Sins of the prophet Muhammad

Bookofknowledge · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
This is, I think what separates us: Muslims are lacking in a true understanding of what it means to love. For you believe that God hates wicked people.

Deny the lost nations which were destroyed by Allah and yours will be the only nation which is left to commit wicked deeds and not get punished.

Allah is The Just.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

One more to add:

John 13:35:By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

If we are to call ourselves followers of Jesus, we must love one another. You hate me because I do not believe what you believe. Jesus did not hate those who didn't believe what He believed.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
Deny the lost nations which were destroyed by Allah and yours will be the only nation which is left to commit wicked deeds and not get punished.

Allah is The Just.

God is indeed just and the wicked will receive punishment. Does a father who punished a disobedient child cease to love the child?

Muslim · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Nope, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One. I've pretty much given up on trying to explain it to Muslims, as most of those I speak to do not even attempt to understand. It never ceases to amaze me though, that Muslims always attempt to put limits on what God can do while professing that He is all powerful in the same breath.

I'm trying to understand, but as far as I can tell, most Christians can't even explain it themselves. They make static statements which do nothing but reaffirm what was written. I would rather place an emphasis on the interpretation of the concept of the trinity in the Bible rather than just repeat what it says.

Also, your confused about the term "all powerful", and you take it too literally. It is not true that God can do anything, because if thats the case then can God do something evil? Can God ever be unjust? You will most likely say no, otherwise it would contradict everything you believe about your God.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

God could indeed do something unjust, but since He is just, He does not and never will.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

I can't offer a more comprehensive explanation than this: The Athanasian Creed. It's long, but worth reading:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.[/font]

Muslim · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
God could indeed do something unjust, but since He is just, He does not and never will.

What you are doing is comparing God to human standards. For instance, a pious man could commit an evil act, but doesn't do so because he is good. But God cannot commit evil, it is not in his nature.

Muslim · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. [/font]

This is what I'm talking about. If Jesus is sitting on the right side of God, then that means that there are two Gods. And also, how can God give birth to himself. That is like saying God wasn't perfect to begin with so he needed to have a son to complete himself.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

Muslim said:
What you are doing is comparing God to human standards. For instance, a pious man could commit an evil act, but doesn't do so because he is good. But God cannot commit evil, it is not in his nature.

No it is not in His nature, but if He desired to commit such an act, He could. Since He is not unjust and is all good though, He never has and never will. That doesn't mean it's not in His power to do so if it were not His nature.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

Muslim said:
This is what I'm talking about. If Jesus is sitting on the right side of God, then that means that there are two Gods. And also, how can God give birth to himself. That is like saying God wasn't perfect to begin with so he needed to have a son to complete himself.

To sit at the right hand of the Father is not literal. It implies equality.

God was always perfect. When Jesus was conceived, God's spirit was poured out into the flesh that was the person of Jesus. That is why Jesus is God and man. The Divine that is Jesus is the same as teh Divine that is God the Father though.

I have to go to class now, but I'll be happy to talk about this some more when I get home.

Book of Knowledge, I think you may have missed the point of what I said about love, since you skipped over it in your response. Please take the time to try to understand love. Without it, we are nothing. Peace.

Bookofknowledge · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
God is indeed just and the wicked will receive punishment. Does a father who punished a disobedient child cease to love the child?

Yes, there is a limit for giving warning before executing the punishment - Allah has given signs and sent messengers to warn mankind and bring them to right path but the wicked among the people denied the truth thus gone are the people of Nuh, Pharoah, Thamud, Lot and those who once dwell in the city of lofty pillars and many others who thought no harm shall afflict them.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

If God hates the people He punishes, why does He bother to warn them? He must care for them and want them to do what is right, otherwise He'd just wipe them out without giving warning.

Dawah · Mar 7, 2005

Green Man said:
Two interpretations,both going against the christian belief,therefore in the christian view,both are wrong.

again you argue for the christain beliefs..are you a christain or athiest?!

Dawah · Mar 7, 2005

Dawah said:
Dawah said:

Didn't you said that you are an unbelieving infidel why you argue for the christain believes?

Click to expand...

Green Man said:

Just because I don't believe it doesn't mean I don't know something about it.

Click to expand...

we don't argue for everything we know,do we?!

Dawah · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
If I believed what was in the Qur'an is from God, I would be a Muslim, not a Christian, wouldn't I? I believe that you do not adhere to what God has said in the Bible. You don't see me getting hostile about it though. Can Muslims not have dialogue without gnashing teeth and getting angry?

i can see you are the angry one

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

Dawah said:
i can see you are the angry one

How am I angry? BoK was the one typing in all caps and telling me God would punish me. I have shown nothing but respect to Muslims. I have begun a peaceful dialogue and have been met with spite and anger. I don't have a problem with Muslims. I don't hate Muslims. Many of you seem to hate me, however.

Muslim · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
How am I angry? BoK was the one typing in all caps and telling me God would punish me. I have shown nothing but respect to Muslims. I have begun a peaceful dialogue and have been met with spite and anger. I don't have a problem with Muslims. I don't hate Muslims. Many of you seem to hate me, however.

Your right. You have been respectful and calm throughout this thread. I personally do not hate you. I might get a little hot tempered every once in a while and post a negative comment about someone. But I will never mock Christian beliefs. I do however, try to analyze them and compare them to Islamic beliefs.

InnerPhyre · Mar 7, 2005

Muslim said:
Your right. You have been respectful and calm throughout this thread. I personally do not hate you.

Thank you

Muslim said:
I might get a little hot tempered every once in a while and post a negative comment about someone. But I will never mock Christian beliefs.

This happens to the best of us. We are human and religion is a difficult topic to discuss without getting heated.

Muslim said:
I do however, try to analyze them and compare them to Islamic beliefs.

Nothing wrong with that. I do the same. Peace.

Dawah · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Please take the time to try to understand love. Without it, we are nothing.

you know what this is the love we know:

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
"O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him, lowly with the Believers, mighty against the Rejecters, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." [005:054]

Dawah · Mar 7, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
I don't have a problem with Muslims. I don't hate Muslims.

i'm so glad to hear that..

InnerPhyre said:
Many of you seem to hate me, however.

i don't

Sins of the prophet Muhammad

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