Sinners are gonna go to Hell!

[desi]

How come most churches don't teach about sinners going to Hell anymore? It seems they encourage us to be nice to others, shake hands, put money in the basket, and finally offer a joke or amusing anecdote before sending us on our way... Is there a reason scaring people of Hell has fallen out of fashion, and is it correlated to emptier pews, rampant divorce, and open homosexuality among self professed Christians?

 

[clonenomore]

I think that the pendulum has swung the opposite way. I know that when I was growing up, people spent too much time trying to scare people out of hell, when we should have been loving people into Heaven. I don't think that we should act like there's no hell, and that people don't go there -- that would be a false teaching. Hell exists, and the unsaved go there. However, we shouldn't dwell on hell.

Author Aubrey Malphurs reports that we are a 2nd and 3rd generation "unchurched" society. What he means is that when we were growing up, there was the expectation that you would be in church on Sunday morning. Now, that expectation isn't there. You can't just open the doors of the church and say, "Come on in!" because the unchurched is not in the parking lot listening! We also live in a society that says, "What's in it for me now?" We have to show what's in it now, so we can then get them to then listen to the full Gospel. Preaching "hellfire and brimstone" up front isn't the way to get people to listen.

I don't think that the fact that we don't preach "hellfire and brimstone" has led to an increase in divorce, promiscuity, homosexuality, etc. I don't think that the current style has led to empty pews. I would argue that a decrease in Christians witnessing has possibly contributed to the rise in those issues. We should be out spreading the Great News of the Gospel to ALL that we meet! That's the only way that we can increase the number of those going to Heaven with us! Our job is to spread the Kingdom!

Just my $0.02 worth...

 

[chava]

I think the reason this is so confussing is because the world as we know it has turned into chaos. Especially among believers. I think the people who don't teach Hell are trying to please the world while the others that teach Hell too much are trying to impress the church people. They in otherwords are acting too worldly (Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your minds) or too religious (Beware of practicing your righteousness to be seen by men) They have gone to extremes. They are neither edifying nor convicting both of which Christians should be in love.

 

[clonenomore]

I think the reason this is so confussing is because the world as we know it has turned into chaos. Especially among believers. I think the people who don't teach Hell are trying to please the world while the others that teach Hell too much are trying to impress the church people. They in otherwords are acting too worldly (Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your minds) or too religious (Beware of practicing your righteousness to be seen by men) They have gone to extremes. They are neither edifying nor convicting both of which Christians should be in love.

Chave, that's what I was trying to say, but you said it so much better. We can't be extremists to either side. I love your last sentence:

They are neither edifying nor convicting both of which Christians should be in love.

Consider what God says through Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NLT):

"If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything about everything, but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever."

Without love, we are nothing. Finally, consider 1 Peter 3:15-16a (NIV):

"But in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect..."

As I said in an earlier post on this topic, we do not have to beat people over the head with our Bible. In fact, Peter says, "Don't do that!" We are to share the Great News of the Gospel with gentleness and respect.

I read a Peanuts cartoon one time where Lucy says to Charlie Brown, "I would have made a great evangelist. I just convinced that boy over there that my religion is better than his." "How'd you do that?" asked Charlie Brown. Lucy replied, "I hit him over the head with my lunchbox." Unfortunately, that's how many of us witness. We pummel non-believers into praying the prayer to accept Christ, but is that a real conversion? Will that person still be a "believer" 1 year from now? 1 month? 1 week? Heck, even 1 hour from now. No! As soon as they can get away from us, they will be back into the same old lifestyle.

An overzealous young pastor felt that it was his calling to agressively "convert" everyone that rode the city bus sytem a Christian. He took to riding the bus daily, with the old family Bible -- you know the kind; big enough to choke a goat. One day, an drunk man stumbled onto the bus. The young preacher saw his chance. He jumped up, put that big Bible in the drunk's face, and shouted, "Did you know you're headed hell?!" The drunk looked around crazily, and muttered, "Oh, no! I'm on the wrong bus again!" Sometimes our methods overshadow the message.

Again, just my $0.02 worth. I realize that God calls each of us to evangelize in the way that He created us...

