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Size Matters....

StormyOne

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One of my favorite books presents the concept of size... let me say that after contemplating the size factor, it has been difficult for me to believe that the Creator who created what you are about to view can be concerned with the pettiness of theology.... Likewise I think those who want to become pastors should take some courses in astronomy first.... so here goes:

From the book The Gunslinger, The Dark Tower Series comes the following:

Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

"Size, gunslinger... size.
A visual example to make the point....

YouTube - Star Size Comparison HD


Let it sink in for a moment, it would take a plane traveling at 560 mph 1100 yrs to orbit the largest known star (at the moment) ONE TIME? And that that star is just a dot compared to the size of the galaxies around it?
 
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Avonia

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Likewise I think those who want to become pastors should take some courses in astronomy first
Said another way, we are often so preoccupied with reading what others have to say about God, that we forget to just look up at God.

Thanks for the great link!
 
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JonMiller

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I am not sure I understand you.

Our understanding of the universe tells us that the physics of the incredibly small is intimately and intricately linked to the physics of the incredibly large. We can ignore most of this physics in the universe that we see directly around us, strangely.

Jewish and Christian scholars also generally agree that God as portrayed in the Bible in inordinately concerned with the small details.

BTW, if our assumptions are correct, I would say that we understand more about what is going on inside the sun, than what you is going on inside your body.

JM
 
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StormyOne

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I am not sure I understand you.

Our understanding of the universe tells us that the physics of the incredibly small is intimately and intricately linked to the physics of the incredibly large. We can ignore most of this physics in the universe that we see directly around us, strangely.

Jewish and Christian scholars also generally agree that God as portrayed in the Bible in inordinately concerned with the small details.

BTW, if our assumptions are correct, I would say that we understand more about what is going on inside the sun, than what you is going on inside your body.

JM
Not all scholars agree that what is written in the bible is reflective of a Supreme Being... what I am saying is just because someone said that God said it doesn't mean he did..... Likewise just because someone wrote that God is concerned about this or that makes it so....

Let me restate it then... It is my belief that God is NOT concerned with some of the petty ideas that have come from theology having viewed just a glimpse of the universe.....
 
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AzA

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Our understanding of the universe tells us that the physics of the incredibly small is intimately and intricately linked to the physics of the incredibly large.
Since this is so, doesn't it strike you as odd that although the universe holds its diversity without falling apart or requiring sameness, we can't seem to discuss divergent perspectives on a belief without becoming dogmatic or disfellowshipping others?
 
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JonMiller

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So there are two main points.

One, the universe is a hugely diverse place. Things aren't the same, there are differences. Things have different substances. Things oppose other things.

Two, many many explanations of the universe are wrong. They don't describe the universe. Some of the explanations not only have different substances, but are also wrong. All but one description of the universe is wrong or incomplete.

Different perspectives/etc are possible, but they all have to be looking at the same thing. Not all possible perspectives (or all that not only are possible, but exist), are.

JM
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Wow I remembered my password.

Here is the difference between size and a personal God. It is related to the ability to think and even conceive of the idea of a God. From what evidence we have around us whether we go to a nebula or down to a quark we don't find anything with the ability to think and to do. So no matter how vast the universe or minutely viewed we are in a very unique position. We can conceive of God we can tell others about our concept of God we can believe that God has the ability to interact and communicate with us.

In other words size does not matter, the creature with the mind that thinks could be anywhere from microscopic to parsecs wherever the mind is that is the important part.

By the way I was seriously disappointed with the conclusion of the Dark Tower Series. And with only a minor change he could have made it so much better.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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This reminds of of the first Men in Black movie where the where the MIBs search for a galaxy located on "Orion's belt" (a pet's collar). The agents are told "Why can't you humans realize that something very important can still be small."
 
