Single life and ministry

[Xingyi Warrior]

Just one small point. Be careful in the demand for data where questions of rightness and faith are involved. It might not be inappropriate here, but matters of faith can and do defy empirical data gathering. After all, it has to do with what really is rather than what humans observe.
-Bedwyr


I'm not demanding data - simply stating that I know of none that exists to effectively take a focused stand one way or the other.
And you cannot argue faith. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen" you cant quantify it. I am simply using my knowledge of group dynamics and human behavior to make plausible inferences about Christians because they are human. You can argue that your faith dictates that you will sucessfully invest in a stock that has repaetedly and predicatably shown low performance. If your metaphysical mandates employ you to do so then they cannot be agrued as they are immaterial. But statistical evidence supports that you are probably making a poor investment. For my money I'll go with the numbers. And demand for data supporting the existence of God is infantile and futile as this arguement rests in the realm of philosophy, not empirical speculation.

Your faith is your faith and there is no more arguement. But when what you believe about something is overwhelmingly refuted by empirical evidence then you need to reevaluate the way you think. The existence of God is not at issue here as I've already covered that. A classic example would be Sir Isaac Newton finally confronting the Monastic gestapo of his day with the irrefuatable evidence contradicting their belief that the earth was the center of the universe. Science is not the answer to everything but over the years I've observed that the only times the church has made any real progress is when they have accepted and employed empirical wisdom that is applicable to issues concerning them. For example many people are now diagnosed and succesfully treated for depression and scizophrenia when not too long ago we had massive deliverance conventions to "cast out their demons". My point if statistical data were generated that suggest, and it appears that independent sources suggest so, that in the right situations married people are more happier, healthier, and emotionally stable than singles, are we going to change our way of thinking, or will we continue to wander around in the dark an take our chances? In any case it could be promising, but more research must be done.

 

[ZiSunka]

"Paul considered being single a gift, and we all have different gifts, but notice he was speaking "off the cuff" and not by commandment when he wished we were single:

But that's not a gift in the spiritual sense, it means more like, "It's a good thing," not, "some people are given a spiritual gift of never desiring sex or marriage." Even people who are called to singleness still have the desire to have sex and get married, they just give that up for the sake of the Lord. But that concept is alien to us today, too, to give something up for the sake of the Lord. We think that God owes us, and that we don't ever have to sacrifice anything for Him.

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

It is an infraction against God to take what He hasn't given you, yes, just like it's wrong to take the Lexis He hasn't given you, the money He hasn't given you, the children He hasn't given you, in the same way it is wrong to take a spouse selfishly just because you want one, without regard to compatibility, maturity or any other factor that should go into choosing a mate. In that sense, it is covetting.

-Lambslove

God bless you lambslove, but your arguement is implosive. If you sneak into the dealership lot and hotwire the Lexus then you are stealing it. If you clean the cash register out at 7 eleven at gunpoint you are stealing it. In both cases you are taking what has not been given to you. But if you buy the car with your own hard earned money this is not a sin. What is wrong with simply seeking to better your life while obeying God's written commandments outlined in his word. Yesterday I was unfortuanley out of mony and very hungry as I passed a local restaurant. I smelled the food and I desired it however I couldn't buy any so I went home and ate. So was I coveteous and guilty of breaking one of God's commandments at realizing my desire for the restaurant's food and acting to neet my desire to eat? Your reasoning needs more of a foundation.

 

[ZiSunka]

Nothing is wrong with seeking to be married. God knows that's what I want, too! But marrying just anybody for the sake of being married is cheating yourself of God's blessing and setting yourself up for a lifetime of hurt.

And yes, if you were thinking that stealing the food would have been the way to slake your hunger, that would have been covetting. But if you went home and got money and came back to eat, then you were realizing God's provision for your hunger because He gave you money to buy it with. That is the difference I'm speaking of, one is taking the good thing that God gives you, and the other is taking something that God hasn't given you and hasn't provided to you. See the difference?