 

[desi]

The idea of loving people into heaven doesn't seem to be consistent with what Jesus said and did. When he met sinners he pointed out their sin and said, "Go and sin no more." Today we seem to find sinners and place them in positions of authority in churches without holding them accoutable to avoid sin. We also remarry people who are not properly divorced, which makes us party to adultery. We seem to be tolerating sin. Doesn't this encourage sinners to NOT change, in effect aren't we loving unrepentent sinners straight into Hell!

 

[Corneliuseo]

desi:

Peace and Love be unto you. Your words are sound and of true value. Your understanding is according to the clear and written Word of God!

My the Lord add a blessing to the hearer of your words.

 

[the truth]

There are some very good free audios at www.livingwaters.com One is called Hell's Best Kept Secret. I highly reccomend the listen. God bless.

 

[desi]

There are some very good free audios at www.livingwaters.com One is called Hell's Best Kept Secret. I highly reccomend the listen. God bless.

That video was really good!

 

[nobodynow]

God's purpose. everything is in God's power.
lawlessness / making our own laws will destroy some and call others back to God's purpose.
we have all made this bed, and those of us willing to re-make it can only do so though being God's people. His body.

 

[clonenomore]

desi, I think that we are missing each other's points. I agree with the idea behind what you are saying. Let me try to explain a little better what I mean.

First off, I disagree with this statement:

The idea of loving people into heaven doesn't seem to be consistent with what Jesus said and did. When he met sinners he pointed out their sin and said, "Go and sin no more."

The idea of loving people into Heaven follows Christ's ministry exactly. In fact, the quote that you use shows that. Jesus didn't preach hellfire and damnation. Love permeated His teachings. Consider John 8:3-11 (ESV):

The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

Jesus didn't try to scare this woman out of hell. He loved her so much that He stood up for her. She is to return that love by acting in accordance with God's will.

And that's my point. I try not to sin -- not because I am afraid of hell, but because I want to return the love that Christ showed for me. Even though I was a loser -- a drug and alcohol abuser with an anger management problem, Jesus said, "Come on over. I love you."

Today we seem to find sinners and place them in positions of authority in churches without holding them accoutable to avoid sin. We also remarry people who are not properly divorced, which makes us party to adultery. We seem to be tolerating sin. Doesn't this encourage sinners to NOT change, in effect aren't we loving unrepentent sinners straight into Hell!

I agree with the fact that we cannot put unrepentant sinners into positions of authority in the church. A practicing homosexual should not be the pastor, or in any other leadership position. However, is the best way to reach that person to scream that they should repent or go to hell? No, that will only drive them away before we can tell the Great News of the Gospel!

I don't mean that should condone sin -- sin is evil, and we must rebuke evil. But we have to love the sinner, while hating the sin. People mattered to Jesus, so they must matter to us. Jesus didn't hang out with the religious people, He hung out with the tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, etc. He hung out with those that needed healing. And He showed them that He loved them. That is what I am saying...

 

[desi]

desi, I think that we are missing each other's points. I agree with the idea behind what you are saying. Let me try to explain a little better what I mean.

First off, I disagree with this statement:



The idea of loving people into Heaven follows Christ's ministry exactly. In fact, the quote that you use shows that. Jesus didn't preach hellfire and damnation. Love permeated His teachings. Consider John 8:3-11 (ESV):



Jesus didn't try to scare this woman out of hell. He loved her so much that He stood up for her. She is to return that love by acting in accordance with God's will.

And that's my point. I try not to sin -- not because I am afraid of hell, but because I want to return the love that Christ showed for me. Even though I was a loser -- a drug and alcohol abuser with an anger management problem, Jesus said, "Come on over. I love you."



I agree with the fact that we cannot put unrepentant sinners into positions of authority in the church. A practicing homosexual should not be the pastor, or in any other leadership position. However, is the best way to reach that person to scream that they should repent or go to hell? No, that will only drive them away before we can tell the Great News of the Gospel!

I don't mean that should condone sin -- sin is evil, and we must rebuke evil. But we have to love the sinner, while hating the sin. People mattered to Jesus, so they must matter to us. Jesus didn't hang out with the religious people, He hung out with the tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, etc. He hung out with those that needed healing. And He showed them that He loved them. That is what I am saying...

