Sinners Prayer?

onwingsaseagles said:

I quoted the whole verse. You can read the entire book of James and it will not change th fact that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

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"we are justified by works and not by faith alone."


1. You are on record. You had better have a good attorney when you face the LORD God when you depart this world. Of course, "the entire book of James" is for your obedience, let's see how honest you are:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

Of course, you have not read Romans, have you? Shall we go over a few verses, or "the entire book" of Romans? How about Galatians. How about Ephesians? Eph. 2:8-9 perhaps? Ever paid for a "gift"? Oh, let's not discuss Romans 6:23, "the gift of God." Nah!


Tell everyone on this board that you keep "the whole law." The standard for righteousness is the Lord Jesus Christ, not other people=100% righteous(not 67%, 99%, 99.98786%.....) Go ahead. When you die, make sure you have not "offend(ed) in one point." You, and everyone of us, are dirty, rotten, no-good sinners, and GUILTY as charged. Our only hope is trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, not our works. Being a former "Roman", I asked my mom recently, a Catholic, what the "good news", i.e., the gospel of Christ? I asked her what the bad news is? I asked her why Christ died, if we can obtain eternal life through our own righteousness(works). She had no answer. Most Catholics do not-most "religions" are clueless.

2. Then you are not justified-that is what Muslims, Hindus, Catholics....="religion" argues-the opposite of Christianity. Nothing distinguishes what you argue from all other "religions."

Religion says "behave"- Christianity says "believe".
Religion says "try" - Christianity says "trust".
Religion says "do", - Christianity says "done".


Tell all of us on the board what differentiates your "we are justified by works" from other "religions"? That is what they say.

[FONT=&quot]3. Before the LORD saved me 10 years ago I spent most of my time reading the TV Guide and couldn't care less about the Bible. However, the LORD was "longsuffering"(Romans 2:4, 1 Timothy 1:16) toward me and most gracious, and showed me the "gospel of God.......concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord..."(Romans 1:1-3). To think that the Lord Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh", who "...created all things..."(Revelation 4:11, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2), "made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant...And...humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.."(Philippians 2:7,8) for my sake-that is the definition of sacrificial love! And he showed his love by dying in my place while I was a sinner and an enemy of God(Romans 5:8,10)! Amazing! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is one thing to die for a loved one, but quite another thing to die for someone who is your enemy and had shown not the least bit of interest toward you. The Greeks had a word for a gift that was given without any expectation of return-grace('charis'). However, in the Greco-Roman world, grace was always exercised toward a friend, not an enemy. Thus, to the "natural man", who "...receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him..."(1 Corinthians 2:14), and who embraces the "...wisdom of this world...", which is "...foolishness with God..."(1 Cor. 3:19), it is "natural", "logical", to "...love them which love you..."(Matthew5:46). The world does "...love his own..."(John 15:19) and therefore bestows gifts to its' own(Christmas time, for eg.) The Bible terms this "...the spirit of the world..."(1 Cor. 2:12) and contrasts this with "...the spirit which is of God.." The "spirit which is of God" is demonstrated by the cross. The "good news"(this is what 'gospel' means), the "...gospel of the grace of God..."(Acts 20:24) is that we have "...peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..."(Romans 5:1), we have been "...reconciled....by Jesus Christ(2 Cor. 5:18-think on this-only enemies need reconciliation) by his death(Romans 5:10), by the cross(Ephesians 2:16), by his blood(Romans 3:25, 5:9; Colossians 1:20; Exodus 12:13-notice here "...when I see the blood...", not behavior!), and by his identification with(2 Cor. 5:20,21) and substitution for(="for our"-1 Cor. 15:3,Romans 5:8, Galatians 1:4) sinners. And this "...gift of God..."(Romans 6:23), this "...free gift...unto justification of life"(Romans 5:18) in which we are "...justified freely by his grace..."(Romans3:24), is appropriated "...by faith..."(Romans 5:1).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The gospel of the grace of God centers on the fact that God went to the extreme, doing what to the "natural man" is unthinkable and "foolishness"(1 Cor. 1:18), becoming a man and dying in man's place("for") so that man might be reconciled and thus avoid the "wages of sin", which is "death"(Romans 6:23). Two truths stand out in the Bible. First, that God, being just and righteous, cannot and will not be satisfied with anything that man can be or do to affect his salvation-Romans 3:10-12, Isaiah 64:6, Ephesians 2:8,9 , Romans 7:18 just to name a few. Second, that God is completely satisfied with everything that the Lord Jesus Christ is and has already done. News, by definition, is something that has already happened! Think on this. To insist that God would be foolish to save man gratuitously, without any conditions attached, is to disregard and insult the infinite worth of the life of the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ, who was crushed at Calvary so that "...we might be made the righteousness of God in him."(2 Cor. 5:21). Sadly, most reject "...the gift of God " which is "..eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"(Romans 6:23). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And how do most reject this gift of eternal life? By trying to "earn it" through a performance-based system-man presents his "good works" as a basis for acceptance with God. Think on this: How is it that we are graciously able to accept a gift from another, without feeling obligated to "return the favor", or ask, "How much do I owe you for this gift?", but are unable, or just outright refuse, to extend God our creator and provider the same regard?(For eg., what would your reaction be if a loved one, after receiving a gift from you, said "How much do I owe you?" This is exactly what people are doing when they attempt to present their "good works" to God as a basis of their acceptance with him-they are presenting a claim, a "debt owed" to God-God will be a debtor to no one! Why do we "...frustrate the grace of God.."?(Galatians2:21). But as it is written, "...for if righteousness came by the law, Christ is dead in vain."(Gal. 2:21) [/FONT]