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Xenon

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Since this is so, doesn't it strike you as odd that although the universe holds its diversity without falling apart or requiring sameness, we can't seem to discuss divergent perspectives on a belief without becoming dogmatic or disfellowshipping others?
Without dogma or discipline, then everyone would be a part of the church regardless of actual beliefs, purity in their own lives, etc. Papal Rome (as well as the early Reformation) did not call people to holy lives, but only to be a part of the church. Because of this, it is not surprising that the Anabaptists, who only baptized believers and called the faithful to be separate from the world, led more moral lives than Catholics and Reformers of the time. Put simply, if you don't call people to be holy, then they're not going to be. History has shown this very well.
 
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StormyOne

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Wow I remembered my password.

Here is the difference between size and a personal God. It is related to the ability to think and even conceive of the idea of a God. From what evidence we have around us whether we go to a nebula or down to a quark we don't find anything with the ability to think and to do. So no matter how vast the universe or minutely viewed we are in a very unique position. We can conceive of God we can tell others about our concept of God we can believe that God has the ability to interact and communicate with us.

In other words size does not matter, the creature with the mind that thinks could be anywhere from microscopic to parsecs wherever the mind is that is the important part.

By the way I was seriously disappointed with the conclusion of the Dark Tower Series. And with only a minor change he could have made it so much better.
yes the conclusion was very very weak..... I had a feeling it was going south when the author introduced himself into the book.... didn't like that.....

Here is my angle.... Since there is a Creator who created all these things floating around in a 150 billion light year visible universe, it has become increasingly difficult for me to subscribe to the idea that the Creator cares about some of the petty theological ideas we have heard. The Creator who created a star so big that it would take 1100 yrs to orbit once, is really concerned about a day of worship, or a Sunday blue law, or some other nonsense.....
 
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Avonia

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The Creator who created a star so big that it would take 1100 yrs to orbit once, is really concerned about a day of worship, or a Sunday blue law, or some other nonsense.....
That's because those are man's laws projected on to our god concept. It doesn't mean that some of the laws we ascribe to God don't have value - some do. Some bring greater symmetry to a society. And many others do more harm than good.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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increasingly difficult for me to subscribe to the idea that the Creator cares about some of the petty theological ideas we have heard.
I am not sure that follows. The same God who set in motion the massive star and it's orbit in space also is the God who set in motion the tiny motor that propels a flagella in a single cell. The size does not matter, what matters is the information that God instilled into the universe to establish all this incredible diversity from subatomic to stellar. It is a small step from God does not care about people's ill informed theories about God to God does not care about me personally. Because if He does not care about me there is no reason for me to care about God.
 
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StormyOne

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I am not sure that follows. The same God who set in motion the massive star and it's orbit in space also is the God who set in motion the tiny motor that propels a flagella in a single cell. The size does not matter, what matters is the information that God instilled into the universe to establish all this incredible diversity from subatomic to stellar. It is a small step from God does not care about people's ill informed theories about God to God does not care about me personally. Because if He does not care about me there is no reason for me to care about God.
given the thousands that die daily either by violence, starvation, etc the case that God does not care about them personally could be made...
 
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Xenon

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given the thousands that die daily either by violence, starvation, etc the case that God does not care about them personally could be made...
Job made his case about why he should not suffer, and God responded by showing his intimate knowledge about all life on earth.

Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39:1-2 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

God knows everything inside and out (check out His description of Leviathan). He knows us better than we know ourselves. Moreover, he is completely concerned with the "small" stuff. He clothes the grass and feeds the sparrows. He surely suffers more from each person's death here than we do from the death of a member of our own family. The idea that God is not concerned with the details is purely a man-made one, because the Bible says completely the opposite.

Edit: Heh, Jon beat me to it!
 
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StormyOne

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You haven't read Job? Or do you disagree with it?

JM
disagree.... other possibilities other than God testing someone... kids who have no knowledge of their creator don't need a test.... likewise in Job's case, his test involved killing his family? Come on give me a break..... getting another family cannot replace the one you lost, and IF the story is to be believed, then it would suggest that God does not value human life....
 
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