Sin unto death

FutureAndAHope · Jan 28, 2023

Let's return to the scripture to see how much sin the cross covers.

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

That says, in the same way, man lives one life and dies, so Christ was offered once, His atonement covers a whole lifetime of sins. Just because some people are made blind due to their unfaithfulness does not make God's word any less true.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

Guojing · Jan 28, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
What doctrine are you trying to build here? One that God does not forgive? He will forgive anyone who genuinely repents, a person who has taken the mark, has had a lifetime of denial of Jesus, and has no desire for repentance. Note:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There are certain people who God does not desire to forgive, but that does not lower the power of the cross for man. Any man who desires repentance can have it. Anyone who has enough sight to see it, as a possibility. The deluded, those who take the mark have no desire for repentance, they are blind.

But what if after he takes the mark, he is willing to repent?

Is that impossible?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 28, 2023

Guojing said:
But what if after he takes the mark, he is willing to repent?

Is that impossible?

If a person takes the mark they have already been deemed "unforgiven" by God. They will not repent.

Guojing · Jan 28, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
If a person takes the mark they have already been deemed "unforgiven" by God. They will not repent.

Are they deemed unforgiven by God because they won't repent, or is it the other way round?

Which comes first?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 28, 2023

Guojing said:
Are they deemed unforgiven by God because they won't repent, or is it the other way round?

Which comes first?

The scripture says, they first rejected God. They would not receive a love of the truth. In order to receive something it has to be offered. God offered salvation but they rather delighted in sin.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Guojing · Jan 28, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
The scripture says, they first rejected God. They would not receive a love of the truth. In order to receive something it has to be offered. God offered salvation but they rather delighted in sin.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So that sin is special because it means they reject God, and hence they are deemed unforgiven. They cannot even choose to repent

The other sins do not result in that unforgiven status.

Mark Quayle · Jan 28, 2023

Guojing said:
So it is not exactly true that "We see from Hebrews 9 that the cross covers our lifetime of sins. The cross was a life given for a lifetime of failures. A person who confesses their sins can be forgiven:"?

At least that sin cannot be forgiven?

"And whoever shall deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in the heavens."

Mark Quayle · Jan 28, 2023

Guojing said:
Are they deemed unforgiven by God because they won't repent, or is it the other way round?

Which comes first?

Same question shows up in the minds of those who think that uncaused free will is necessary for one to be responsible for their own sin. They think if God caused it, the person did not choose. Not so. They are unforgiven because they don't repent.

But we aren't talking about regret here.

Diamond72 · Jan 28, 2023

fli said:
The second death only those not found in the book of life will die.

Everyone is in the book of life. If their name is not there then it was blotted out. There are other books written that they are judged from. Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Der Alte · Jan 28, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Your question seems to assume our conversation is off in a separate room from God's purpose for the story. Like with the question of why did God do what he did to Job, I say, one reason is so that we would have this conversation. There is no end to the things of Scripture that we don't have all the knowledge about, including what knowledge the contemporaries did have. None of us speaks the Koine Greek as a native or even as a practical user in ancient times. None of us was around back then. And even back then nobody had perfect understanding of anything.
In other words, what is it to us, how pagans or Christians alike in far off places understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Is there some reason to decide whether it was just a story or not based on whether they would have thought so or not?

I didn't quote "how pagans or Christians alike in far off places understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man." I quoted 5 early church fathers, i.e. Christians. All five appeared to consider the story of Lazarus and the rich man factual. I think that should have some bearing here.
Which is how I think those former pagans in far off countries would have understood it. They would not have been familiar with Jewish figures of speech.
As I have said many times a parable has a specific format. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparing it to something known/understood. E.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like unto..." Lazarus and the rich man lacks that format. I do not think so, but it may be one of the other 211 figures of speech used in the Bible.
All the unquestioned "parables" refer to anonymous people; a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The Lazarus story names two specific people. "Lazarus" otherwise unknown and Abraham, who the rich man addresses as Father Abraham. I maintain that if Abraham was not in that place and did not say the words that Jesus quoted. Jesus was lying. Something that many people are not aware of the rich man violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:11
(11) For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

The rich man did not even give Lazarus the crumbs from his table.

Sin unto death

FutureAndAHope

Just me

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Guojing

Well-Known Member

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FutureAndAHope

Just me

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Guojing

Well-Known Member

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FutureAndAHope

Just me

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Guojing

Well-Known Member

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Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72

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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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