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Your topic will probably get a few yawnsfrom modern futurists who dont know where their theories come from, and yet, these calculations are the very basis of the 7-year endtime scenario. Darby and others dreamed up the doctrine, but Anderson supplied the calendrical 'proof.'
Irenaeus and Hippolytus got their ideas from John Darby and Sir Robert Anderson? How interesting!
-Tim
These two ECF did take a futurist interpretation of Daniel.
Did they talk about a tribulation period of 7 years?
If you can supply any of their quotes showing this, it would prove your point.
.
A futurist esch did that; it had been developed by a commission of the Pope for the CounterReformation, written out by the Jesuit Ribera.
Please see here:
"The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: 'I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,' calling Antichrist 'the other,' because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one 'who feared not God, neither regarded man,' to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: 'And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active, and gone on prosperously.' And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: 'And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence, and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs.' And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: 'And in the midst of the week,' he says, 'the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.' Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, ch. 25
"Then he says: After threescore and two weeks the times will be fulfilled, and one week will make a covenant with many; and in the midst (half) of the week sacrifice and oblation will be removed, and in the temple will be the abomination of desolations.' For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations." - Hippolytus, On Daniel, sec.21-22
"With respect, then, to the particular judgment in the torments that are to come upon it in the last times by the hand of the tyrants who shall arise then, the clearest statement has been given in these passages. But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, 'And one week will confirm a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease.' By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. . . . The Lord also says, 'When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains, and let him which is on the housetop not come down to take his clothes; neither let him which is in the field return back to take anything out of his house. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved.' And Daniel says, 'And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand two hundred and ninety-five days.' And the blessed Apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says: 'Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together at it, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letters as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for (that day shall not come) except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth (will let), until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: (even him) whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.' And Esaias says, 'Let the wicked be cut off, that he behold not the glory of the Lord.' These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe on Him. For the Lord says, 'And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.' 'And there shall not a hair of your head perish.' 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.'” - Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, sec. 43, 62-64
-Tim
Brother Tim,
I'm not your brother.
Why do preterists repeatedly and deliberately spread half of the Historicist lie that Futurism was formulated as counter-Reformation propaganda despite being repeatedly shown that the earliest Church held to futurist premillennialism?
-Tim
You're his baby brother.
Brother Gideon,
I had thought he was a born-again believer like us...
or maybe he thinks anyone who is not a Dispensationalist is a heretic.
A local Baptist preacher was scorned and rejected by his supervising pastor during his training, because he dared to doubt the pretrib doctrine.
He had to start over again with another pastor.
I have had a number of darts thrown in my direction, also.
Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
We are to love even those who throw darts and reject the truth, especially the Brethren.
.
Brother Gideon,
I had thought he was a born-again believer like us...
or maybe he thinks anyone who is not a Dispensationalist is a heretic.
A local Baptist preacher was scorned and rejected by his supervising pastor during his training, because he dared to doubt the pretrib doctrine.
He had to start over again with another pastor.
I have had a number of darts thrown in my direction, also.
Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
We are to love even those who throw darts and reject the truth, especially the Brethren.
.
BAB2, you are assuming you know what's behind his remark.
I have to say that ever since you quoted that passage to me about being in danger of hell-fire, I have had to question your salvation status.
I mean, if you believe a person can become lost, then, to me, you are either saved but confused if you have come to believe you have maintain your salvation, or you are still lost if you have always believed you have to maintain your salvation, in which case, I cannot see calling you my brother, and it has nothing to do with any other doctrine other than this one here.
Could you please address this, as I am now concerned about you in this...
The hebrew year was/is 360 days a year, 12 months a year. Haven't read thru the thread, so I don't know if these issues have been addressed yet, but there's no calendar that can equally divided the year into days without it eventually drifting out of sync.Originally Posted by BABerean2
When considering the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of years of Daniel chapter 9, we need an accurate date to work with.
The copy of the book I used is a 10th edition from Kregel Books, reprinted in 1957.
Anderson used 69 years of 360 days (173,880 days) reckoned from the 14th of March B.C. 445, ending on 6th of April A.D. 32 to arrive at the day Christ rode the donkey into Jerusalem. According to Anderson his start date was the decree issued by Artaxerxes, King of Persia, in the month of Nisan in the 20th year of his reign, i.e. B.C. 445. (from Preface to the Tenth Edition, page 13)
In reviewing Andersons work and that of others there seem to be some tremendous problems with Andersons calculations.
The first is the use of 360 day years instead of a year closer to earths orbital year which is closer to 365.25 days. At first glance a difference of only 5.25 days seems small. However, in a period of only 35 years the seasons would have been reversed due to a difference of a half year. This means it would have been winter in summer and vice versa. It would also mean that the descendants of Jacob were the worst calendar makers in the history of civilization. 35years x 5.25 day difference = 184 days
Artaxerxes decree was for the rebuilding of the wall by Nehem-h after the sixty and two weeks.
On page 69 of the book, Anderson discusses the Sabbath year when Israel was to let the land lie fallow. If they had stayed on his 360 day calendar, they would not have known when to plant their crops.
Modern archeology has revised the date of Herods death, which in turn has revised the date of Christs birth closer to 4 BC.
Some have used the decree of 457 BC (Ezra 7:1-27) to arrive at a date of 26 or 27 AD as the date of Christs baptism by John the Baptist.
The Question is should Sir Robert Andersons dates be ignored and what is the date of Christs baptism based on modern scholarship?
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
-----------------------------------
Neh 1:1 The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace,
Neh 1:2 That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem.
Neh 1:3 And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire.
--------------------------------
Neh 6:15 So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.
The hebrew year was/is 360 days a year, 12 months a year. Haven't read thru the thread, so I don't know if these issues have been addressed yet, but there's no calendar that can equally divided the year into days without it eventually drifting out of sync.
The only other thing is the decree to rebuild Shalem wasn't given by Artaxerxes, but by Cyrus. And the 70 weeks were 70 literal yrs, evident by the 7 weeks/yrs to the commandment prophesied in the 1st yr of Darius the Mede who reigned in Babylon 7yrs prior to Cyrus' conquest of the same Babylon.
Artaxerxes decree was for the rebuilding of the wall by Nehem-h after the sixty and two weeks.
This is the Artaxerxes that reigned in 445 bc when the wall was rebuilt. Cyrus gave the decree in 539 bc. The temple was completed in the reign of Darius the grandfather of this Artaxerxes.
__________________
Br... , please excuse me, I mean Danoh,
I am glad you have volunteered to verify my salvation status, because you are concerned about me.
So far on this forum, first you denied that I was your Brother but changed your mind later and said I was. Now you seem to be taking my salvation status away again and you are asking me to give my understanding of salvation, so you can tell me if I am really saved.
No here is the real kicker...
If salvation were not such as serious matter, this would be funny.
The whole issue is over whether or not a person can loose their salvation.
If I ever need an opinion on the issue, I will consult God's Word.
However, thanks for volunteering yourself as "Salvation Judge".
.
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