Singing in tongues en masse

[stormdancer0]

I believe there exists within Pentecostal and Charismatic circles a conscious effort to give less value and attention to theology and more value and attention to what has been labelled revelation knowledge. Especially today, what is getting the most notice by the congregants is not theological training. Instead, whatever form the declared present move of God or movement has taken -- that is where the focus is.

Movements are being bred in a fairly predictable pattern. Once falling down in the spirit lost its newness, then laughing and barking came along, and now the newest movement, "impartation," with its most overused word, "glory," has taken over.

The presentation of a systematic study of the first principles of God is not on the agenda -- has it ever been? -- but rather a repetitious expression of the points held within the present movement.

The reason for this, I suppose, is due to a desire to live more in the preceeding word of God. Although this is indeed a good desire, it is taking place in the absence of providing believers with a well balanced and researched foundation. Keeping members stirred is the goal today, not getting them studied and deeply rooted in all that the Word contains.

This is always a threat in a Pentecostal setting. But I didn't say I did not agree with a systematic study of the principles of God, merely that I do my own studies, and do not rely on others to spoon feed me. I read others, for reference, but I generally let the Bible speak for itself.

And usually it does.

 

[Nikos7]

I wonder why God has put in the Church some teachers and some Pastors. Are they not there to teach? I think so. It is not being spoon-fed to have someone teach you. It is biblical and God has provided these teachers for our benefit.

 

[Biblicist]

Sorry, Biblicist. I meant systematic theology, i.e. other men's opinions of what they think the Bible is saying. To study the Bible, I prefer to get my knowledge first hand - from the Bible.

I did quickly see your reply a few days ago but I have had a few busy days so I am a bit behind with some posts. I do feel like a bit of a grinch as you were merely caught up in some friendly fire between Bob and me; I think that Bob sees me coming from a mile off and he knows how to push my buttons.
As for Systematic Theology...wait for it...this is definitely the Jewel in the arsenal of the Biblical exegete; in my view, even though it is probably the hardest approach when it comes to the study of the Scriptures it definitely in the long run produces the best outcome. I must admit that there can be a bit of hair pulling and gnashing of teeth when some (well many) texts seem to throw up a few hurdles along the way.

One of the benefits that a systematic approach to Biblical study provides is that it tends to contain a number of self-checks in that it compels one to be consistent with the treatment of the Word; at least as far as our frail humanity permits us to be even handed. I’ve had to wait years before some clarity or an answer to a difficult passage has arrived and this is often as a result of lot of hard work by numerous Evangelical and Full Gospel scholars and commentators.

One problem that we all encounter is that most of us tend to read the Word in say English where the NT was written in Greek and some books may have even been originally written in Latin (?) and then into Greek so we have to rely on the work of not only linguistics but also with the work of those who are involved in socio-rhetorical studies.

 

[Biblicist]

"how can we let the study of God get in the way of hearing from God through His Word?"

Look around at the state of the "Visible church" in 2012, and see how easy it was for THEM to do that.

Heck, at least from within the context of the Australian Full Gospel churches and particularly with the AOG (which is now called the Australian Christian Churches here in Australia), I think that I could almost be somewhat content with even some questionable theology as in most part what I hear from supposedly enlightened and Spirit led people is simply drivel and pandering to new age philosophies.

The day when the Church in Australia (and maybe with North America) returns to the Word of God by taking it seriously, then we might be able to see a church full of the power of the Spirit instead of the weak creature that we often see around us.

 

[Biblicist]

There is nothing wrong with up to date theology. In fact it is far better than some of the old stuff. It is important however, to be careful who you are reading and studying. However, everything we read and study must be in harmony with the Word of God for it is the final authority.

One of the attractions of contemporary theology is that it is certainly moving at a very fast pace and academics from all persuasions, be they exegetical scholars, linguists, historians or with those who are involved in socio-rhetorical studies, they all are reviewing the work of their peers and incorporating the best research in their own writings – I shouldn’t leave out the theologian from this mix.

When we are able to spend a number of years reading material that is produced by these individuals you tend to gain a pretty good appreciation of their strengths and weaknesses. This allows us to apply a bit of caution when we are reading some material such as with Gordon Fee who is a brilliant exegetical scholar but by his own admission he does not consider himself to be a Theologian and this can be rather apparent at times; even when I think he is off the mark on occasion, he still gives some great arguments for the opposing view which allows me to think to consider the other side so to speak.