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4. [FONT=&quot]"To employ soft words and honeyed phrases in discussing questions of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]everlasting importance; to deal with errors that strike at the foundations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of all human hope as if they were harmless and venial mistakes; to bless[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]where God disapproves, and to make apologies where He calls us to stand up[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]like men and assert, though it may be the aptest method of securing popular[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]applause in a sophistical age, is cruelty to man and treachery to heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Those who on such subjects attach more importance to the rules of courtesy[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]than they do the measure of truth do not defend the citadel but betray it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]into the hands of its' enemies. Love for Christ, and for the souls for[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]whom he died, will be the exact measure of our zeal in exposing the dangers[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]by which men's souls are ensnared". (by a Christian writer whose name I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]cannot cite)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Please reflect on the following from "...the scripture of truth...."(Daniel 10:21), which "...is true from the beginning...."(Psalms119:160), for the LORD "...hast magnified thy word above all thy name"(Psalms 138:2). Those who deny the inspiration and truth of God's word are thus partaking in the first lie of the Bible, when Satan(the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]serpent) asked the woman:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] "...Yea, hath God said...."?(Genesis 3:1)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I love people enough to give them the truth, whether they asked for it or not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And just as important as them knowing the truth as contained in the Bible,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]since "...thy word is truth...."(John 17:17), is the truth "holding on to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]them". I pray that you do not "...cast down the truth to the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ground...."(Daniel 8:12). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. To be saved from the just penalty of sin, which is eternal separation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]from the LORD God("death"-Romans 6:23), you must know and acknowledge this[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]truth: There is one thing that the LORD God, the Judge of all and the Jury[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of all expects from you. He expects you to stop saying things in your own[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]defense. It is not sin that ultimately keeps men from the presence of the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LORD and eternal life. The sin issue was settled by the death, burial, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ("the gospel"-1 Corinthians 15:1-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]nearly 2000 years ago. It is the sin of unbelief of this gospel, the root[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of this unbelief being pride, that shuts out heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The LORD in His infinite love for you has made full provision for the sin[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]problem. He paid for it in full(John 19:30). But He has made no provision[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]for a self righteous attitude. Scripture pleads with you, as an attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]would advise an accused criminal: "It would be to your advantage to plead[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]guilty and throw yourself upon the mercy of the court. Keep defending[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]yourself and you will never be saved; but throw yourself upon the mercy[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and grace of God and He will graciously, with open arms, both forgive and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]justify you through the Lord Jesus Christ", as it is written:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]by the law of Moses". Acts 13:38,39[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin". Romans 3:20[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of the law". Romans 3:28[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness". Romans 4:5[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". Galatians 2:16[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]law, then Christ is dead in vain". Galatians 2:21[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. Regarding God's purpose concerning human beings(notice "beings', not[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"doings"):[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] God is not making angels of human beings. God can create in holiness and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]sustain in holiness millions of angels, and He has done so(Psalms 68:17,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 33:2, Daniel 7:10, Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 5:11)- creatures[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]who have never sinned. He calls them His "holy angels"(Mt. 25:31,Mark[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:38, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:10), and His "mighty angels"(2 Thessalonians[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1:7).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But God never speaks of grace in connection with angels. Grace is a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]loving pardon and favor shown to lost, guilty, law-breakers, wretches and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]helpless criminals. Grace can never be anything else.