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"Sinless Perfection" before God.

reddogs

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  1. We have this verse given to us....

    Matthew 5:48
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    And we have...

    Genesis 17:1
    And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    And Christ Himself says....

    Matthew 19:21
    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    And then we have this...

    John 17:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    So what does it mean.
 

BobRyan

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1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

1 John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin not"

Romans 6 "sin shall not be master over you"

There comes a day - when there is no mediator in the temple in heaven... is that the time to start to be serious about it??

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Wouldn't there be just a "tinge" of panic in the heart if knew that tomorrow the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 would start and probation for all mankind ended?

wouldn't we "wish" for the previous two month to come back as a "do over"?

========================

IF you were one of the 12 disciples and about half way through Christ's ministry on Earth it dawned on you that Christ is "the Creator of the Universe" , that the Law of God is the Law of Christ - and that rebellion against His Law is treason against the Most High. So you say to yourself "well fine - ok well I don't want to commit treason against Jesus so ... from now on....??? what??"

would you settle for "I will remember to say 'sorry' each time I trample the Law of the universe in the ground"???
 
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Jeshu

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To be perfect is to be truthfully loving. This is what The Holy Spirit can achieve in us. Deeds of truthful love. Whenever we love God or neighbour truthfully, God is about, that is why loving was seen as so serious in the early Christian Church. This is what the last Church in Revelation 3 is on about. You have lost your first love is a serious charge. For it means that we haven't build our lives in His love but build our lives with other spirituality. Yet only truthfully loving God and neighbour lives Revelation chapters 4-7.

So true perfection is loving true at all times just like Jesus does. This righteousness we carry from Him and through Him living in us, we have His Spirit because we believe in Him, so to attempt to find perfect righteousness within our own strength is folly.

Peace.

1 Corinthians 12:31 - 1 Corinthians 13

Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
 
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Gary O'

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I hope to not be out of line with this...but

What if this COVID thing was wunna the 7 last plagues?

I've thought about this lately

And I like that thought

Being sealed is a good feeling for me
No panic
Just relief

God has done some obvious works in this sinner's life in the last few months
I rest in that
 
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BobRyan

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Interesting idea.

But there are a few problems.

1. The Gospel has not yet gone to all the world -- Christ said it will before the end (see Matt 24:14)
2. Christ is still our High Priest in Heaven (Heb 8:1-4) in the sanctuary in heaven - and that process stops (Rev 15:8) before the Rev 16 plagues are poured out. So if we were in the time of the plagues - nobody would have forgiveness of any sin committed at this time.
3. The mark of the beast in Rev 13 and 14 has not happened. And we know from Rev 14 that it will be set up and that all the world will be warned about it - before the plagues take place.
======================================

First problem:

1. Matt 24 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the entire world... and then shall the end come"... that has not happened yet.

==============================

second problem:
2. Rev 16 is the 7 last plagues... notice what happens in Rev 15.
7 And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives for ever and ever; 8 and the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were ended.

So that means the sanctuary in heaven is shut down for the time that the 7 last plagues are poured out.

Currently the heavenly sanctuary is fully functioning with Christ as our High Priest mediator in heaven

Christ is our mediator in heaven in the heavenly sanctuary - pleading His blood for our sins
Heb 8:1Now the main point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord.

Heb 4:
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

So then Question: what happens when the Rev 15:8 event takes place, sanctuary in heaven shut down?

Answer: Christ ceases His ministry as high priest and mediator in heaven's sanctuary. The "one mediator between Christ and man" 1 Tim 2 -- ends His work is intercessor and so then the wrath of God is poured out in the 7 last plagues.. upon mankind.

Rev 15
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

So during the time of the 7 last plagues the saint stand in the presence of God sealed, and without a Mediator pleading for forgiveness for sins committed in that time... that means no more sinning for the saints during that time ... they are sealed. This has not happened yet.

that has not happened yet.

=======================================

We live in the time where the 4 angels are still withholding the four winds of strife and plague
Rev 7:

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.”

We live in the time of the Rev 14 proclamation of the 3 angels messages to the entire world - the last and final warning to mankind.

========================
But when the sanctuary in heaven does shut down, and the saints already sealed - and Christ ceases to mediate for sins -- What are the first two plagues? Rev 16:2-3

2 So the first angel went and poured his bowl on the earth, and foul and evil sores came upon the men who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

3 The second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a dead man, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

This has not happened yet.
 
