Sincere question for Mormons

Apex · Dec 28, 2005

unbound said:
Why would the blessings stop? The Mormon God should have infinite spirit babies.

So your telling God what to do?

And again, how do you corollate this beliefe to the mainstream view of God?

unbound · Dec 28, 2005

Apex said:
So your telling God what to do?

And again, how do you corollate this beliefe to the mainstream view of God?

Im not, and I dont.

Its your Mormon God who has these attributes. Defend him. Good luck.

Apex · Dec 28, 2005

unbound said:
Im not, and I dont.

Its your Mormon God who has these attributes. Defend him. Good luck.

Defend agaisnt what...? You are making now sense at all.

Guyver · Dec 28, 2005

buddy mack said:
Not sayin it is you ASHzer, but these kind of questions are asked by someone who already knows the answers. So as an eggspert i will try and answer your questions

1, the first god name was Leroy Johnson.
2, i can understand the question.
3, our god worship Leroy Johnson
4, answer to this question keeps changing so stay tune tomorrow
5, was there a fifth question?

Are you THE Leroy Johnson that is on alot of online games.

unbound · Dec 28, 2005

Apex said:
Defend agaisnt what...? You are making now sense at all.

What are you talking about? Are you telling me that marriage for eternity does not mean procreating through eternity? I thought that the more spirits are created the more glory your God gets?

Apex · Dec 28, 2005

unbound said:
What are you talking about? Are you telling me that marriage for eternity does not mean procreating through eternity? I thought that the more spirits are created the more glory your God gets?

You already addmited this argument is just as valid against the orthodox view of God. So explain it first. This is one of the most pointless criticisms Ive ever heard...

unbound · Dec 28, 2005

Apex said:
You already addmited this argument is just as valid against the orthodox view of God. So explain it first. This is one of the most pointless criticisms Ive ever heard...

Youve lost me. The orthodox God does not procreate.

OnTheWay · Dec 29, 2005

Apex said:
You already addmited this argument is just as valid against the orthodox view of God. So explain it first. This is one of the most pointless criticisms Ive ever heard...

In the Mormoverse the Mormon god created us all before the existence of earth by having sex with his spirit wife (or wives as the case may be). Therefore, the question being posed is why did the Mormon god stop having spirit children with his wives?
The Living God created all that is, and we did not exist before creation. We were called out of nothing, out of non-existence. Therefore this is not an issue when speaking of the Living God.

Swart · Dec 29, 2005

OnTheWay said:
In the Mormoverse

Hmm, Mormoverse. Has a nice ring to it!

OnTheWay said:
...the Mormon god created us all before the existence of earth by having sex with his spirit wife...

You do (of course) have a reference for this, do you not?

OnTheWay · Dec 29, 2005

Swart said:
You do (of course) have a reference for this, do you not?

"To the Prophet Joseph Smith it was revealed that we are all literal spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents. He received a revelation of information once made known to Moses: "I [God] made the world, and men before they were in the flesh" (Moses 6:51)."

"In a Council in Heaven to preview earth life, the Lord called before him his spirit children and presented the Plan of Salvation by which they would come to this earth, partake of mortal life with physical bodies, pass through a probation in mortality, and progress to a higher exaltation. The matter was discussed as to how, and upon what principle, the salvation, exaltation, and eternal glory of God´s sons and daughters would be brought about (cf. DS 1:58).
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=149

May I ask why it is that all mormon apologists on this board deny something is mormon doctrine until dozens and dozens of sources mount up and only then attempt a half baked defense of the doctrine?
It rather seems that if you are a Mormon, as your religious icon states, you would know what is a basic part of the so called "plan of salvation."

For example, Mormons continue to deny that the Mormon version of Jesus is not the Jesus of Christianity and Scripture.

"The offer of the firstborn Son to establish through His own ministry among men the gospel of salvation, and to sacrifice himself, through labor, humiliation and suffering even unto death, was accepted and made the foreordained plan of man´s redemption from death, of his eventual salvation from the effects of sin, and of his possible exaltation through righteous achievement"
Elder James E. Talmage wrote (JC, p. 18)

Jesus as clearly described in Scripture is the ONLY begotten son of the Father. The mormon Jesus is merely "the first born." These differences cannot be explained away or reconciled.

Swart · Dec 29, 2005

Where do any of the reference's you gave state the following:

by having sex with his spirit wife

Click to expand...

OnTheWay said:
Jesus as clearly described in Scripture is the ONLY begotten son of the Father. The mormon Jesus is merely "the first born." These differences cannot be explained away or reconciled.

Quite easily, actually.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten son in the flesh.

Jesus is not only son. He is the only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear on that.

The rest of us are (literally) his Spiritual sons and daughters.

You can only be "begotten" physically. You can't be "begotten" spiritually.

Quite simple, really.

Tenebrae · Dec 29, 2005

Apex said:
Yes its true, to an extent. This is something our critics like to over simplify and twist to make it sound wrong. And the other sons, and daghters, are us.