True. Jesus hung around with those who he needed to, and did, influence while the others who found themselves in positions of authority as Pharisees conspired to crucify him. Do we not crucify Jesus every time we remarry a divorced person to another. Do we not prolong his misery as we string along the wayward children of divorce... The children are God's charge. By allowing other men than their fathers to handle them we sin by default!!! Damn the tithe gained by remarriage, if a woman remarries after she initiates divorce it is S I N ! How else can I say it peers? The statistics on drug use and premarital sex among divorced alone is staggaring! Stop working with Satan in this area! It is ravaging our youth!

 

[clonenomore]

...Do we not crucify Jesus every time we remarry a divorced person to another. Do we not prolong his misery as we string along the wayward children of divorce... The children are God's charge. By allowing other men than their fathers to handle them we sin by default!!! Damn the tithe gained by remarriage, if a woman remarries after she initiates divorce it is S I N !

Once again, don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that we should all go out and sin just because we are living under the grace of Jesus. I agree that we crucify Jesus again everytime that we sin. Because of the love that Jesus showed for me, I don't want to hurt Him -- even though I do because I am not perfect.

How else can I say it peers? The statistics on drug use and premarital sex among divorced alone is staggaring! Stop working with Satan in this area! It is ravaging our youth!

I think that we are just going to have to agree to disagree as Christian brothers on this. While I agree with your statement of the problem, we have a disagreement on the methods that we should use to reach these people. I still say that we have to reach out as Jesus did -- in love. The heart will not be changed if the person will not listen. We must reach out in love to get the person's attention -- then they will be ready to listen to the entire Gospel. We have to go where the unchurched are, and meet them there. As I heard a preacher say one time, "We love you enough to meet you where you are, but we love you too much to leave you there." So we have to get them in the boat, and God will clean them.

I guess another way to look at it is that God calls us all to ministry. He made me and you specifically for the ministry that He is calling us to. So it stands to reason that we will each have different methodology in our ministries. God has called me to minister to the "radically unchurched" -- by that I mean the people like the old me. Those that are living wild and hedonistic, but refuse to listen -- especially to "preachers". Those that hurt the people close to them that are praying for them. I was there -- so I know what it takes for me to introduce the Holy Spirit to them. And what it takes is a demonstration of the love that Christ has for all of us.

I will continue to pray for you and your ministry. I hope that you will add me to your prayers.

 

[pastel]

Jesus gave both, an invitation, and a warning. I do believe we should hear a balanced message at the pulpit.

 

[AngelusSax]

If all sinners go to hell, we're all headed there. Everyone on this board. No one lives a perfect life, and as such we're all sinners.

Or to put it another way:

I'm not saying that we should all go out and sin just because we are living under the grace of Jesus. I agree that we crucify Jesus again everytime that we sin. Because of the love that Jesus showed for me, I don't want to hurt Him -- even though I do because I am not perfect.

It's not that we want to sin. It's that we do, and beating people over the head with condemnation is the quickest way to make them not care anymore... unless we're really good at just scaring them into submission of how we see things.

 

[clonenomore]

It's not that we want to sin. It's that we do, and beating people over the head with condemnation is the quickest way to make them not care anymore... unless we're really good at just scaring them into submission of how we see things.

I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is really heavy on my heart right now. In fact, I am working on a message that covers this very topic.

I am reading the book Speaking my Mind by noted sociologist, author, and preacher Tony Campolo. In this book, Tony discusses many of the controversioal topics that the church of Jesus is facing today. Last night I read the story that Tony tells of a friend of his that pastored a small inner-city church. This pastor received a call from the local funeral home one day. The funeral director asked this pastor to preach a funeral for a man who had died of AIDS. The director had called a lot of other preacher, but all turned him down, and the funeral was that afternoon. The pastor agreed to do it, and that afternoon he preached at this gay man's funeral. The funeral was attended almost entirely by gay men. After the service, they all went to the cemetary and the pastor spoke at the graveside. After the casket was lowered, and the dirt being piled on, the pastor turned to leave. He realized that all of the gay men were still standing silently at the gravesite. He asked if there was anything that he could do for them before he left. One of the men asked, "Can you read the 23rd Psalm? I was looking forward to hearing that verse, and you didn't read it." So the pastor read the 23rd Psalm. After that, another gay man asked him to read from the 8th chapter of Romans, where Paul tells us that nothing shall be able to separate us from God's love which is in Christ Jesus. That broke the silence. That pastor stood there for the next hour reading and discussion scripture with that group of gay men.

