Sin

[JM]

What is the extent of sin?

Does sin effect every aspect of our lives? Are we totally depraved unable to choose good (until we are saved) or is our nature only marred a little by sin?

 

[P_G]

Brother could you expound a bit on the question

I am just not understanding it!


Blessings from another street preacher!

Pastor George

 

[BT]

What is the extent of sin?

Does sin effect every aspect of our lives? Are we totally depraved unable to choose good (until we are saved) or is our nature only marred a little by sin?

Sin does not affect every aspect of our lives. There are somethings that we do that are neither sin nor righteous. Such as making a peanut-butter sandwich or tying your shoes. These two things break no laws, moral or otherwise. They are not sin.

 

[OracleX]

Sin does not affect every aspect of our lives. There are somethings that we do that are neither sin nor righteous. Such as making a peanut-butter sandwich or tying your shoes. These two things break no laws, moral or otherwise. They are not sin.

Ya but if you make your peanut-butter sandwich with A&P peanut-butter ... that is a sin to me PC all the way

 

[JM]

Can we please God with our actions...without Christ?

 

[kayanne]

Can we please God with our actions...without Christ?

i'll admit in advance that i expect to get slammed for some of my thoughts on this. i'm not a "good baptist" in some of my thinking here.

i'll say first that i understand our sin grieves God, and that we could never come close to His holiness, or even grasp his holiness. yes, we are all sinners.

but i really can't stand hearing a sermon (as i did recently, not my pastor tho)where he just goes on and on and on about how depraved people are and how sinful people are and that the best we can do is still as filthy rags (yes, i know that's a scripture verse) and our feeble attempts to do good are as disgusting to God as a leper's sores (yes, this was part of that sermon) and on and on and on.

we are made in God's image! i do not believe that there is absolutely no speck of good in anyone. if a baby is born without even one speck of goodness in him, pardon the possible disrespect to God, but would that be the baby's fault or God's fault? well, since God doesn't have any faults, and i don't believe it's the baby's fault, then i am left with the option that the baby, being created in God's image, has at least some amount of God's goodness. i believe that, although we are not born with the ability to be sinless, we are also not born with a complete disability to ever do good.

i don't like dwelling on how wicked, perverted, evil, the unsaved are. i would end up being disgusted and hating them all. i can see goodness in almost anyone--not holiness, not perfection, not a goodness that will get them to heaven--but at least some measure of kindness, caring, joy.

when i think of unsaved people, i think of their blindness, their unfortunate influence from a world that opposes God, the hold that satan has on their thinking, and i grieve for them and pity them. but i don't view them as totally unable to do anything good. i can still marvel at God's creation of them, and their intricacies, their talents, and other good things that reflect a loving creator.

 

[BT]

i'll admit in advance that i expect to get slammed for some of my thoughts on this. i'm not a "good baptist" in some of my thinking here.

i'll say first that i understand our sin grieves God, and that we could never come close to His holiness, or even grasp his holiness. yes, we are all sinners.

but i really can't stand hearing a sermon (as i did recently, not my pastor tho)where he just goes on and on and on about how depraved people are and how sinful people are and that the best we can do is still as filthy rags (yes, i know that's a scripture verse) and our feeble attempts to do good are as disgusting to God as a leper's sores (yes, this was part of that sermon) and on and on and on.

we are made in God's image! i do not believe that there is absolutely no speck of good in anyone. if a baby is born without even one speck of goodness in him, pardon the possible disrespect to God, but would that be the baby's fault or God's fault? well, since God doesn't have any faults, and i don't believe it's the baby's fault, then i am left with the option that the baby, being created in God's image, has at least some amount of God's goodness. i believe that, although we are not born with the ability to be sinless, we are also not born with a complete disability to ever do good.

i don't like dwelling on how wicked, perverted, evil, the unsaved are. i would end up being disgusted and hating them all. i can see goodness in almost anyone--not holiness, not perfection, not a goodness that will get them to heaven--but at least some measure of kindness, caring, joy.

when i think of unsaved people, i think of their blindness, their unfortunate influence from a world that opposes God, the hold that satan has on their thinking, and i grieve for them and pity them. but i don't view them as totally unable to do anything good. i can still marvel at God's creation of them, and their intricacies, their talents, and other good things that reflect a loving creator.

I should hope that you wouldn't get slammed for this. There isn't anything wrong with it.

 

[BT]

Can we please God with our actions...without Christ?

Can we no.

Could anyone at any time yes. According to God anyway.

The only action that we could do to please God would be accepting Christ or believing on Christ, or the Word. Apart from that, no we can not please God with our actions (else we could be saved by our works).
Is man totally depraved? Yes.
Is man totally unable? No.
Is God sovereign? Yes.
Has God in His sovereignty allowed man a choice? Yes.
Can the sovereignty of God and the free will of man both exist? Yes, if you believe the scriptures.