I have some questions

Big one being, the mormons dont see the Godhead as the same as christians, ie you believe that God the father son and holy spirit are three seperate people.

Could you tell me then why that is a belief that is contradicted by the book of mormon
mosiah 15 1-5

Alma · Dec 29, 2005

wizeone said:
I have some questions

Big one being, the Mormons don't see the Godhead as the same as christians, i.e., you believe that God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate people.

Could you tell me then why that is a belief that is contradicted by the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 15:1-5?

I think you have misunderstood Mosiah 15:1-5. This passage doesn't mention the Holy Spirit, and it deals almost exclusively with Jesus Christ and how He is both the Father and the Son. This is a clarification of LDS theology rather than a reiteration of Trinitarian philosophy. If you were to read the Book of Mormon in context, you would find that it teaches that Jesus Christ becomes the Father of those who believe in Him. It does not teach that He is the Father of our Spirits. Earlier in the book of Mosiah, this explanation occurs: "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

So, if you'll look at verse three of Mosiah 15, you'll see that Jesus becomes the Father as a result of His conception. This same concept is taught in the New Testament: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ..." (Ephesians1:5) Notice that believers are adopted as children by Christ to Christ. We become born of Him and become His sons and his daughters.

Mosiah 15 doesn't contradict LDS theology, it merely conflicts with your mistaken perception of LDS theology.

Alma

OnTheWay · Dec 29, 2005

Swart said:
Where do any of the reference's you gave state the following:

"To the Prophet Joseph Smith it was revealed that we are all literal spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents. He received a revelation of information once made known to Moses: "I [God] made the world, and men before they were in the flesh" (Moses 6:51)."
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=149

Let's think here. We are the "literal" spirit sons and daughters of "heavenly parents." The Mormon church clearly teaches "spiritual procreation." To deny it is simply to lie.

Quite easily, actually.
Jesus is the ONLY begotten son in the flesh.
Jesus is not only son. He is the only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear on that.
The rest of us are (literally) his Spiritual sons and daughters.
You can only be "begotten" physically. You can't be "begotten" spiritually.
Quite simple, really.

This is the type of "theology" you get when an ignorate farmer is interperting Scripture for you. Jesus Christ was begotten before all alges and was the only begotten. The choice of that word is not for its literal meaning, but it is easy to see how a foolish farm boy could come to believe that. In reality the word was selected because in less than perfect human language it is the only thing that reflects Christ was not a created being.
Jesus was the only begotten, and every created being did not exist before creation. The council of gods creation non-sense is something you'll find in pagan religions, not Christianity.

Tenebrae · Dec 29, 2005

Alma said:
I think you have misunderstood Mosiah 15:1-5. This passage doesn't mention the Holy Spirit, and it deals almost exclusively with Jesus Christ and how He is both the Father and the Son. This is a clarification of LDS theology rather than a reiteration of Trinitarian philosophy. If you were to read the Book of Mormon in context, you would find that it teaches that Jesus Christ becomes the Father of those who believe in Him. It does not teach that He is the Father of our Spirits. Earlier in the book of Mosiah, this explanation occurs: "And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

So, if you'll look at verse three of Mosiah 15, you'll see that Jesus becomes the Father as a result of His conception. This same concept is taught in the New Testament: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ..." (Ephesians1:5) Notice that believers are adopted as children by Christ to Christ. We become born of Him and become His sons and his daughters.

Mosiah 15 doesn't contradict LDS theology, it merely conflicts with your mistaken perception of LDS theology.

Alma

Guess we will have to beg to differ then. Because not only does the BoM contraadcit your belief system but I loose count of the amount of places where the bible contradicts your belief system... Though I guess the contradictory parts havent been translated correctly

Okay, the mormon view of the trinity, is that Jesus, the father and the holy spirit are three seperate people, correct? And not three in one, like Jesus is God, the holy spirit is God.

MOsiah 15 verse one, states

understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

Now if Jesus and God are two seperate people, then why does the book of mormon not say "Jesus himself" as opposed to God himself.

And there is also the last sentence in the statement of the three witnesses which says

. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

'emphasis added' quotes come direct from the book of mormon

The mormons talk about how the bible is incomplete which is why you have been given the book of mormon, pearl of great price and doctrines and convenants... But in mormon chapter 9 verse 9-10 it states

9&nbsp9 For do we not read that God is the same byesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no cvariableness neither shadow of changing?

document.write(drawVerse(10,137403));

10&nbsp10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

So if God is not a God who changes then why would he have any further need to give out new concepts to his people. It seems that the Mormon God backs does change his mind... Blacks were cursed, but are now okay to be in the priesthood, polygamy was okay, now its not.

The quotes I have used are direct from the book of mormon, and they are pretty clear that they contradict mormon beliefs about the trinity, (I am unsure how its possible to misread them)...

