single/double predestination?

[seekingpurity047]

Hi everyone! The only reason why I ask this question is because it has be totally blitzed. I want to understand more about this doctrine which, so far, I find has the most biblical proof, therefore, I believe it.

My question is simple, and please, make the answer simple, like in plain english so that I may understand. What is single predestination? What is double predestination? It's a silly question, I know, as I am a calvinist myself. Oh, and feel free to use bible verses to go along with it, as that would be much appreciated it.

Randy

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi everyone! The only reason why I ask this question is because it has be totally blitzed. I want to understand more about this doctrine which, so far, I find has the most biblical proof, therefore, I believe it.

My question is simple, and please, make the answer simple, like in plain english so that I may understand. What is single predestination? What is double predestination? It's a silly question, I know, as I am a calvinist myself. Oh, and feel free to use bible verses to go along with it, as that would be much appreciated it.

Randy

hi Randy

a point to clarify :


Why did God choose Jacob ?

because He loved Him Sovereignly ........ mercy is always Sovereign.(Justice never can be)


Why did God NOT choose Ishmael Esau Pharoah and Judas ?

Because He didn't want to , this had nothing to do with their sin otherwise no-one would be elect!


Finally , why did God condemn Pharoah Ishmael Esau and Judas ?

Because of the sin of ONE man : Adam.

Reprobates cannot be elect ,
they cannot escape being condemned by birth ,
but they can choose to add to their condemnation by wicked deeds ,
and they are commanded to Repent , and place faith in Christ , IF they will , they will be saved.

yes , and just how does God "prepare a vessel for destruction" ?

By being kind , loving , patient , gracious and granting such a revelation that were it not for the wretchedness of the fallen human condition , would easily be enough to spare them.

as Van Til has said , God didn't just make men to damn them , there is a whole history to consider .

I think single predestination is impossible .......... It is proposed by some that God simply chooses and knows the names of all who will be saved , and the rest he just passes them over as a mass ....... with no definate aim in mind !

Like God would create a person without knowing the full history and destination of that person ?

Also , although there is not equal ultimacy in how God works , He doesn't put forward a positive effectual sin enticing power in the creature , even though He puts forward a positive influence in and upon the Elect.

YET , the Bible does view God as the one potter over two very different clay pots ....... so the idea that God is simply passive in the decree of reprobation is false.

Now how God is active is a wonder to behold ........ not by doing evil to men , but by doing them good , by multiple acts of common grace , which does include the sincere offer of the Gospel , they would be saved IF they would cease from their warfare , and humbly submit to God's Son.

So I conclude that mere permission of reprobation , ie, preterition , is false.
And that through God's goodness men turn it to their hurt!
Did God mean this to happen .... ?
Yes and no ..... God's will is varied.
If God predestines the means to the Elect obtaining salvation , then God can and does predestine the valid ground of condemnation ... which is based upon several revelations ........ the Greatest being The Messiah ..


this is about as good a page as any you will find on the decree of God and Reprobation.Note the Westminser Confession (along with others) states double predestination !

The Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter 3, Articles 1 & 7.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. ...

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.


http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Art...destination.htm

 

[seekingpurity047]

Thanks friend. I greatly appreciate the clearing up.

Randy

 

[tony1976]

Hi Cygnusx1,

Your reply to Randy's question was very confused and confusing!

Not to mention any other points you make, you quote from The Westminster Confession 3:1, 7 in support of double predestination and against preterition (i.e. God's simply passing over the non-elect and leaving them in their sins), but 3:7, which you quote, actually puts forward the preterition view!

Read it carefully, noting the words 'to pass by'.

The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Note also that it states that God ordains 'them to dishonor and wrath for their sin'. This is not sovereign reprobation / double predestination, but PRETERITION!

Fact is, the first Prolocutor (Chairman) of the Westminster Assembly, William Twisse, did hold to double predestination / sovereign reprobation, but he was somewhat out of step with most of the other members and died within a few months of the Assembly being convened.

Most, so called Calvinists, have (erroneously, in my view) held to the preterition view: for example, C Hodge - Systematic Theology Part III, Chap 1, section 2; L Berkhof, 'Systematic Theology', p 116; R L Dabney, 'Systematic Theology', Lecture 22, section 3. L Boettner, 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination', p104-5; B B Warfield, article 'Predestination' in 'Bible Doctrines', p64; J Zanchius, 'The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination', chap 4, sect 1. ....... One could go on!