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

Nothing is wrong with seeking to be married. God knows that's what I want, too! But marrying just anybody for the sake of being married is cheating yourself of God's blessing and setting yourself up for a lifetime of hurt.
-Lambslove

Theres some agreeing going on at his point! It appears that you fall into that "lady in waiting" category. My arguement was based upon my belief that if you are single and dont want to be single anymore then God will make a way out of it for you if you ask him to and show him that you want to fulfill your desires in that area according to HIS plan for doing so. As for the single and happy paradigm, my experience, for what its worth, has been that to most singles I've known being single eventually becomes a stumbling block to them. I've known many who left the church because they were mad because God had not provided a mate for them when they thought he should, or they thought that because of an unsuccessful bout of attempted relationships that God had called them into a lifelong singles ministry and it was just too much. I just sympathize with you and other singles who have inadvertantly bore the brunt of a short circuited culture on a mad dash toward oblivion. And sometimes to such people the church can unknowingly (because of missmanagement of situational needs of its congregation) do more harm than good.

 

[Bedwyr]

I'm not demanding data - simply stating that I know of none that exists to effectively take a focused stand one way or the other.
And you cannot argue faith. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen" you cant quantify it. I am simply using my knowledge of group dynamics and human behavior to make plausible inferences about Christians because they are human. You can argue that your faith dictates that you will sucessfully invest in a stock that has repaetedly and predicatably shown low performance. If your metaphysical mandates employ you to do so then they cannot be agrued as they are immaterial. But statistical evidence supports that you are probably making a poor investment. For my money I'll go with the numbers. And demand for data supporting the existence of God is infantile and futile as this arguement rests in the realm of philosophy, not empirical speculation.

Your faith is your faith and there is no more arguement. But when what you believe about something is overwhelmingly refuted by empirical evidence then you need to reevaluate the way you think. The existence of God is not at issue here as I've already covered that. A classic example would be Sir Isaac Newton finally confronting the Monastic gestapo of his day with the irrefuatable evidence contradicting their belief that the earth was the center of the universe. Science is not the answer to everything but over the years I've observed that the only times the church has made any real progress is when they have accepted and employed empirical wisdom that is applicable to issues concerning them. For example many people are now diagnosed and succesfully treated for depression and scizophrenia when not too long ago we had massive deliverance conventions to "cast out their demons". My point if statistical data were generated that suggest, and it appears that independent sources suggest so, that in the right situations married people are more happier, healthier, and emotionally stable than singles, are we going to change our way of thinking, or will we continue to wander around in the dark an take our chances? In any case it could be promising, but more research must be done.

It's still a demand (or desire) for data.

Your stock analogy is apt; it makes my point quite well. All the best economists at any one time are bringing their abilities to bear on the stock market. Even the best and brightest fund managers have mixed performance numbers. The only ones I can think of that are at all successful are index funds, spdr's, and conservative, slow growing funds like Berkshire Hathaway. In fact, single long term stock prediction is about as reliable as climatalogical --or seasonal-- forecasting (ranges from 40-50% accuracy vs meteorological forecasting which is 60-80% accurate within 3 days).

The bottom line: nobody really knows anything. Human beings are incapable of anything other than observation and even that gets dicey because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. This is exactly why I council a jaundiced eye towards data. Even huge amounts of it can be wrong.

Likewise faith can be equally wrong (as you said). All the Christians on this board could be so self-deceived that they would be completely surprised to find nothing but annhiliation beyond the void of death. Again, the bottom line: nobody really *knows* anything. That's what makes belief and personal decision so powerful.

Here's the linchpin to that: "You can't know... You can only believe-or not." - (Ramandu's daughter, Voyage of the Dawn Treader by CS Lewis)

I consider the single-ness vs marriage question to be an issue of faith and scripture. Statistics, though useful when taken with a large grain of salt, are irrelevent here. The happiness of people in marriage as surveyed hardly proves God's work in the world for me. What satisfies me is the gift of Eve to Adam in Genesis. God's words there are plenty to prove its efficacy. Single-ness? Again, go back to Paul as inspired writer of God's truth. Plenty of proof for me that it is quite valuable.

Faith is bad for debate and argument? You bet it is.

