Six Day Creation? No Way!

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

Eryk said:
There has to be space for objects to appear and a habitat for creatures to live. That's necessity.

Indeed, but the fact that these "realms" correspond with their inhabitants is interesting. Symmetry like this can signal poetry.

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

Here's a table representing the symmetry found in the creation account:

Eryk · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
There is a refrain in Genesis 1: "and it was evening and it was morning, the ______ day." Refrains in Hebrew typically signal poetry.

Hebrew Verb Construction

The style of writing of Genesis 1 is historical, using the waw-consecutive to express consecutive action (waw=and). Biblical historians use this style to: "express actions, events, or states, which are to be regarded as the temporal or logical sequence of actions, events, or states mentioned immediately before."[7] What this means for Genesis 1 is that God describes a sequence of events that occur one after the other throughout the creation week. We see this sequence reflected in the English as "And God said," "And there was," or "And it was," with which each verse in Genesis 1 begins. Each occurrence signifies that some action followed another in a real time sequence.

This is very important as it relates to the events of Genesis 1. Francis Andersen observes: "A string of WP (waw-consecutive) clauses in narrative prose (historical) stages events as occurring in a time sequence one after another. It is implied that one is finished before the next begins, so it is possible to speak of the verbs as 'perfective' in aspect."[8] So the events of Genesis 1:14-19 have an opening waw-consecutive "And God said," and a closing pattern of waw-consecutives "and it was evening, and it was morning" separating the 4th day from the previous and subsequent commands God issued. The point for the interpreter is that each day in Genesis 1 must be a completed event! So God began His creation of the sun, moon, and stars on Day 4 and finished them on that same day. This also rules out the concept that the days may overlap in some manner.

Star Formation and Genesis 1 | The Institute for Creation Research

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

Eryk said:
Hebrew Verb Construction

The style of writing of Genesis 1 is historical, using the waw-consecutive to express consecutive action (waw=and). Biblical historians use this style to: "express actions, events, or states, which are to be regarded as the temporal or logical sequence of actions, events, or states mentioned immediately before."[7] What this means for Genesis 1 is that God describes a sequence of events that occur one after the other throughout the creation week. We see this sequence reflected in the English as "And God said," "And there was," or "And it was," with which each verse in Genesis 1 begins. Each occurrence signifies that some action followed another in a real time sequence.

This is very important as it relates to the events of Genesis 1. Francis Andersen observes: "A string of WP (waw-consecutive) clauses in narrative prose (historical) stages events as occurring in a time sequence one after another. It is implied that one is finished before the next begins, so it is possible to speak of the verbs as 'perfective' in aspect."[8] So the events of Genesis 1:14-19 have an opening waw-consecutive "And God said," and a closing pattern of waw-consecutives "and it was evening, and it was morning" separating the 4th day from the previous and subsequent commands God issued. The point for the interpreter is that each day in Genesis 1 must be a completed event! So God began His creation of the sun, moon, and stars on Day 4 and finished them on that same day. This also rules out the concept that the days may overlap in some manner.

Star Formation and Genesis 1 | The Institute for Creation Research

The pervasive presence of the Hebrew WCI in Genesis 1 is interesting. It almost never occurs in poetry but it occurs 50 times in Genesis 1. However it's not unheard of. The WCI occurs 24 times in Psalm 18, 59 times in Psalm 78, and many other times in the Psalms - all of which are poetry.

Also, in a string of WCI verbs it's not always the case that it's describing strictly sequential action.

Eryk · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
The pervasive presence of the Hebrew WCI in Genesis 1 is interesting. It almost never occurs in poetry but it occurs 50 times in Genesis 1. However it's not unheard of. The WCI occurs 24 times in Psalm 18, 59 times in Psalm 78, and many other times in the Psalms - all of which are poetry.

But we're still talking about consecutive action, not a collage.

Symph · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
There's actually several good reasons to consider Genesis 1 to be a poem. Here are just a few:

We have other examples in the OT of the same event being described in both poetic form and narrative form. Two examples would be the crossing of the Red Sea (followed by the song of Moses) in Exodus 14-15, and the triumph of Deborah and Barak against Jabin described in Judges 4-5. Since Genesis 1 and 2 appear to both be describing the original creation event, it's possible that one is a song and the other is a narrative.