One of the big changes over the past couple of decades has been with the huge influx of academics from outside of the Full Gospel movement who deem themselves to be open-but-cautious. Academics who fall into this increasingly broad category are providing some amazing insights into the Pneumatic nature of the Word and this men who often do not speak in tongues have themselves removed cessationism from its once lofty perch.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

In the U.S. in the times PREVIOUS to the Charismatic outpouring, The AoG WAS an very Legalistic, racially segregated, clothesline holiness, highly judgmental group of folks that had any number of unscriptural hang-ups and practices.

And BECAUSE of the general REJECTION of Pentecostalism by the "orthodox churches" as a whole, we tended to have a "Foxhole" mentality - fiercely DEFENSIVE of "our turf", and a certain "Scorn" for those in the church that DIDN'T agree with our "take on the world".

Most folks in AoG churches these days, HAVE NO CONCEPT of how legalistically restrictive we were, back in the day.

BUT -

There was a "Significance" that the people in the AoG in those days were ACCEPTING of those "limitations/HARD requirements/clothesline holiness practices - BECAUSE we thought that God required them of us as "proper Christians". And there was also a greater "Overt Presence" in our churches of the Holy Spirit and the Giftings.

The effect of the Charismatic outpouring in the U.S. was a general "UN-denominationalizing" of the people who were involved in it. Thats to say that the Denominational Label suddenly became VERY unimportant, along with the "Precious Denominational doctrines" that divided us into warring factions, and for a brief period in the '70s, we weren't "Baptists", or "Catholics", or "Assembly of God" - we were just "Christians" celebrating our Lord in an unusually personal way. And we dropped the weapons, and just shared with each other - briefly.

And then it ended, The Overt Presence of the Holy Spirit started to withdraw, and we had a "new problem". In my case I was too "Fundy" to be a "liberal", and WAY too "liberal" to be a good "Fundy". AT the same time MANY Charismatics flowed into the "Pentecostal" denominatons - with the effect that the "Hard-Line Holiness" orientation got SERIOUSLY adulterated. I "Dropped out" (Got busy as the U.S. Cheif Electrical Engineer for a multi-national press builder) for about 8-9 years, and when I re-integrated with the AoG, it wasn't ANYTHING like the same denomination that it HAD been - before.

I don't know that the SIGNIFICANT acts of the Holy Spirit are any less (Healings, Salvations, etc.) than thye've ever been, but the "Party aspects" are certainly MUCH more subdued. THIS morning in service there was "Tongues" and "Interpretation". That's the FIRST time that such a thing has happened in the last 2 years.

MY SUSPICION IS that God is leading in a DIFFERENT way in 2012, and "Denominational Doctrines", if we're wise (but we probably aren't) should begin to change. My gut feel is that the "16" of the AoG will be "Adjusted", and the doctrine of "Initial Evidence" (for one) will probably read differently - maybe as early as next year.

 

[stormdancer0]

I wonder why God has put in the Church some teachers and some Pastors. Are they not there to teach? I think so. It is not being spoon-fed to have someone teach you. It is biblical and God has provided these teachers for our benefit.

I am a pastor. And I have no problem with teachers and pastors. But so-called "theologians" sometimes are trying to discredit the Bible, or explain away parts they don't like as outdated.

I would just rather study the Bible (yes, systematically) and glean what God would have me know, rather than depend on someone else's understanding.

 

[tturt]

just a side note - "...clothesline holiness..." that's funny!

posted by Bob: "THIS morning in service there was "Tongues" and "Interpretation". That's the FIRST time that such a thing has happened in the last 2 years."

This has been our experience also but I think it's been longer than 2 years. I had wondered about other churches' experience.

 

[Biblicist]

I am a pastor. And I have no problem with teachers and pastors. But so-called "theologians" sometimes are trying to discredit the Bible, or explain away parts they don't like as outdated...

I guess that my perspective is somewhat different in that what I tend to see more and more is pastors presenting a watered down esoteric word – one which is essentially devoid of power; as for teachers being on the scene, I must admit that I rarely encounter anyone on our church platforms who I would deem to be a teacher, which admittedly could simply be an Australian thing.