Now what the bible has to say about the doctrine of eternal progression

20&nbsp20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 132 Verse 20

But in Isaiah 43:10 God says

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

It kind of wipes out this idea that mormon males can achieve Godhood

buddy mack · Dec 29, 2005

Swart said:
Where do any of the reference's you gave state the following:

Quite easily, actually.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten son in the flesh.

Jesus is not only son. He is the only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear on that.

The rest of us are (literally) his Spiritual sons and daughters.

You can only be "begotten" physically. You can't be "begotten" spiritually.

Quite simple, really.

who said you can't be 'begotten' in the spiritual sense?
and if you can't begotten in the spiritual sense, how does one become a spirit child?

Swart · Dec 29, 2005

Rather than respond directly, I will simply use "reversal of the invective" on your post to demonstrate that it works just as well in reverse:

OnTheWay said:
"To the [early Christians] it was revealed that [Jesus is the] literal ... son ... of [H]eavenly [Father].

Let's think here. [Jesus is] the "literal" ... son "[H]eavenly [Father]." The [Orthodox] church clearly teaches "[Deitic] procreation." To deny it is simply to lie.

Now, as for the rest of your post: ad hominem remarks and insults are a poor substitute for rational discussion. If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest you become secure enough in your own faith so that you don't feel the need to use insulting and denigrating remarks whilst re-interpreting our theology for us.

We don't believe God has "eternal sex" in order to "spiritually procreate". Deal with it. Find something we really believe in and discuss that rather than inventing these straw man arguments. All it does is expose how shallow your argumentation is.

This is the pattern I see from some of our critics: Lot's of cut-and-paste from anti-mormon websites, but no real substance to discuss. When challenged that this is not what we believe, the critic becomes strident and rigid and seeks to "prove" what we believe so their strawman won't be demolished. When that doesn't succeed, we see the critic resorting to ad hominem abuse. This is usually punctuated with poor grammar and basic spelling mistakes which usually marks the point at which the cut-and-paste has dried up and the critic is forced to rely on their own wit and wisdom to get by.

Swart · Dec 29, 2005

buddy mack said:
who said you can't be 'begotten' in the spiritual sense?
and if you can't begotten in the spiritual sense, how does one become a spirit child?

I suppose it is a matter of semantics. When I refer to 'begotten', I regard it as carrying a physical connotation. Jesus is the 'only begotten', yet all of us are sons and daughters, just not 'begotten' - which is why I added 'in the flesh'.

Rescued One · Dec 29, 2005

Swart said:
Where do any of the reference's you gave state the following:

Quite easily, actually.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten son in the flesh.

Jesus is not only son. He is the only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear on that.

The rest of us are (literally) his Spiritual sons and daughters.

You can only be "begotten" physically. You can't be "begotten" spiritually.

Quite simple, really.

If you insist that Jesus was begotten physically by the Father, then that in itself suggests sex between Mary and the LDS Father.

The Only Begotten Son Language. The second piece of evidence we must examine is the expression only-begotten. It is the Greek word monogeneis. This is not simply begotten, for that expression can be applied to all believers, those who have been begotten or born again by the Spirit. This is a unique expression for a unique person, the only-begotten Son of God. The expression appears in John 1:14, 4:18, 3:16, and 3:18. It would literally mean the only generated one. This is the key expression for the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son, meaning, he always was the only begotten Son. The expression does not refer to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, because he is the Son from eternity past.

Perhaps the language can be better understood if contrasted with synonyms. Take the verbs make, create, and beget. The verb make is general; one can make dinner, clothes, a house, or any other product. The create can have the same objects, but usually elevates the act to an art: one creates a masterpiece, or a work of art, or a symphony. While these creations bear the imprint of the creator, they do not share his nature. But beget is different. You can only beget a child that has the same nature as you have--a son or a daughter. There is nothing else you can beget (unless you were speaking very figuratively). Your son or your daughter will inherit his or her nature from you--genes, personality--all of it. You can use make or create for producing a child; but when you use beget it only means you produce a child that has your nature.

Now follow this carefully. If Jesus is said to be the begotten Son of God (using the figure from human language to make the point), then Jesus has the same nature as the Father. If Jesus has the same nature as God the Father, then Jesus is divine and eternal as well. If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning. To call Jesus the only begotten Son means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son.

This is why the creed says that Jesus was begotten, not made. Why? Because he is of one substance with the Father.

One more point. The word begotten has only (mono-) prefixed to it. There is only one. This means that Jesus has a unique relationship with the Father--they two along with the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead. You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God--we are said to be begotten of God. But we are not only-begotten. That refers to Jesus divine nature. We were adopted by grace and given the divine nature by the Spirit so that we may be called the children of God. But Jesus--he is very God of very God. He is the only-begotten Son of God (that is the part of the creed that reads of very God), which means that he is God (that is the part that reads very God).

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=166

Swart · Dec 29, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
If you insist that Jesus was begotten physically by the Father, then that in itself suggests sex between Mary and the LDS Father. http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=166

Sincere question for Mormons

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