There is a refrain in Genesis 1: "and it was evening and it was morning, the ______ day." Refrains in Hebrew typically signal poetry.

There is a lot of repetition in Genesis 1, also typically signally poetry.

There appears to be a framework set out in Genesis one for creation. In the first three days, the three realms of heaven, earth, and sea are created. In the next three days these three realms are populated with creatures respectively. This could very well signal poetry.

Roughly 35% of Scripture is poetry. Many books of Scripture contain both poetry and narrative. It wouldn't be out of character for this to be occurring in Genesis 1.

Yeah I've seen quite a few videos on this subject from both angles. There's a plethora of information on both sides I just... I have become fully convinced that you can't trust science. I went through a long period of searching and reading and listening to others, and when I went through the history I came to the conclusion that just because a bunch of people with PH.D's say they proved something does not mean it's true. And I guess when I truly became convinced that you couldn't trust science, I started going the full literal route, and found it harmonized better with reality than what I had been doing. But that's just me.

dqhall · Aug 13, 2017

Pappy&Me said:
A day with The Lord can be 24 hours or 1000 years. I think in Genesis the Hebrew word here is ' yoms' which if I remember correctly it means ages? Check it out and see if this is right or not. Don't know. I do know that a day can be 24 hours or 1000 years though.

Here is some supporting evidence:

2 Peter 3:8 (WEB) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
The pervasive presence of the Hebrew WCI in Genesis 1 is interesting. It almost never occurs in poetry but it occurs 50 times in Genesis 1. However it's not unheard of. The WCI occurs 24 times in Psalm 18, 59 times in Psalm 78, and many other times in the Psalms - all of which are poetry.

Also, in a string of WCI verbs it's not always the case that it's describing strictly sequential action.

Did you happen to see my post concerning that?

Six Day Creation? No Way!

LittleLambofJesus said:
Interesting post. You [and others] may enjoy this Hebrew study site. It is a favorite of mine

Poetry in the Hebrew Bible
Poetry in the Hebrew Bible
*snip*
As Hebrew poetry is written much differently than our own Western style of poetry, many do not recognize the poetry which can cause problems when translating or interpreting passages written in poetry.

Approximately 75% of the Hebrew Bible is poetry. All of Psalms and Proverbs are Hebrew poetry and many other books, such as the book of Genesis, are filled with poetry. The reason much of the Bible was written in poetry is that it was originally sung and stories that are sung are much easier to memorize that when simply spoken. There is much more poetry in the Bible than most realize because most people do not understand it................................[/copy]

Jamsie · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
I'm considering taking the Literary Framework View of Genesis 1. If you're unfamiliar, this is the view that Genesis 1 is a poem or song that is using a six day framework in order to communicate truths about God and Creation, but not to be understood as six historical days. It's an argument from genre.

Genesis 1 certainly requires reading and study with "sufficient delicacy". My mediate creation view holds to six days, fiat days if you will, all predicated on the structured narrative of each day. Many years ago I researched/studied a number of Genesis 1 interpretations arriving eventually at the fiat/command day theory. I will have to revisit the framework view...

Apex · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
I'm considering taking the Literary Framework View of Genesis 1. If you're unfamiliar, this is the view that Genesis 1 is a poem or song that is using a six day framework in order to communicate truths about God and Creation, but not to be understood as six historical days. It's an argument from genre.

However before I really made a commitment to this view I wanted to try it on for size and see if it could be adequately defended. How would you challenge this view? I'll try my best in this thread to defend it.

Trust me, I wish I did not believe Genesis 1-11 was literal history. Many of the young Earth creation "apologists" are consistently misrepresenting evolutionary theory and I am honestly embarrassed to even be connected to some of them. However, if I want to be consistent with how I interpret the Scriptures, I must take Genesis 1-11 for what it is.

Read Exodus 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is no way to honestly come the conclusion that the author and editors of the Pentateuch thought Genesis 1-11 was not real history. So, while evolutionary theory is a brilliant theory, it doesn't align with Scripture. You either can trust in man's ideas on our origin or trust in the only eyewitness - God.