For a more Scriptural view see H Hoeksema, 'Reformed Dogmatics', p 160-161 and his tract (available online) 'The Place of Reprobation in the Preaching of the Gospel'. See also R Hanko's 'Doctrine According to Godliness', p69-71.

Tony

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi Cygnusx1,

Your reply to Randy's question was very confused and confusing!

Not to mention any other points you make, you quote from The Westminster Confession 3:1, 7 in support of double predestination and against preterition (i.e. God's simply passing over the non-elect and leaving them in their sins), but 3:7, which you quote, actually puts forward the preterition view!

Read it carefully, noting the words 'to pass by'.

The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Note also that it states that God ordains 'them to dishonor and wrath for their sin'. This is not sovereign reprobation / double predestination, but PRETERITION!

Fact is, the first Prolocutor (Chairman) of the Westminster Assembly, William Twisse, did hold to double predestination / sovereign reprobation, but he was somewhat out of step with most of the other members and died within a few months of the Assembly being convened.

Most, so called Calvinists, have (erroneously, in my view) held to the preterition view: for example, C Hodge - Systematic Theology Part III, Chap 1, section 2; L Berkhof, 'Systematic Theology', p 116; R L Dabney, 'Systematic Theology', Lecture 22, section 3. L Boettner, 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination', p104-5; B B Warfield, article 'Predestination' in 'Bible Doctrines', p64; J Zanchius, 'The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination', chap 4, sect 1. ....... One could go on!

For a more Scriptural view see H Hoeksema, 'Reformed Dogmatics', p 160-161 and his tract (available online) 'The Place of Reprobation in the Preaching of the Gospel'. See also R Hanko's 'Doctrine According to Godliness', p69-71.

Tony

hi Tony ......... there is a thread at Semper that some of us have been debating over this complex issue , perhaps you could have a look ..http://www.christianforums.com/t2053711-single-or-double-predestination.html

My view is that God does pass men over , but not as an end in itself .

Passing men over seems Biblical in the decree of Election , men are not rejected for their sin.

However , as the Westminster Confession states "and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice." ....... which does imply much more than passing over .......... it is positive , and it is meaningful , and it is planned.

 

[rnmomof7]

I am believer in double predestination .

Thats because God is sovereign over all things.

To say he simply "passes over" a man removes Gods sovereignty in reprobation.

Much of this has to do with how one sees the order of degrees another Calvinist hot button

 

[akolouthein]

Hi Cygnusx1,

Your reply to Randy's question was very confused and confusing!

Not to mention any other points you make, you quote from The Westminster Confession 3:1, 7 in support of double predestination and against preterition (i.e. God's simply passing over the non-elect and leaving them in their sins), but 3:7, which you quote, actually puts forward the preterition view!

Read it carefully, noting the words 'to pass by'.

The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Note also that it states that God ordains 'them to dishonor and wrath for their sin'. This is not sovereign reprobation / double predestination, but PRETERITION!

Fact is, the first Prolocutor (Chairman) of the Westminster Assembly, William Twisse, did hold to double predestination / sovereign reprobation, but he was somewhat out of step with most of the other members and died within a few months of the Assembly being convened.

Most, so called Calvinists, have (erroneously, in my view) held to the preterition view: for example, C Hodge - Systematic Theology Part III, Chap 1, section 2; L Berkhof, 'Systematic Theology', p 116; R L Dabney, 'Systematic Theology', Lecture 22, section 3. L Boettner, 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination', p104-5; B B Warfield, article 'Predestination' in 'Bible Doctrines', p64; J Zanchius, 'The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination', chap 4, sect 1. ....... One could go on!

For a more Scriptural view see H Hoeksema, 'Reformed Dogmatics', p 160-161 and his tract (available online) 'The Place of Reprobation in the Preaching of the Gospel'. See also R Hanko's 'Doctrine According to Godliness', p69-71.

Tony

I'm just now studying Calvin and double predestination and maybe something just sticks out to me personally but I understood what Cygnus said very well.
These forums are really opening my eyes to alot of things I've been searching for.