Sinless perfection?

[StartedAtEly]

I heard someone saying the other day he didn't sin anymore. Is this even possible?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I heard someone saying the other day he didn't sin anymore. Is this even possible?

Sounds to me like he was committing the sin of spiritual pride right there.

It's possible if you're Jesus. Of course, as we grow in the Lord, we'll show improvement (if we don't, there's something wrong). And right now, as Christ-followers, we can stand before God "as though we'd never sinned", wearing Jesus' righteousness as though it were our own. Jesus has cast our sin "as far as the East is from the West", and that's how we can get into Heaven in the first place. But actually sinless? Not in this life.

 

[StartedAtEly]

Sounds to me like he was committing the sin of spiritual pride right there.

It's possible if you're Jesus. Of course, as we grow in the Lord, we'll show improvement (if we don't, there's something wrong). And right now, as Christ-followers, we can stand before God "as though we'd never sinned", wearing Jesus' righteousness as though it were our own. Jesus has cast our sin "as far as the East is from the West", and that's how we can get into Heaven in the first place. But actually sinless? Not in this life.

I've always been curious about it

 

[WannaWitness]

It depends largely on what was meant by it, and the attitude with which the person said it. It's possible that he could have meant that he strove to live a life free of deliberate and willful sin, in which case it is possible that, with the Lord's help, we can live a righteous life in Jesus Christ, honestly trying to please Him as best we know how. On the other hand, if he was implying that he was sinless and as infallible as God Himself, then that's "stinking thinking" in my book. After all, I've known a few people who, although they've never said anything directly, have put on this haughty, (what-you-call) "air" as though they believe they have "arrived", or have achieved the "highest level of holiness". Sorry to burst these people's bubbles, but as long as we are still on earth in these mortal and very human bodies, that isn't going to happen.

Anyone who is a saved Christian, and is allowing God to lead and guide them and work in their lives as they walk with Him every day, and doing their honest-to-gooness best to apply His Word, then such people are on the right track, and without doubt, will have an eternal home in Heaven where Jesus Himself is, and where everything will be new (including a flawless glorified body) - then, and only then, will complete perfection be achieved. That's the way I see it.

Hope this helped.

 

[coachboyd1982]

Take a look at 1 John chapter 1. It teaches that if someone says that they have no sin that he is a liar and the truth isnot in him. All of us sin everyday. We are none worthy. We do the best that we can everyday. The bible teaches that those who are saved do not practice sin. I look at practice like a coach. You knowingly do it regardless of knowing that it is wrong.

 

[StartedAtEly]

Take a look at 1 John chapter 1. It teaches that if someone says that they have no sin that he is a liar and the truth isnot in him. All of us sin everyday. We are none worthy. We do the best that we can everyday. The bible teaches that those who are saved do not practice sin. I look at practice like a coach. You knowingly do it regardless of knowing that it is wrong.

I get so upset. I sin lots, and WISH I didn't but sometimes the urge can be over powering. I wish I could be like these holiness guys

 

[coachboyd1982]

Temptation is hard to deal with. The fact that you feel shame for your sin is a good thing. It shows conviction. Those that are not saved have none. You keep trying and praying. My pastor always said when you feel tempted, just take out your bible and read some. A lot of times that helped me. Just reading for a few minutes helped me fight that temptation. Even so, I still sin everyday, and will continue to. Not because I want to, but because it is impossible not to. That is why we need Jesus. That is why He died. I will pray for you, and I hope you will pray for me too.

 

[A New Dawn]

Take a look at 1 John chapter 1. It teaches that if someone says that they have no sin that he is a liar and the truth isnot in him. All of us sin everyday. We are none worthy. We do the best that we can everyday. The bible teaches that those who are saved do not practice sin. I look at practice like a coach. You knowingly do it regardless of knowing that it is wrong.

I do not believe that that is what the Bible teaches. Unless you are talking about what happens after the resurrection and judgment.

 

[coachboyd1982]

Then how do you explain the Apostle Paul calling himself chief of all sinners and having to die daily to sin?

 

[A New Dawn]

Sorry, it was this part that I was disagreeing with.

The bible teaches that those who are saved do not practice sin.

 

[Life4Ever]

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Now my thoughts =)
What is sin? How do we each know what sin is? What if some of us don't know that certain things are a sin?

Jesus said:
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

God's spirit lives in us when we recieve the Holy Ghost and leads and guides us. There have been several times when I went to do something and I just stopped for some reason because I felt that it would be wrong. Have I ever done it anyways? Yeah... but I always felt bad after and felt that I needed to tell God sorry.

I think that as time goes by and you mature in Christ you will begin to follow his Spirit and His leading. Do I think there is a place where you can be sinless? We will always be tempted... We will all get angry, we will get irritated, stubborn, make the wrong decision etc. But none of those are sins... they can turn into a sin but in and of themselves they are just an emotion that can be handled in the right way or the wrong way.

There is a place in God you can get to where you dont sin anymore, its God... He's got enough power to give us and enough grace that if we pursue that with our whole hearts you can get there. Its a hard road with lots of hard learned lessons and trials. We should never be continuing willfully in sin. That is something different than getting into a low spot and going against what you know is right and needing forgivness etc. Big difference between the two.