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

Apex said:
Trust me, I wish I did not believe Genesis 1-11 was literal history. Many of the young Earth creation "apologists" are consistently misrepresenting evolutionary theory and I am honestly embarrassed to even be connected to some of them. However, if I want to be consistent with how I interpret the Scriptures, I must take Genesis 1-11 for what it is.

Read Exodus 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is no way to honestly come the conclusion that the author and editors of the Pentateuch thought Genesis 1-11 was not real history. So, while evolutionary theory is a brilliant theory, it doesn't align with Scripture. You either can trust in man's ideas on our origin or trust in the only eyewitness - God.

The Exodus point is a good point. When the six days of creation are referred to elsewhere in Scripture, the authors seem to clearly understand them as regular days.

Oseas · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
The Exodus point is a good point. When the six days of creation are referred to elsewhere in Scripture, the authors seem to clearly understand them as regular days.

In truth, Genesis 1 is a description of a plan of God for restauration of all things which were destroyed times ago in the garden of Eden. Other interesting thing that calls attention is the fact that Moses received this revelation from the Most High and Almighty God around 2.500 years after Adam, precisely after passed two and half days of the week of God. (One Day with the Lord is as a thousand years and vice-versa, as is is revealed by Moses in his pray (Psa.90:v.4 and 2Peter 3:v.8)
Psalms 90:v.12-13&16
v.12 Teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13 Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. 16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

Based on God's six days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven days or seven millenniums) plus the Scriptures that teach that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4), then the mankind will go through six God days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).
In accord the Holy Scriptures, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, so we have a table of biblical times, as follow:
Adam lived …................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ..................................105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ................................ 90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived.................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived ...........................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived ..............................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ...............................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived.......................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ............................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood...600 yrs.
Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood = 1,656 yrs.
I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. See this table below:

PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ---------------- DURATION
I - From Adam until the Flood-------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood until Abraham--------------- 427 years
III - From Abraham until Exodus-----------------430 years
IV - From Exodus until king Saul -----------------396 years
V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem --------508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus ------587 years
Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus- 4,004 years

From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar) - 2,017 years
Total from Adam until our days ----------------- 6,021 years

Jesus, the Great Light (Gen.1:16) came in the fourth Day of God's week or around 4.000 years after the creation of the first Adam, the earthly Adam. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more two Days of the week of God, totalizing 6 complete Days or six milleniums, around 6.000 years, more precisely 6.017 years, conform Christian Calendar. We have entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's week, that is the Great Sabbath. We are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, and the Day of the Lord, and the Day of Vengeance, and the Day of Judgment. And our Almighty God the Father entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping of course, and JESUS assumed the control or the government of the Universe. JESUS is now sat on His Tribunal, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:15)

Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. Amen.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Paul of Eugene OR · Aug 13, 2017

Symph said:
Yeah I've seen quite a few videos on this subject from both angles. There's a plethora of information on both sides I just... I have become fully convinced that you can't trust science. I went through a long period of searching and reading and listening to others, and when I went through the history I came to the conclusion that just because a bunch of people with PH.D's say they proved something does not mean it's true. And I guess when I truly became convinced that you couldn't trust science, I started going the full literal route, and found it harmonized better with reality than what I had been doing. But that's just me.

But the problem with saying you can't trust science is actually saying you can't trust God. Because science merely brings out what the stars, the rocks, and the genomes are telling us, and they were made directly by God.

The billions of years for the earth and the universe stand firmly established. Therefore, scripture must be understood in relation to those facts. Let me point to another fact about scripture.

Scripture over and over says the sun rose and set. It is described as moving across the sky. It is described as halting that motion at Joshua's command. This language is not poetic, it is literal.

Science has revealed the sun doesn't really do that, rather, the earth rotates as the cause of day and night. I can't bring myself to deny that science. Therefore, I re-interpret scripture about the sun rising and setting, and instead of clinging to a forced literal understanding, I allow the understanding that the writer was doing the best he knew as he wrote, and I see no problem allowing him to speak of the sun rising and setting.

It is my contention we can do the same with the age of the earth and the fact of evolution. It seems to me to be a better thing to do than to assert the scriptures are in error.

Its no use arguing against the science. The only way to do that is to first not understand it. Creationists demonstrate this over and over when they try to talk about science as they understand it.