I wish that our Theologians could let the rank-and-file church members know that there is a Book which they could read that tells them upon God’s dealing with mankind but I suspect that there may not be too many pastors who would want their people to know that there are believers who passionately love the Word and who would love to be able to share God’s Word with them and to even show them how to study for themselves – I know, I’m probably just being a killjoy as this strange idea is hardly seeker sensitive.

 

[stormdancer0]

I guess that my perspective is somewhat different in that what I tend to see more and more is pastors presenting a watered down esoteric word – one which is essentially devoid of power; as for teachers being on the scene, I must admit that I rarely encounter anyone on our church platforms who I would deem to be a teacher, which admittedly could simply be an Australian thing.

I wish that our Theologians could let the rank-and-file church members know that there is a Book which they could read that tells them upon God’s dealing with mankind but I suspect that there may not be too many pastors who would want their people to know that there are believers who passionately love the Word and who would love to be able to share God’s Word with them and to even show them how to study for themselves – I know, I’m probably just being a killjoy as this strange idea is hardly seeker sensitive.

Actually, when I do get to preach (I'm an associate pastor) I am usually irritating someone. My friend calls it "Kicking her in the butt." God just doesn't give me "feel-good" sermons. I am more of a teacher than a preacher, but both me and my head pastor are constantly telling people to look it up for themselves. Read the Bible, don't just accept regurgitated scripture from us. They don't let other people chew their food for them. Why would they let others dictate their beliefs?

Maybe that's why our church is usually pretty small. We don't spoon-feed much. The cookies are put on a lower shelf, so that all can reach it. But you still have to chew it yourself.

 

[Biblicist]

Actually, when I do get to preach (I'm an associate pastor) I am usually irritating someone. My friend calls it "Kicking her in the butt." God just doesn't give me "feel-good" sermons. I am more of a teacher than a preacher, ...

That sounds great!

In many churches I suspect that anyone who has a teaching inclination that they are treated much the same way as the taxman.

 

[hopeinGod]

My Christian walk has led me into "membership" with numerous Charismatic and Pentecostal groups, those with denomination names (such as AoG) and those without, and in every situation there was a lack of systematic teaching.

It wasn't until a group of young men, headed by an older brother in the Lord, came to town and set up a year long study on the first principles listed in Hebrews 6 that I finally learned how to study the Scriptures and gained a strong foundation in the Word. Most Christians that I've met through the years think it easy to skip past those six doctrines: repentance from dead works, faith toward God, the laying on of hands, the doctrine of baptisms, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment, when in reality each one of them contains a wealth of information and knowledge.

Those foundational principles are what should be laid in the lives of believers, but instead, they are today giving themselves to whatever the prevailing movement asserts as present truth.

Sure, there are present revelational truths to heed, but not at the expense of laying a foundation in the lives of believers. I've met men and women who for decades have been saved and yet they contend for errors that for many years they were avalanched by. It's sad, really.

 

[Nikos7]

Yes it is important to study the Word of God. However the teachers of the Word must themselves be pure and honest in their studies. Pentecostal theology is a fantastic study and will open up the paths to a powerful experience. However, one must gaurd against false doctrine, especially of those who wrongly teach Once Saved Always Saved and Calvinism. These doctrines are the devisings of man and cannot be found in the Bible.
It is wrong to judge the pentecostal movement of having no theology. This is a lie perpetrated by those who are trying to infiltrate the movement with their false doctrines.

 

[Nikos7]

Actually, when I do get to preach (I'm an associate pastor) I am usually irritating someone. My friend calls it "Kicking her in the butt." God just doesn't give me "feel-good" sermons. I am more of a teacher than a preacher, but both me and my head pastor are constantly telling people to look it up for themselves. Read the Bible, don't just accept regurgitated scripture from us. They don't let other people chew their food for them. Why would they let others dictate their beliefs?

Maybe that's why our church is usually pretty small. We don't spoon-feed much. The cookies are put on a lower shelf, so that all can reach it. But you still have to chew it yourself.

If you want people to study for themselves, then what is the purpose of your preaching and teaching ministry. To put young christians out there to learn for themselves when God has gifted you to guide them and teach them the truth of God's Word is not biblical. Of course they are to study the Word and dig in to the depths, but they need a Spirit-filled teacher to help them and lead them. Don't cancel out your own purpose for being. God has you in the position of Pastor/Teacher for a reason. The reason is obvious.