Sin suffering and individuation

[TedT]

Right! Adam and Eve were not made “perfect”, Jesus is perfect, but Jesus is not a created being, He is Deity. God could not make beings which have always existed, clones of Christ, so Adam and Eve were made “very good”, which by God’s standard might mean: “As good as a being can be made”.

What Adam and Eve lacked, is why humans spend time here on earth, fulfilling their objective? Adam and Eve could fulfill their earthly objective after they sinned.

A third of the angels did not fulfill their objective and followed satan. Could that method be repeated?

The perfection I was speaking about in connection to their, our, creation was that we must have been created perfectly, completely, able to fulfill HIS reason for our creation which I suggest was our heavenly marriage with HIM.

No one was created unable to be his Bride. But since a Stepford Wife was not what HE wanted we had to choose to accept HIS marriage proposal by a free uncoerced decision which, as free, had to include the ability to reject HIS proposal.

So, while were were created with the perfect ability to fulfill our purpose, we also had the perfect ability to reject that proposed based upon our strongest hopes for a perfect life.

I suggest that to bring us from a perfect ability to fulfill HIS purpose to the actual fulfillment of HIS purpose by our free will decision to accept it, HE proclaimed to every person made in HIS image that HE, a Trinity, was our creator GOD who created us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage and that salvation from any sin could only be found in the Son...with all the necessary details to ensure we had everything we needed for a true choice.

Most fulfilled their perfect ability to become HIS Bride.
Some chose instead to perfectly fail HIS purpose for them and repudiated HIS claims and proposal of marriage for ever. The failure was NOT found in a lack of our ability to be able to fulfill HIS purpose for us but in our self chosen (that is, uncoerced, uncreated by GOD) desires and hopes.

 

[TedT]

A third of the angels did not fulfill their objective and followed satan.

Have you ever noticed that the word tossing or flung or hurled down in Rev 12: 4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. is exactly the same word used when Michael defeated Satan in the verse
9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The word has a connotation of anger and ferocity to it apparently so I wonder why Satan would angrily toss away one third of all creation who were in his army just before his fight against the holy elect angels? These stars were swept up by him, that is, they had sinned with him but he, not GOD or the holy angels, sweeps them into the earth! THEN he goes to war against the holy angels. Why were these sinners NOT useful to him in his fight against GOD???

Please consider:
that the one third of all the stars might refer to the elect angels who became evil in GOD's sight when they rebelled against the call to come out from among their friends who were about to be condemned. This sin of some of the elect because of their loving idolatry of their condemned friends over the call of GOD but they were no use to Satan as they were still HIS flock, gone astray into sin but unwilling to go to war against HIM.

One third of all the angels is a huge army... if you have another reason why Satan would toss them away before his fight against the holy angels, I'd like to hear it. Of course it does imply that the fallen elect were all there, ie, were chosen as the elect and fell into sin before the earth became Satan's prison but why is that so important to reject, that is to think GOD lost one third of all creation to eternal evil rather than they were elect, eventually saved in Christ?

 

[bling]

The perfection I was speaking about in connection to their, our, creation was that we must have been created perfectly, completely, able to fulfill HIS reason for our creation which I suggest was our heavenly marriage with HIM.

No one was created unable to be his Bride. But since a Stepford Wife was not what HE wanted we had to choose to accept HIS marriage proposal by a free uncoerced decision which, as free, had to include the ability to reject HIS proposal.

So, while were were created with the perfect ability to fulfill our purpose, we also had the perfect ability to reject that proposed based upon our strongest hopes for a perfect life.

I suggest that to bring us from a perfect ability to fulfill HIS purpose to the actual fulfillment of HIS purpose by our free will decision to accept it, HE proclaimed to every person made in HIS image that HE, a Trinity, was our creator GOD who created us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage and that salvation from any sin could only be found in the Son...with all the necessary details to ensure we had everything we needed for a true choice.

Most fulfilled their perfect ability to become HIS Bride.
Some chose instead to perfectly fail HIS purpose for them and repudiated HIS claims and proposal of marriage for ever. The failure was NOT found in a lack of our ability to be able to fulfill HIS purpose for us but in our self chosen (that is, uncoerced, uncreated by GOD) desires and hopes.

This makes our time on earth a “testing” ground, chose “A” or “B”. This sounds like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, yet some people refuse and accept hell instead?

To be the “bride of God”, we have to be able to Love God like He Loves us, for us to become one with God, like Christ is one with God, as you say we cannot be a Stepford Wife.

God Love us in spite of what we have done, what we are doing and what we will do. His Love is not “logical”, since it cost Him way more pain, sorrow, hurt, and sacrifice, then He will ever get out of it. So, it is by His thought-out choice to Love.

Our Love for God has to way exceed our Love for spouse, children, parents, and self, which again is not “logical”, but we can of our own free will choose to Love God, because that has become part of who we are.

Godly type Love, I addressed in my post 5, but again it is not something we can instinctively have (it is not a knee jerk reaction) to begin with (again we are not to be a Stepford Wife) programmed to “love”.

It is way beyond something man can learn, develop, earn or pay back.

How do you obtain this Love?

 

[TedT]

This makes our time on earth a “testing” ground, chose “A” or “B”. This sounds like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, yet some people refuse and accept hell instead?

As you say, trying to make my contention about our creation in perfection cannot be supported if we are created on earth.

That is why I contend that our creation with an equal ability and opportunity to use our free will to choose to put our faith, our unproven hope, in HIM or against HIM MUST HAVE happened pre-earth, not on earth, since we arrive here as sinners with a will power already enslaved to evil, ie, no free will and already chosen to be HIS Bride or already condemned for blaspheming HIM.

To be the “bride of God”, we have to be able to Love God like He Loves us, for us to become one with God, like Christ is one with God, as you say we cannot be a Stepford Wife.

First comes holiness, then will come learning to love (no sinner can learn to love perfectly, let alone love GOD). As sinners already failing to fulfill HIS purpose for us, we live on earth with the reprobate to learn to become holy and to separate from them and then we will learn to perfectly love GOD and then will come the wedding.

Earth is not where we choose to become perfect: it is where, by HIS choice, those who already failed to become perfect are redeemed or damned, sanctified or banished.

 

[bling]

As you say, trying to make my contention about our creation in perfection cannot be supported if we are created on earth.

That is why I contend that our creation with an equal ability and opportunity to use our free will to choose to put our faith, our unproven hope, in HIM or against HIM MUST HAVE happened pre-earth, not on earth, since we arrive here as sinners with a will power already enslaved to evil, ie, no free will and already chosen to be HIS Bride or already condemned for blaspheming HIM.


First comes holiness, then will come learning to love (no sinner can learn to love perfectly, let alone love GOD). As sinners already failing to fulfill HIS purpose for us, we live on earth with the reprobate to learn to become holy and to separate from them and then we will learn to perfectly love GOD and then will come the wedding.

Earth is not where we choose to become perfect: it is where, by HIS choice, those who already failed to become perfect are redeemed or damned, sanctified or banished.

That makes no sense at all. There is nothing in scripture about our “preexistence”. We are not born sinners. Yes, we will sin, but like I said sin has purpose.

You say: “we will learn to perfectly love GOD”, but Godly type Love is way beyond any human’s ability to “learn”. It can only come as a purely sacrificial charitable gift from God. The only way to obtain this gift initially has been: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if a person accepts God’s forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin that person will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).