KWCrazy · Aug 13, 2017

Oseas said:
Based on God's six days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven days or seven millenniums) plus the Scriptures that teach that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4), then the mankind will go through six God days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).

You have so much right but you have this wrong. Complete the quote and you discover that a thousand years is like a day; meaning that God is timeless, not that His days are 1,000 years long. The creation took six solar days as is confirmed in Exodus 20:11.

redleghunter · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
I'm considering taking the Literary Framework View of Genesis 1. If you're unfamiliar, this is the view that Genesis 1 is a poem or song that is using a six day framework in order to communicate truths about God and Creation, but not to be understood as six historical days. It's an argument from genre.

However before I really made a commitment to this view I wanted to try it on for size and see if it could be adequately defended. How would you challenge this view? I'll try my best in this thread to defend it.

Recommend you Google a copy of a Hebrew mechanical translation of Genesis 1 before leaning too hard the literary way.

Here's a free version:

Free eBook - Mechanical Translation of Genesis

Recommend having this handy if you choose to use the mechanical translation:

Just the first verse will knock your socks off.

KWCrazy · Aug 13, 2017

Paul of Eugene OR said:
But the problem with saying you can't trust science is actually saying you can't trust God. Because science merely brings out what the stars, the rocks, and the genomes are telling us, and they were made directly by God.

How long have the rocks been speaking to you? What do they say?
Your science teacher says that the earth is billions of years old and your Bible says God created it in a week. Which you choose to believe says a lot about your position.

A wise man doesn't try to conform Scripture to science. There are 333 miracles in the Bible which defy science. God, not natural law, is lord of the universe. God can freeze time and make a day last for more than a day as He did for Joshua. That you choose to reject God's word says a lot about your position.

The Bible doesn't delve into cosmology, though it does say "He hangs the earth upon nothing," something which was not discovered for many hundreds of years later. Jesus does mention "as far as the east is from the west," a phrase which would not be fully understood for another 1,500 years. The Scripture is God's word recorded by men. That you choose deny this says a lot about your position.

Its no use arguing against the science. The only way to do that is to first not understand it.

Utter foolishness.
Those who claim to believe in both the Scriptures and in evolution have a firm understanding of neither.
Evolution is not science. Evolution is a theory. Science is the study of the natural world around us. It is not dependent upon any particular theory regardless of its popularity. Science cannot account for the supernatural. If the world were created by God's command 6,000 years ago science could not confirm it. If what we call evolution is speciation which happened after the great flood, nothing we can observe would be any different.

Jesus tells us that we are to live by every word which comes from the mouth of God. That is the Scriptures. Jesus said that from the beginning He made them male and female. From the beginning; not millions of years later. The Bible clearly states that God created the universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh 6,000 + years ago. Adam and Eve had no parents. Do you take God's word for it or Darwin's?

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

redleghunter said:
Recommend you Google a copy of a Hebrew mechanical translation of Genesis 1 before leaning too hard the literary way.

Here's a free version:

Free eBook - Mechanical Translation of Genesis

Recommend having this handy if you choose to use the mechanical translation:

View attachment 204866

Just the first verse will knock your socks off.

I can read and translate Hebrew so I don't need a mechanical translation to know what's behind the text. What about the Hebrew in Genesis 1 do you think is significant?

Marvin Knox · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Six Day Creation? No Way!

Six Day Creation? Way!

Tree of Life · Aug 13, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Six Day Creation? Way!

Ya got me.

Apex · Aug 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
The Exodus point is a good point. When the six days of creation are referred to elsewhere in Scripture, the authors seem to clearly understand them as regular days.

I just wanted to add. It all comes down to our philosophical foundations. Ontological naturalism is not how the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures viewed the world. They understood that God could and did interact supernaturally with his creation.

This means if God did create a matured universe supernaturally in a short period of time (as Genesis suggests), our scientific methodologies would be unable to come to that conclusion. Instead, the data would always be interpreted to fit within some naturalistic framework. As it should. This is how we have been able to achieve such wonderful technological advancements.

However, a medical doctor examining a supernaturally matured adult human, such as Adam, would never come to the conclusion his patient never went through the normal processes of growth. Unless he witnessed Adam being created instantly, he must assume that his bones (and other biological features) grew and developed slowly over time.

Six Day Creation? No Way!

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