My heart hurt when I read this story. Here were a group of men that were thirsting for the Word, but would never set foot in a church because they feel (sometimes rightfully so) that the church despises them.

As I said, we can hate the sin, but we must love the sinner. People matter to God, and therefore they should matter to us. We have tried to beat people over the head with theology, and we have chased many away from the church. They thirst, but they cannot find a way to quench that thirst. I try to reach out in a way that they have never seen, and I know that the Holy Spirit will work through that.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get that off my chest before I explode.

 

[desi]

If all sinners go to hell, we're all headed there. Everyone on this board. No one lives a perfect life, and as such we're all sinners.

Or to put it another way:



It's not that we want to sin. It's that we do, and beating people over the head with condemnation is the quickest way to make them not care anymore... unless we're really good at just scaring them into submission of how we see things.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to give us discernment so we can avoid sin. Failure to be perfect and sin are not the same. It is possible to live a good life and not sin. This 'we're all sinners' is not of the Bible, it is Satan's lie encouraging us to stop living in righteousness. If you would embrace sinners and tell them all is well when it is not are you really helping them or are you turning your back on their souls while appeasing their flesh?

 

[desi]

As I said, we can hate the sin, but we must love the sinner. People matter to God, and therefore they should matter to us. We have tried to beat people over the head with theology, and we have chased many away from the church. They thirst, but they cannot find a way to quench that thirst. I try to reach out in a way that they have never seen, and I know that the Holy Spirit will work through that.

Sure people matter to God! Since pastors turned their back on preaching living in righteousness society has fallen away from living in righteousness. But maybe if you keep doing it you will get a different result...

 

[AngelusSax]

This 'we're all sinners' is not of the Bible, it is Satan's lie encouraging us to stop living in righteousness.

But isn't it great to know that Jesus forgives us when we mess up? I'm sure you've messed up. I know I have. I messed up yesterday. And I thank God for forgiveness. The God I know loves, he doesn't say "ok, 2 strikes... you're hellbound and beyond my help now."

Sure, we're supposed to try to live sinless. But the point is, we still do have flesh to contend with. Sometimes the flesh wins, and we don't even know it until after it's happened.

Ever seen a good looking woman and had that little light go off in your head? Better be careful... maybe you lusted and are now hellbound because forgiveness ran out on you.

Ever gotten angry with someone over some stupid argument? Careful... maybe you sinned and can never be forgiven because you chose not to avoid the sin at that time.

Or maybe we can realize Jesus forgave all sins on the cross, and when we do mess up (and yes, Paul writes that we're all sinners and we all receive the Grace of God), His Grace forgives us.

So sure, we can say "Oh, you sinned after you said you were saved, you're going to hell now!" and be prepared to recieve judgement as you dished it out. Or you can say, "OK, you sinned, but Jesus died to forgive, not to condemn."

If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.

 

[clonenomore]

...Or maybe we can realize Jesus forgave all sins on the cross, and when we do mess up (and yes, Paul writes that we're all sinners and we all receive the Grace of God), His Grace forgives us.

So sure, we can say "Oh, you sinned after you said you were saved, you're going to hell now!" and be prepared to recieve judgement as you dished it out. Or you can say, "OK, you sinned, but Jesus died to forgive, not to condemn."

If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.

Amen, amen, and amen!

 

[desi]

So sure, we can say "Oh, you sinned after you said you were saved, you're going to hell now!" and be prepared to recieve judgement as you dished it out. Or you can say, "OK, you sinned, but Jesus died to forgive, not to condemn."

If we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.

Which person in the New Testament knowingly sinned while they were a Christian?