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Gary O'

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First problem:

1. Matt 24 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the entire world... and then shall the end come"... that has not happened yet.

Maybe
Maybe not


Maybe
Maybe not

Not trying to argue

It just doesn't play in my mind that way
 
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BobRyan

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Gary O'

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You might enjoy reading this online booklet -- "Story of Redemption" -- it also discusses a lot of that topic.
Thanks, Bob

I certainly don't wish to be contentious, and know little in regard to 'the sealing'

Guess I'm just weary of the battle, dying daily

Again, thanks
 
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Psalm 27

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Philippians 1:6
 
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reddogs

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First problem... I think the world has been connected across the globe and anyone, even in Russia, China, or the nether regions has been reached with the gospel, God in His mercy and grace will get it to the last few.

Second problem.. we are seeing the plagues forming in preparation for the end and the close of probation which will be much quicker than most people think, to say nothing of Adventist waiting on the 'NSL' which is already at the door..

Too many Christians think it will be a long process such as the idea of "7 years of tribulation", but after it hits, most wont be able to stand it for even a short time, I would say days or even months rather than years.
 
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BobRyan

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We have had radio, TV and internet covering the globe with the Gospel for many decades now. IF that was the sign that probation had closed then everyone who has sinned during those decades is lost.

Plagues "forming" is an interesting concept. Not sure what that means to say that plagues are forming - but are not here as the 7 last plague. In any case no sins forgiven once the plagues of Rev 16 begin because Rev 15:8 happens before that.
 
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Soyeong

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The word translated as "perfect" can also be translated as "whole" or "complete". In Matthew 5:43-48, nothing in the passage is speaking about the issue of needing to have perfect sinless obedience, but rather it is speaking about having a love that is whole or complete, where we don't just love those who love us, but also love our enemies. Likewise, the condition of being blameless is not the same as having perfect obedience because there are multiple people in the Bible who are described as blameless even though all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

God's law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so there has never been a need for us to have perfect obedience to it. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Furthermore, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have fallen short of perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we don't need to have perfect obedience, and the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance, not for perfect obedience. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:4-5), so thinking that we need to have perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.
 
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BobRyan

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The problem comes in when you get to 1 John 2:1 and Rev 15:8. There comes a point in the future when the atoning work of Christ in the Sanctuary in heaven ends. The "Atoning sacrifice" was completed at the cross 1 John 2:2. But the work of Christ in the Sanctuary in heaven as our High Priest continues - as He claims His blood for the forgiveness of our sins.

That work ends at a certain point Rev 15:8.
 
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reddogs

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But there were places where it could not reach, for example Cuba. None of those were available to the people of Cuba, the radio was blocked with other broadcasts, I used to listen to the competing signals at night, wondering when the real truth would get to Cuba. And there was no TV signal either that wasnt blocked or too weak, and they had no way to get to the internet. But now, when I went there the last few times, they could get all of them, even though they had to be careful, but it is reaching them, so the Gospel has been openned for them much the same in China and Russia.

We have all the plagues showing themselves in tremendous formation, raging fires, scorching heat, floods, pandemics sweeping the world, sores on men from strange diseases, the seas and waters turning into what looks like the blood of a dead man, and many other signs showing up. So if they were to start to fall on us within a day, it would not be a surprise, and probation could close, that quickly. So need to prepare now, if fact that is what my sermon at church will be on this morning, I only pray the Holy Spirit helps with the words of understanding on this, as time is almost at the end...
 
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Soyeong

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True, but He did say "perfect". I agree about love, but that has to be from the heart.

I made the case that the word he used should not be translated as "perfect", so please interact with that rather than just insisting that he said "perfect".
 
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Psalm 27

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I made the case that the word he used should not be translated as "perfect", so please interact with that rather than just insisting that he said "perfect".
Jesus did say "perfect" though? Thats His words, not mine
 
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Soyeong

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Jesus did say "perfect" though? Thats His words, not mine
The word he used an also mean "whole" or "complete", which would be a better translation considering the context of what he was speaking about, which had nothing to do with the concept of needing to be sinless.
 
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Gary K

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Find some Lewis Walton sermons on acm.org. You will love them. At least I do.
 
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