Theres an endless road in Jesus... you can walk on it and make progress until the day you die and never reach His limits on what He can do in your life.

I do believe however that you can't be a child of God and continually sin every single day without thought and just say that your still saved because it also says:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So, If someone is committing sins daily and just going on there is no difference in their life than in a normal unborn again sinners life.
EVERYONE makes mistakes and everyone will need His forgiveness sometime or another in their christian walk butI believe that we should NEVER as christians think its okay to purposfully knowingly do what clearly goes against what we know to be true and right.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

He gives grace to those that needs it. He does NOT want us to continue in sin though!

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[HopeAbbey]

The first epistle of John was written (at least in part) to address this issue. You can see it right after his introduction. He states very clearly that we are liars if we say we have no sin (1:8-10). He also states very clearly that there is absolutely no excuse for having sin in our lives - we should not sin at all (1:5-7, 3:7-10). If we cannot hold these two ideas in tension, without letting one dominate the other, we will fall into the trap on one side (delusions of spiritual grandeur) or on the other (resignation to a life dominated by sin).

 

[Serena_7]

Temptation is hard to deal with. The fact that you feel shame for your sin is a good thing. It shows conviction. Those that are not saved have none. You keep trying and praying. My pastor always said when you feel tempted, just take out your bible and read some. A lot of times that helped me. Just reading for a few minutes helped me fight that temptation. Even so, I still sin everyday, and will continue to. Not because I want to, but because it is impossible not to. That is why we need Jesus. That is why He died. I will pray for you, and I hope you will pray for me too.

Amen!
Couldn't agree with you more.I also have problems with temptation,as I believe everyone does.And you are right,opening your Bible when you are being tempted in some way does help me to take my focus from whatever is tempting me and focus on the Lord instead,where indeed my mind and my heart should always be.

 

[Dan the Man]

Man, with the attitude of a lot of people around here you'd think half of the people here alone were perfect and without sin. But to answer your question seriously, I don't think there are perfect humans. Maybe some who come very close, but none who are completely sinless. But don't ask me to back that up with scripture, because I'm too lazy.

 

[coachboyd1982]

The first epistle of John was written (at least in part) to address this issue. You can see it right after his introduction. He states very clearly that we are liars if we say we have no sin (1:8-10). He also states very clearly that there is absolutely no excuse for having sin in our lives - we should not sin at all (1:5-7, 3:7-10). If we cannot hold these two ideas in tension, without letting one dominate the other, we will fall into the trap on one side (delusions of spiritual grandeur) or on the other (resignation to a life dominated by sin).

The way that I read verses 5-7 it talks about telling if someone is saved or not. When it talks about walking in darkness is to say that they are living in their sin and covering it up by saying they are saved. The ones that are walking in the light are those that are keeping their thoughts on Him and fighting the temptations. 3:7-10 is talking about the change that happens once you become saved. Once you become saved, truly saved you will not want to sin. The things that you once enjoyed will not satisfy you anymore. That's what it means by continuing to sin. 2:1 says "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;" When John refered to little children, he was referring to believers. (2:13) When Christ taught us to pray, He gave us what is known as the Lord's Prayer. This was not His prayer, but an example of how to pray. One of the key elements to that prayer was to ask forgiveness for our transgressions(sin). If we are to continually pray, and get to the point that we do not sin anymore, then why would Christ tell us to ask for forgiveness everytime we pray? The only one to live without sin was Christ. To say that we come to a place where we do not sin anymore, is to say that we will become equal to Him. There will never be another to live without sin.

 

[StartedAtEly]

So confusing

 

[paul1149]

The only way to reconcile the conflicting passages in 1Jn is to understand that John meant the saved person will not practice sin. He will sin, but his heart is not to do so. He will not endorse sin, he will condemn it. When he falls out of weakness or ignorance, he will lament it and abhor it.

A vital key to understanding this issue is to place it in the context of our identity in Christ. We sin, but God no longer sees us as sinners. He sees us as precious saints who sin. That distinction is of critical importance. Though we sin, our sin is not counted against us. This is why Paul writes:

blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” -Rom 4:8​

And when Hebrews, in comparing the merits of the OT animal sacrifices to that of the perfect sacrifice of Christ, tells us:

Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? -Heb 10:2​

... the writer is quite blatantly assuming that the Christian is not, or at least should not be, consumed with sin consciousness. There is only one way that is possible: to identify as sons of God, fully accepted by Him, despite our struggle with a sin nature:

So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. -Rom 7:17-18
​

So it is incorrect to say we no longer sin. That goes too far. But here's where we go into a bit of a mind warp: though we still sin, God says we are not sinners. Our identity in Christ is secure. We are saints accepted in the Beloved. Paul really drives our position home later in Romans:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -Rom 8.29-30​

It's amazing - and challenging - to see Paul use the past tense to describe our glorification. Of course, to reiterate, being Saved, we no longer desire to sin, but sin continues to work in us. But If we could see our dilemma in light of the completed works of Christ on our behalf- in a Biblical way, not a self-righteous way - we would be freed from many discouragements.