Sin and God

[brightmorningstar]

To Cantata,

He was written about because some people believed he was the Messiah, of course.

Of course which is why they record Him claiming He is.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Jesus died because the Romans thought he might start a Jewish revolution, not because he thought he was God.

But based on what? The Bible account has Barabbas released and the Roman governor Pilate not able to see fault with Jesus.

 

[cantata]

To Cantata,
Of course which is why they record Him claiming He is.

Yes.

It doesn't mean he claimed he was, though. It means they wrote that he claimed he was.

But based on what? The Bible account has Barabbas released and the Roman governor Pilate not able to see fault with Jesus.

Based on the fact that the Romans wouldn't execute someone for blasphemy against the Jewish faith.

 

[WatersMoon110]

This belief might be a bit Sufi-esque, but it's sort of my opinion on the matter:

Sins are the things we mistakenly do because we believe ourselves to be separated from God. If we can truly experience God, we can see that the righteous path is easy if one acts out of Love. If one truly acts out of Love, one will not sin.

But then, I don't agree with most Christians' ideas of what things are sinful. *shrug*

Good luck with your paper!

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Cantata,
So what made them think He was the messiah if they merely wrote they thought He was?

Based on the fact that the Romans wouldn't execute someone for blasphemy against the Jewish faith.

But they didn’t execute Him because for blasphemy according to the Biblical testimony they crucified Him because the Jews wanted Him crucified instead of Barabbas who was the Jewish revolutionary, yet you said the Romans thought He might start a revolution. So what you are saying is, you don’t believe the Biblical accounts of Pilate and the Romans because you don’t believe the disciples accounts of who He claimed He was. It seems your belief is everythi ng opposite to what the Bible says.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Cantata,
So what made them think He was the messiah if they merely wrote they thought He was?

Based on the fact that the Romans wouldn't execute someone for blasphemy against the Jewish faith.

But they didn’t execute Him because for blasphemy according to the Biblical testimony they crucified Him because the Jews wanted Him crucified instead of Barabbas who was the Jewish revolutionary, yet you said the Romans thought He might start a revolution. So what you are saying is, you don’t believe the Biblical accounts of Pilate and the Romans because you don’t believe the disciples accounts of who He claimed He was. It seems your belief is everythi ng opposite to what the Bible says.

 

[cantata]

So what made them think He was the messiah if they merely wrote they thought He was?

Heaven knows. People believe some crazy things.

But they didn’t execute Him because for blasphemy according to the Biblical testimony they crucified Him because the Jews wanted Him crucified instead of Barabbas who was the Jewish revolutionary, yet you said the Romans thought He might start a revolution. So what you are saying is, you don’t believe the Biblical accounts of Pilate and the Romans because you don’t believe the disciples accounts of who He claimed He was. It seems your belief is everythi ng opposite to what the Bible says.

Hate to break it to you, but just because something is written in the Bible doesn't mean I'm obliged to believe it.

Why do you think the Romans arrested Jesus?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Cantata,

Heaven knows. People believe some crazy things.

What do you mean by heaven? I would suggest ‘Heaven’ is a Biblical concept. Paradise is more a general concept.

Hate to break it to you, but just because something is written in the Bible doesn't mean I'm obliged to believe it.

But what makes you believe something opposite to it?

Why do you think the Romans arrested Jesus?

I don’t think they did, the Bible says that the Jewish leaders and temple guards arrested Him. How do you suppose it was the Romans when you weren’t even there?

 

[cantata]

To Cantata,
What do you mean by heaven? I would suggest ‘Heaven’ is a Biblical concept. Paradise is more a general concept.

It's a figure of speech, pet.

But what makes you believe something opposite to it?

Common sense.

I don’t think they did, the Bible says that the Jewish leaders and temple guards arrested Him. How do you suppose it was the Romans when you weren’t even there?

Because the Romans executed him. Why would they execute someone they hadn't arrested and had no interest in?

 

[WatersMoon110]

I don’t think they did, the Bible says that the Jewish leaders and temple guards arrested Him. How do you suppose it was the Romans when you weren’t even there?

The Jewish people never used Crucifiction as a form of punishment. The Romans, however, Crucified thousands of Jews, including Jesus. The Pharisees had no sway with Rome, and Rome claimed ownership and rulership over the all of the areas where Jesus lived and traveled. Since Jesus died by Crucifiction, it had to be Rome that killed Him.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

No the Romans did not arrest Jesus.
Cantata, I don't like to ask the same question twice if it's evaded the first time, but which historical texts are you using to draw these conclusions?

The Temple guards arrested Jesus on behalf of the Sanhedrin. They were allowed to do this under Roman jurisdiction but not allowed to execute. Jesus was tried before Caiphas (BTW, Mark's Gospel; Caiphas asks Jesus if He is the Son of God. What does Jesus say and what is Caiphas' response).
Caiphas and the rest of the Sanhedrin found Him guilty of blasphemy. They had to hand Him over to the Romans to be executedbecause they were an occupied people and not allowed to carry out the death penalty. Such serious crimes had to be dealt with by the Roman procurator.