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The reason most will miss heaven is that they want to be angels instead[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of saved sinners. God has already declared this race("in Adam"-1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Corinthians 15:22) to be lost("guilty"-Romans 3:19), and that all are[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]sinners(no exceptions-Romans 3:23); that there "is no[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]difference"((Romans3:22), that there "is none that are righteous"(Romans[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3:10), but He has purposes of grace toward us, i.e., although utterly[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]undeserving of any favor from Him and being guilty, yet He will freely[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]pardon, justify, and give eternal life to any member of this lost race who[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is willing to be made the object of His charity as an utter beggar and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]criminal.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For God desires to display His own attributes of grace-His ability and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]nature to forgive offenses, pardon insults, pity misery, cleanse impurity,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]save sinners, redeem outcasts, crown beggars, glorify wretches, bestow[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]blessing where cursing and wrath would be the necessary, deserved, and the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]expected outcome![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] However, men rebel at this treatment-scripture calls this "...the way of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cain...."(Jude 11)- the modern term for this is "religion"-man presenting[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]his works as his basis for his acceptance with God. They refuse charity,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]forgiveness, mercy, and grace because, although sinners, they wish to go to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]heaven as angels. Man's pride resists admission that they are fallen,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]degraded, guilty, filthy, rag-covered, lost, and wretched. Man refuses to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]admit that the human race is a ruined race-irreparably, un retrievably[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ruined, and under judgement; exposed to the wrath of God, "...by nature the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]children of wrath...."(Ephesians 2:3); and travelling to doom. And unless[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]by absolute sovereign, divine intervention, no one would be saved. Notice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the question that every person should ask themselves:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] "...Who then can be saved"?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] And recall the answer the Lord Jesus Christ gave:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "...With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]things are possible"(Mark 10:26,27).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The gospel of the grace of God is the end of religion-the final posting[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of the "closed" sign on the "sweatshop" of the human races' never ending[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]struggle to think well of itself(pride). For that, at bottom, is what[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]religion is: man's(often well intentioned) dim-witted attempt to approve[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of his unapprovable condition by doing odd jobs he thinks "some important[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Something"("THE UNKNOWN GOD"-Acts 17:23) will thank him for. Religion is[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]thus a loser- a strictly fallen activity. Religion has a failed past and a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bankrupt future. There was no religion in Eden and there won't be any in[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]heaven. And in the meantime, the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, was[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]buried, and rose again the third day(1 Cor. 15:1-4-the "good news"), and is[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]telling you to "knock it off right now"("...every mouth be[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]stopped...."-Romans 3:19)=SHUT YOUR MOUTH and ADMIT YOUR GUILT..[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The question is, will you present the sacrifice of a sincere effort to be[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]moral and religious(just as Cain did), or accept the God-provided sacrifice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]for all sin in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, as Abel did? Will[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]you notice that the LORD said "...when I see the blood...."(Exodus 12:13),[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and not "...when I see your behavior and good works"?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Scripture's constant unifying theme is that regeneration, and the whole[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]transforming work of redemption, are accomplished solely on the ground of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the sacrificial blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and his[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]resurrection 3 days later; and if these statements of scripture are[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]rejected, whether that rejection come from the pope, a priest, a nun, a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]minister, a "reverend", a pastor, a bishop, an elder, a so-called "biblical[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]expert", a "theologian", a "professor", a "philosopher", or extra-biblical[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]authority(for example, the "Book of Mormon", the Watch Tower Society of the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jehovah's Witnesses, the Catholic Catechism............), the discussion[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]can never be one of interpretation of the scriptures, but it becomes a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]question of the authority of the testimony of the scriptures.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] "...speaking the truth in love.....(Ephesians 4:15)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] In Christ,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John Whalen[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] "...behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is day of salvation.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2 [/FONT]

