environment we're a part of. Some actions support life and health; others don't. While we're here, we come to learn how to distinguish the former from the latter. So we're not born with all the answers, but we are born with a lot of range and the ability to learn from experience. We are asked to choose because we can. And we live in the consequences of our choices.

So humans are naturally good, you're saying. They will naturally "ripen" into a sanctified life. Is this true? Because Jeremiah 13:23 says otherwise. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." The Word of God states that the only fruit we're capable of producing on our own is thistles and thorns.

The very notion of "holy" is separatist, but in early use it simply designated things that were separated for use, for function and purpose, just as ekklesia once marked out people with a specific purpose. Now we use it instead to rank nature and value. In speaking of "holy" today we exclude whatever we have designated as "secular" or "profane," and imagine that we're distinguishing at the level of nature rather than function. That which is "holy" now has more value to us than that which is "profane." The holy ascend to glory and the unholy descend to infamy. It wasn't always so.

We were designed to be here, and so we are.

I didn't make the distinction, and I don't listen to any human who does. God did. I'm just following what He said.

 

[sentipente]

So humans are naturally good, you're saying. They will naturally "ripen" into a sanctified life. Is this true? Because Jeremiah 13:23 says otherwise. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." The Word of God states that the only fruit we're capable of producing on our own is thistles and thorns.

Don't allow your dogma to color how you view this verse. We have grown accustomed to doing evil because we have convinced ourselves that we are enemies. Under these circumstances we can't just change. But God made us good not evil. This means we are naturally good, unless you don't believe in creation.

 

[JonMiller]

Look at people Senti, what do all people produce?

JM

 

[Avonia]

The Word of God states that the only fruit we're capable of producing on our own is thistles and thorns.

This may be as far from "the word of God" as it gets.

 

[Xenon]

This may be as far from "the word of God" as it gets.

There is a disturbing lack of scripture in this thread...

John 15:3-5 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[AzA]

So humans are naturally good, you're saying. They will naturally "ripen" into a sanctified life. Is this true? Because Jeremiah 13:23 says otherwise. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." The Word of God states that the only fruit we're capable of producing on our own is thistles and thorns.

How interesting. I was just reading that chapter today.

Who said anything about "on our own"? That's your interpolation.
Nothing in creation is independent. If it were independent, then it would be Creator.

I didn't make the distinction, and I don't listen to any human who does. God did. I'm just following what He said.

Sounds like you've retreated, Xenon. I described an evolution in the use of the term "holy." Your response ignores that evolution.

Which meaning do you think God intended? The original meaning, or the evolved meaning? The meaning that respects a thing's created nature? Or the meaning that treats differences in function as though they were differences in nature and value?

Look at people Senti, what do all people produce?

When people acknowledge their interconnection, they affirm life. When they separate, they murder.
The question to be asked is whether separation is our ideal state. If it is, then our distaste for it and for its consequences must be the most anomalous thing in all creation.

There is a disturbing lack of scripture in this thread...

John 15:3-5 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I completely agree.

 

[Avonia]

John 15:3-5 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I'm not sure you could have chosen a better text to illustrate my point. Used in this way, I'm all for more scripture.

The branches are part of a system. They don't have "faulty DNA."

 

[sentipente]

Look at people Senti, what do all people produce?

JM

People produce people. They also produce decisions. What they don't produce is what they are not authorized to produce.

 

[StormyOne]

There is a disturbing lack of scripture in this thread...

John 15:3-5 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

disturbing for whom? "The heavens declare the glory of God..." Clearly the thread gives an example of this.....

 

[Mankin]

Excellent post Stormy. I too have been fascinated with the sheer size of the universe. We humans are nothing but a tiny speck on all existance.

Also, I believe there is a theory that there is an alternate universe within every atom.

 

[StormyOne]

Excellent post Stormy. I too have been fascinated with the sheer size of the universe. We humans are nothing but a tiny speck on all existance.

Also, I believe there is a theory that there is an alternate universe within every atom.

I wish more people could grasp the sheer size, perhaps then we would be less certain that our way is the only way.....