 

[kayanne]

I should hope that you wouldn't get slammed for this. There isn't anything wrong with it.

but then in your next post you said we can not please God, other than in our accepting of Christ.
so, are you saying that you agree with me when i say there is an element of goodness (based on God' image) within us, yet when we use our element of goodness to do something good, that doesn't please God?
i'm not suggesting that "pleasing God" with a particular action equals being "good enough" to be saved. but surely God must be pleased when a person makes a choice to do something kind, loving, and sacrificial rather than something selfish, unkind, or lazy.
surely God takes more delight in seeing His created beings treat each other with love rather than with hatred.

 

[BT]

but then in your next post you said we can not please God, other than in our accepting of Christ.
so, are you saying that you agree with me when i say there is an element of goodness (based on God' image) within us, yet when we use our element of goodness to do something good, that doesn't please God?
i'm not suggesting that "pleasing God" with a particular action equals being "good enough" to be saved. but surely God must be pleased when a person makes a choice to do something kind, loving, and sacrificial rather than something selfish, unkind, or lazy.
surely God takes more delight in seeing His created beings treat each other with love rather than with hatred.

Indeed I agree with you and I agree with what I said. Let me try to explain without confusing the both of us.

If a person makes a choice to do something kind, like when an unsaved person rescues a baby from a burning fire.. This is not sin. (This is where I agree with you)

But that unsaved person saving a baby from a burning building does not please God, in that it is not a righteous act before God, or put another way this man doesn't get "brownie points" with God. (This is where I agree with my point)

So it's a good thing, but it's not a righteous thing. I know that's a complicated thing to grasp...

There are some who believe that there is a "spark of divinity" in man. Which, if we took this man's actions and made them "righteous" would be true. However we know from the Bible that man's righteousness is as filthy rags to God. Meaning that if this man saved babies everyday, and loved his family, and did all kinds of "moral" things (though they are "good" things) he still could not get into heaven, because he has no righteousness. Righteousness must be imputed by God. This man, though he is a hero you might say, is still a sinner in need of Christ absolutely.

hrmm.. I hope you aren't twice as confused as you were before...

 

[kayanne]

But that unsaved person saving a baby from a burning building does not please God, in that it is not a righteous act before God, or put another way this man doesn't get "brownie points" with God.

i agree fully (plus i am chuckling at the brownie points comment)

So it's a good thing, but it's not a righteous thing. I know that's a complicated thing to grasp...

i have no problem seeing the difference between "good" and "righteous," in fact i think that was a good distinction to make. i think maybe the only thing we disagree on is whether or not God is pleased by "goodness" or only by "righteousness." i guess i never really thought about it before, but my unthought out reply would be that He may be pleased by goodness, but since an unsaved person's acts of goodness are interspersed with acts of sin, an unsaved person does not have the righteousness required to fully please or fully satisfy God's requirement.

There are some who believe that there is a "spark of divinity" in man.

eeeew. that phrase just sounds distasteful to me. somehow that sounds more new-agey or something than what i meant when i was talking about God's image within us (which is of course Biblical).

However we know from the Bible that man's righteousness is as filthy rags to God. Meaning that if this man saved babies everyday, and loved his family, and did all kinds of "moral" things (though they are "good" things) he still could not get into heaven, because he has no righteousness. Righteousness must be imputed by God. This man, though he is a hero you might say, is still a sinner in need of Christ absolutely.

total agreement here.

hrmm.. I hope you aren't twice as confused as you were before...

nope, i don't think so. i like what you've said. now i'd just like your thoughts on my point about "pleasing God" versus "fully pleasing God."
(the pressure's on.......we could end up in complete agreement on the issue, so answer carefully!) lol kayanne

 

[BT]

i have no problem seeing the difference between "good" and "righteous," in fact i think that was a good distinction to make. i think maybe the only thing we disagree on is whether or not God is pleased by "goodness" or only by "righteousness." i guess i never really thought about it before, but my unthought out reply would be that He may be pleased by goodness, but since an unsaved person's acts of goodness are interspersed with acts of sin, an unsaved person does not have the righteousness required to fully please or fully satisfy God's requirement.

hrrmmmm

I talked to a friend of mine one time about this and he made a good point. Perhaps it will help us.

When a man does good (unsaved), you have to look at his motive. Why did he save the baby, to be a hero? Why does he love his wife, because she loves him back, or physically and emotionally gratifies him? Can man truly love someone if the love of God does not dwell in him? We know one thing, and that is that the motive of the unsaved is not to please God. Is God therefore pleased at the action regardless? Or does he look at the motivation behind the action.

I really don't know. It's a decent argument but... I don't know.

I'll have to really think about it... We agree that the unsaved could never fully please God, but can he do things that are pleasing to God? Or that, because the are morally good are pleasing to God? Mabey we could say that God is pleased at the action but not the actor. Does an unsaved man saving a life give glory to God? Probably not. I can't find any scripture to back up the idea of the unsaved's action as pleasing.

I think that my first reply would be no, man can not please God or do something that pleases God apart from Christ, because even the good acts that a man might do will bring no glory to God, but would rather bring glory to the man. In this I would have to say God is not pleased.

It's a good question though...