onwingsaseagles said:

James 2:24 You see then that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone.

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I think there may be some confusion about the word. As a point of interest, it is dikaiountai (pres. passive indicative 3rd per. sing. of dikaiow) which gives the sense of exhibiting or evincing one to be righteous, i.e., the 'fruits' of righteousness. That is different from what Paul says about being 'justified' freely (dikaioumenoi dwrean) which has the sense of 'acquitted,' that without (chwris, separate from, apart from) the law.

Paul refers to a juridicial act. James refers to the fruits of that act in the life.

Dave

darkshadow said:

JMWHALEN,

If you would like to start a thread regarding baptism that would be fine, but could you not take over this one and stick to the topic.

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I agree. However, I did not start the "going off course" on baptism. I responded to others comments/posts on the subject. They needed to be addressed. I will refrain from the subject, assuming everone else does, including yourself. Agreed? If not, I will correct, rebuke, instruct, with all "longsuffering", per the scriptural command/admonition(not suggestion) to preach "sound doctrine", if I feel the interpretation/doctrine does not "line up" with the Holy Bible, rightly divided(2 Timothy 2:15). So, will you "stick to the topic", and not "take over this one" by commenting on baptism? And will others? Why did you not address this to those who started the baptism discussion.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

darkshadow said:

JMWHALEN,

If you would like to start a thread regarding baptism that would be fine, but could you not take over this one and stick to the topic.

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____________-
Darkshadow,
[FONT=&quot]Your posts on baptism[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]#3[/FONT]
“What about Acts 2:38 when it says, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Isn't baptism a part of salvation? Don't you have to be baptized to be saved?

[FONT=&quot]#58[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT]Your use of the thief on the cross does not work. Baptism is the sybolism of Christ's death, and resurrection, you can not have a symbol of something before it has happened.”

#62

“The Bible is clear about baptism being a part of salvation, and who we are baptized into. The fact still remains the immersion baptism, that is mentioned in the New Testament, is commanded by Christ. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.." - Matthew 28:19-20a. and Peter, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:39. When Paul is speaking of being glad he did not baptize any of them, was because the people were treating him as if he was a god, and he was glad that he had not, unintentionally, went with what they were doing. Johns baptism was of repentance, the baptism we have now is a baptism into Christ's death and resurrection. It is a baptism of forgiveness and salvation. The thread however, is about the origin of the "Sinners Prayer".

3 posts of yours re. baptism before I even made 1 comment.

#80
“Baptism as we know it is not a Jewish ritual like circumcision. In fact, we are told circumcision does not save you, but we are told baptism does forgive sins. You are trying to compare the Law of the Old Testament or Covenant, and the New Covenant, and intertwine them. We are under the commands of the New Testament and those of the Old that Christ "reinstated". The baptism of John the Baptist (John the Baptizer) was a baptism of repentance, not of forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Both of these passages speak of circumcision and how we are no longer under the Law, and as Gentiles especially do not follow the Law.

Acts 15:1-20
Galatians 3:1-25

I believe they maybe helpful.”


#85
“Again baptism as we know it is not a Jewish ritual. If Christ instructed us to follow this "Jewish" ritual, we would be under the Law which we are not. Circumcision is a Jewish ritual, along with ritual washing of the hands and feet, neither of which is commanded by Christ, unlike baptism. Baptism symbolizes the death and resurrection of our Lord. As we go under the water and come back up, we are symbolically buried and rise a new creature in Christ. The Jewish baptismal was not a baptism of Christ's death and resurrection but of repentance, and cleansing not of the soul but of the body. We are Gentiles and therefore would not be under cerimonial cleansing. In fact, no one is under the Jewish cleansing laws that is in Christ. You can not apply Paul's argument of circumcision not saving can not be used concerning baptism. Baptism as stated is commanded by Christ, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." - Matthew 28:19a, he does not circumcision. "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." - 1 Corinthians 17:19.
This is however, off topic to how the "Sinners Prayer" saves and its origin.”

