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Sin! The final statement????

ricko

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God put Adam in a "good garden" to dress it and keep it.
Eve lied to the serpent with regard to "touching" the forbidden fruit.
We have had some forum members give their thoughts about sin.
We still have not come up with a decisive answer.
Perhaps Albert Einstein had the answer.
He spoke about a fifth dimension, Good and Evil.
Good and Evil can be defined by every individual according their own understanding.

In the Garden of Eden, we have the Tree of Knowledge, Good and Evil.
The enemy even stated: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So perhaps sin is not an attitude or behaviour, or something that just "displeases God", but maybe when the fruit was consumed, it invoked something into the life of mankind.
Another "dimension" or "spiritual rule" in which our caring Father tried to protect us from, so that we would not DIE!!!

The Knowledge of Good and Evil, for Adam and Eve did not know that they were naked, therefore they covered the one thing that replicates God.
The ability to create, their sexual organs.

Any thoughts? :idea:
 

stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Please allow me to throw in a(n orthodox) Jewish view! (I've culled what follows from the writings of Rabbi Ari Kahn.)

We may conclude from Genesis 2:16-17 that Adam (and Eve) were not forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life prior to their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Our Sages identify the Tree of Life with the Torah (see Proverbs 3:1...3:18; the Hebrew phrase erroneously translated as "My teaching" in 3:1 is Torati, literally "My Torah") & teach that the Tree of Life in the garden was the embodiment of the Torah & all the wisdom contained therein. If the Tree of Life is the Torah, then what is the Tree of Knowledge? Our Sages comment on the usage of the root y-d-h (which, in its various forms, means "to know", "knowledge", etc.) and note that its first occurence immediately after the expuilsion is in Genesis 4:1 ("And Adam knew his wife...") & conclude that knowledge implies experience; thus, our Sages identify the Tree of Knowledge (Etz Ha'daat in Hebrew, with da'at being a cognate of that y-d-h root) as the Tree of Experience.

Rabbi Kahn explains that God's plan was for Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Life (i.e. partake of the Torah) before delving into the world of experience (i.e. eat from the Tree of Knowledge). But, incited by the snake (whom our Sages identify with the yetzer hara, the selfish/self-centered impulse http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm#Yetzer in all of us), we messed up the order & got it backwards. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The advantage of Torah wisdom preceding experience is that the Torah, once internalized, will serve as a basis from which subsequent experience will be interpreted. Torah becomes a vantage point from which experiences are viewed and understood. If, however, experiences are acquired first, they will serve as a basis for the interpretation given subsequently to Torah. This latter sequence can lead to distortion of the Torah and misinterpretation based on the subjective experience of the individual. Torah must precede experience. Torah must be the benchmark by which Jews lead their lives." So instead of receiving the Torah & its wisdom and infusing it into the very core of our collective being at the very beginning of our existence as a species, we are driven from it with a sword-wielding cherub barring, I wouldn't say the way back to it, rather I'd say, barring this particular way back to it.

Jump forward to Moses & the Burning Bush on Mt. Sinai in Exodus 3:1-4:19. Our Sages see this revelation on Mt. Sinai as a microcosm of the second & greater revelation on Mt. Sinai, i.e. of the 10 Commandments & the Torah itself, beginning a few chapters later. When Moses protests that we would not believe him, that God had revealed Himself to him, God tells Moses to cast his (wooden) staff on the ground. It becomes a snake & Moses flees from it. God then told Moses to pick it up & it becomes a staff again. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The staff, which is, after all, only a piece of wood, can become a snake. When Moses sees this snake he becomes justifiably frightened, not just because a snake is dangerous, but because it symbolizes sin. Our previous experience with a snake had disastrous consequences for the world. But now, things are different...Moses is shown that he can control the snake. The antidote is in his hands. Evil can be countered. When one connects with the Transcendent God, via Torah, evil can have no hold."