And now that the thread has completely degenerated, I think it's time for me to leave it alone.

Have fun,
Bedwyr

 

[ZiSunka]

Nothing is wrong with seeking to be married. God knows that's what I want, too! But marrying just anybody for the sake of being married is cheating yourself of God's blessing and setting yourself up for a lifetime of hurt.
-Lambslove

Theres some agreeing going on at his point! It appears that you fall into that "lady in waiting" category. My arguement was based upon my belief that if you are single and dont want to be single anymore then God will make a way out of it for you if you ask him to and show him that you want to fulfill your desires in that area according to HIS plan for doing so. As for the single and happy paradigm, my experience, for what its worth, has been that to most singles I've known being single eventually becomes a stumbling block to them. I've known many who left the church because they were mad because God had not provided a mate for them when they thought he should, or they thought that because of an unsuccessful bout of attempted relationships that God had called them into a lifelong singles ministry and it was just too much. I just sympathize with you and other singles who have inadvertantly bore the brunt of a short circuited culture on a mad dash toward oblivion. And sometimes to such people the church can unknowingly (because of missmanagement of situational needs of its congregation) do more harm than good.

I agree that God will make a way out of singleness for you if it is his best plan for you to be married, and if you are willing to be in his plan. A man plans his way, as the proverb says, but the Lord directs his steps. Another verse says, "Find your meaning and satisfaction in the Lord and he will give you the things your heart desires." To have a good marriage, you have to desire the Lord's will in your life. And sometimes it is God's best will for a person to stay single, for a time or forever. It is not the Lord's BEST will for everyone to be married, and it is when you demand your own way that unhappiness results. Nothing good ever comes from rebelling from the Lord. The Lord can make it good, but only if you submit to Him.

The church isn't the only one who pressures singles to hook up with someone, no matter who. Have you seen the show Paradise Hotel? or The Bachelor? Or met my sister and my aunts? Nothing Christian about them, but they are still all about hooking people up to "cure" their singleness.

Singleness isn't really a stumbling block to me. I'd rather be married, but I have accepted that I may always be single and it's really a joyous place to be. I've been proposed to 6 times and could have married anyone of them (well, I did marry one, when I was desparate to stop being single), but in my heart of hearts I wanted the Lord's best blessing and He always said, "Not this one." Crushing sometimes, but I wanted a good life, not just a married life.

We're not really too far off from each other XW. Marriage is a goooood thing, with the right person. Marriage is a baaaad thing, with the wrong person, or if you aren't ready for it. It's better to wait than to act out of desparation.

 

[Glenn316]

I heard it once said thet singleness is "A terrible, Horrible, Blessing."
I didn't get married till I was 37, and looking back I can relate to that statement. It was a great time, because I was free to serve when and where I wanted. I could go to a singles conference and not having to call the wife, or worry about child care, or house payments, or her safety. I think singles can and should be more available to do God's work. Not just be single for a season, but be single for a reason, to serve Christ and His church. It's unfortunate that people everywhere are so caught up in the get, get get, me, me, me attitude, singles included. I'm glad that the church I attend allows singles to serve in many capacities. I probably learned more than the students in the college and adult Sunday school classes I taught. I was able to find out that God was even able to help a single man be a deacon in my church and minister to the needs of families, and do hospital visits.

 

[Donny_B]

Where in the world did this idea of there being a "gift" of singleness come from? There is no such spiritual gift

I was paraphrasing Paul from a section of I Corinthians 7. He wishes all men were single as himself, but realizes every man has his "proper gift of God" and not all are able to remain single.

6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I Cor 7:6-7

Yet Paul asked the rhetorical question, don't we have the same right to bring along a believing wife as the other apostles do (I Cor 9:5)? The answer of course is yes, Paul had that right.

"..Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ (I Cor 9:12)."

Further down in the chapter, he continues...

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I Corinthians 9:20-22 NKJV

By extension and continuation of the thought, perhaps he remains single so that he can be as those who are single, and save some, even while the other apostles are married. He is like one of us. And as one of us, he encourages us.