Please explain the preceding in light of your request to me. Why did you not "stick to the topic"?
In Christ, John M. Whalen

darkshadow said:

First off I started the thread so if I want to take it to the moon and back I will, second I have tried to get it back on topic, but people like you want to have 3 continuous posts off topic. Lastly, #3 was within the context, I was asking why baptism is not a part of the sinners prayer, #58 trying to help a brother in Christ, with a misunderstanding of Christian baptism, and #80 and #85 the same as #3. I did however, comment that it was off topic. Let me ask you a question. You said it was off topic, don't see you trying to put it back on. Why not?

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"but people like you want to have 3 continuous posts off topic..."

My comment: Thank you for the condescending response(sarcasm is a biblical principle, but it is probably "off topic", according to "people like you", right?)

"3 continuous posts off topic."

My comment: "continuous"? So, your issue is not that I was "off topic", since you started the "take it to the moon", but that you did not like the length of my posts, and it was not really me addressing the baptism argument, was it? You really need to be more careful in laying out your objections/argument.


"Lastly, #3 was within the context, I was asking why baptism is not a part of the sinners prayer,..."

My comment: "within the context"? So, you decide "what is within the context", and do not expect to be challenged by others on your assessment/judgment? That may be appropriate for "The Oprah Winfrey Show"/"The View", where everyone's "opinion" is valid, but not here where "sound doctrine"(1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9, 2:1) must be taught, and that which is "contrary" and opposed to sound doctrine must be refuted. If "people like you" are going to bring up a subject , such as baptism, as part of your "argument"(reasons for a conclusion),"within the context" of the topic, then expect to be "called" on your premises within your argument. This is called debating, and biblical(Acts 17:11).

"#58 trying to help a brother in Christ, with a misunderstanding of Christian baptism..."

My comment:

"trying to help a brother in Christ"

That is what I was doing, "...to exhort and to convince the gainsayers(Titus 1:9). Are you inferring that "people like me", when we provide our assessment/judgment/interpretation of a topic you brought up, do not/could not, have the same motives?


"with a misunderstanding of Christian baptism"

And I was biblically correcting you, as you were attempting to do, of your "misunderstanding of "Christian baptism." Are you arguing only you, the topic starter, has this duty, admonition, right....? Yes, you are, as you state:

"First off I started the thread so if I want to take it to the moon and back I will,"


Wrong.Any statements made by you, or others, will be "called", if they do not line up with the scriptures, rightly divided, regardless of your perspective on "the ground rules." This is scriptural. This forum is not a talk show.

_________________________________________________________

I posted:
"I will refrain from the subject, assuming everone else does, including yourself. Agreed?....So, will you "stick to the topic", and not "take over this one" by commenting on baptism? And will others? Why did you not address this to those who started the baptism discussion.."


As a spiritual application, the Lord Jesus Christ many times "walked away" from "nonsense", "...Let them alone..."(Mt. 15:14). And since you did not tell me the answers to the above questions of mine,

"....Neither do I tell..."(Mark 11:33) you.

"...What I have written I have written."(John 19:22).

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Again baptism as we know it is not a Jewish ritual.

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Again , water baptism ( mitzvah ) is a Jewish ritual . There is no "as we know it" - it is what it is . It is the mitzvah with which John was involved and Jesus' disciples at the time were doing .

Even if it is different , somehow , it is still a ritual and Paul's argument against circumcism can be applied to it .

Also , in 5 writings - FIVE - it is stated ( some even quoting Jesus ) that John baptized in water - Jesus would baptize in the Spirit . Since there is ONE baptism for salvation , I choose Jesus' baptism and not a human's demand for me to jump through hoops to boast in my flesh .

Using the plan that you must: Believe, Repent, Confess, Be Baptized by water, and Teach the Word in some form,

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There is no such "plan" as that which is a *must* for me .

However , from what I have seen , those that provide the "sinner's prayer" to people will add that they must be water baptized , "go to church" , read the "bible" , and other laws for works to maintain their own salvation .