Jump forward once more. The Torah scroll that Moses wrote (like the 10 Commandments are a microcosm for/symbolize/represent the entire Torah) was placed in the Ark (interpretations of Deuteronomy 31:24-26 differ; some of our Sages say that the Torah scroll was placed on a shelf inside/outside the ark, or in the ark next to one side). What was on top of the ark, guarding the Torah? Once again, cherubs. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The first mention of cherubs in the Torah is in the verse describing the eviction of man from the Garden of Eden...As a result of man's sin, the cherubs enter the world, in order to protect the Tree of Life. We have noted the identification between the Tree of Life and the Torah. It is therefore interesting to note that with the Ark the cherubs protect the Ark which contains the Torah, and in Eden the cherubs protected the path leading to the Tree of Life/Torah. Interesting as this similarity is, it does not enlighten us regarding the essence of the cherubs. Before the sin of Adam and Eve, the cherubs were unnecessary; they appear only as a result of the sin. Perhaps we may draw the following conclusion - the cherubs represent none other than Adam and Eve themselves, young and innocent and naked in the Garden of Eden. Only as a result of their sin did they become aware of, and embarrassed by, their nakedness. The new, "sophisticated" perspective of Adam and Eve, born of partaking of the forbidden fruit, gave them a different, perhaps distorted view of the world. After the sin, they knew that they were naked; they needed to clothe themselves, to hide from God. It is fascinating that the Hebrew word for clothing is beged, which shares the same root as the word "rebellion" (b'gida). The clothing which man wears is a memorial to rebellion and the resultant distancing from God...At the top of the ark, in place of this jaded couple, pathetically attempting to hide from God, now stood an innocent looking couple, representing Adam and Eve before the sin in a state of total innocence before God. Specifically from this place would the word of God emerge and reverberate...The two cherubs were made of one piece of gold, just as Adam and Eve were initially joined together as one. The cherubs therefore symbolize the ultimate return to one's self."

Thus, by clinging to the Torah (which we must now obtain through effort & struggle) we can re-attain our lost innocence and spiritual purity. Armed with the Torah, we (like Moses at the burning bush) need not fear the snake/yetzer hara.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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rebazar

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4. EVIL, SIN, AND INIQUITY



It was the habit of Jesus two evenings each week to hold special converse with individuals who desired to talk with him, in a certain secluded and sheltered corner of the Zebedee garden. At one of these evening conversations in private Thomas asked the Master this question: "Why is it necessary for men to be born of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom? Is rebirth necessary to escape the control of the evil one? Master, what is evil?" When Jesus heard these questions, he said to Thomas:

"Do not make the mistake of confusing evil with the evil one, more correctly the iniquitous one. He whom you call the evil one is the son of self-love, the high administrator(Lucifer) who knowingly went into deliberate rebellion against the rule of my Father and his loyal Sons. But I have already vanquished these sinful rebels. Make clear in your mind these different attitudes toward the Father and his universe. Never forget these laws of relation to the Father's will:

"Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father's will.

"Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed.

"Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father's loving plan of personality survival and the Sons' merciful ministry of salvation.

"By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful. Man is indeed subject to evil, but he is in no sense the child of the evil one unless he has knowingly and deliberately chosen the paths of sin and the life of iniquity. Evil is inherent in the natural order of this world, but sin is an attitude of conscious rebellion which was brought to this world by those who fell from spiritual light into gross darkness.


"You are confused, Thomas, by the doctrines of the Greeks and the errors of the Persians. You do not understand the relationships of evil and sin because you view mankind as beginning on earth with a perfect Adam and rapidly degenerating, through sin, to man's present deplorable estate. But why do you refuse to comprehend the meaning of the record which discloses how Cain, the son of Adam, went over into the land of Nod and there got himself a wife? And why do you refuse to interpret the meaning of the record which portrays the sons of God finding wives for themselves among the daughters of men?

"Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth--the baptism of the spirit--is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man.



"The Greeks and others have taught you that man is descending from godly perfection steadily down toward oblivion or destruction; I have come to show that man, by entrance into the kingdom, is ascending certainly and surely up to God and divine perfection. Any being who in any manner falls short of the divine and spiritual ideals of the eternal Father's will is potentially evil, but such beings are in no sense sinful, much less iniquitous.

"Thomas, have you not read about this in the Scriptures, where it is written: `You are the children of the Lord your God.' `I will be his Father and he shall be my son.' `I have chosen him to be my son--I will be his Father.' `Bring my sons from far and my daughters from the ends of the earth; even every one who is called by my name, for I have created them for my glory.' `You are the sons of the living God.' `They who have the spirit of God are indeed the sons of God.' While there is a material part of the human father in the natural child, there is a spiritual part of the heavenly Father in every faith son of the kingdom."


All this and much more Jesus said to Thomas, and much of it the apostle comprehended, although Jesus admonished him to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father." And Thomas did not mention this interview until after the Master had departed from this world.



[from The Urantia Book]



Enjoy
 
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MoonlessNight

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Perhaps Albert Einstein had the answer.
He spoke about a fifth dimension, Good and Evil.
Good and Evil can be defined by every individual according their own understanding.
Sorry to interupt, but this seems to me to be identical to the exchange (from Season 1 Episode 17, Through the Looking Glass) on Farscape:

ZHAAN - "I've always wondered what could be beyond height and width, depth and time."
CHRICHTION - "Nausea?"
ZHAAN - "Spirituality."
CHRICHTON - "It's a nice thought."

Of course neither that nor your point had anything really resembling the scientific (or mathematic for that matter) notion of multiple dimensions, but I'm not complaining because it doesn't seem to be your main point. Just noticed the striking similarities between your statement and that series of quotes, is all.
 
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