Pilate had Jesus crucified. I think he wasn't keen on doing this for political reasons; but similarly he wasn't sufficiently keen on not doing it for the same reasons.

Given the documentary evidence that exists of the last days of Jesus' life, I don't see why this is in doubt. Unless of course you have a different historical source that I don't know about.

 

[cantata]

I simply don't see a good reason for the Romans to have bothered with executing Jesus (especially if, as you think, it was politically awkward) unless they had some motive for doing so.

Can you not see the value, as far as the gospel writers were concerned, of portraying the Jews as responsible for Jesus' death, and portraying his teaching and his status as Messiah as the reason for his execution? It is hardly surprising that Mark was at pains to argue that Jesus was not a political messiah, since Mark was writing prior to the Roman-Jewish war and presumably didn't want to stir up any trouble. Painting Jesus as an entirely Jewish concern with only spiritual revolution in mind makes sense from Mark's point of view.

 

[sidhe]

I simply don't see a good reason for the Romans to have bothered with executing Jesus (especially if, as you think, it was politically awkward) unless they had some motive for doing so.

Can you not see the value, as far as the gospel writers were concerned, of portraying the Jews as responsible for Jesus' death, and portraying his teaching and his status as Messiah as the reason for his execution? It is hardly surprising that Mark was at pains to argue that Jesus was not a political messiah, since Mark was writing prior to the Roman-Jewish war and presumably didn't want to stir up any trouble. Painting Jesus as an entirely Jewish concern with only spiritual revolution in mind makes sense from Mark's point of view.

Also, there was considerable collusion between the Sanhedrin and the Roman authorities. A Roman arrest of a popular preacher in the political climate of the time would have fomented revolution. Make it a local religious matter that must be brought before the Romans due to the nature of the punishment and the situation is less explosive.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

It was politically awkward for Pilate *not* to execute Him as well.
Pilate was a ruthless b*****d. He executed thousands. If he could see it as causing even a moment's less hassle for himself, I think he would execute a Jewish peasant without batting an eyelid.

The Gospel writers portrayed the reason for Jesus' execution as blasphemy, not His claim to be the messiah. The other message that is even more clear though is that Jesus had to die for the redemption of the people. He is portrayed as the perfect sacrifice, the spotless Passover lamb whose sacrifice would end all sacrifice and reconcile man and God. That He had to die was the important thing, who was responsible for the death was mankind, anything else was of little relevance.

The other Gospels were written after the Roman Jewish war and none of these portray Jesus as a political messiah either.

If Jesus were simply a political messiah, He was a failure and the Gospel writers must have made almost the whole thing up. Why would they bother? What was their motivation?

 

[cantata]

It was politically awkward for Pilate *not* to execute Him as well.
Pilate was a ruthless b*****d. He executed thousands. If he could see it as causing even a moment's less hassle for himself, I think he would execute a Jewish peasant without batting an eyelid.

The Gospel writers portrayed the reason for Jesus' execution as blasphemy, not His claim to be the messiah.

As I say, Pilate had little reason to execute someone for blasphemy. And he certainly wouldn't have tried him for blasphemy as he is portrayed as doing.

What do you believe was Jesus' blasphemy?

The other message that is even more clear though is that Jesus had to die for the redemption of the people. He is portrayed as the perfect sacrifice, the spotless Passover lamb whose sacrifice would end all sacrifice and reconcile man and God. That He had to die was the important thing, who was responsible for the death was mankind, anything else was of little relevance.

I'm not sure it's so obvious that he is portrayed that way. It took a lot of Christian exposition and theological weightlifting to get to today's doctrine(s) of atonement.

The other Gospels were written after the Roman Jewish war and none of these portray Jesus as a political messiah either.

If Jesus were simply a political messiah, He was a failure and the Gospel writers must have made almost the whole thing up. Why would they bother? What was their motivation?

I am not saying that he was a political messiah. I am saying that he was executed as a political leader.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

He is not portrayed as being tried for blasphemy by Pilate.
He is handed over to Pilate by the Sanhedrin "We have a law and according to that law He must die".
Pilate doesn't like that idea very much so the sanhedrin change their tack, "He says He is the king of the Jews, we have no king but Caesar. If you don't kill him, you're no friend of Caesar".
Pilate's not overly keen still. This is all a drag to him.

Let's see what the people think, if it makes them happy, kill Him, if not let Him live.
The crowd is very disappointed with Jesus by now. Many of them too think He should be a political messiah. They are unanimous in their call for His death.

NOW Pilate is interested. He is, after all, a politician. We don't want an agry mob hanging round Jerusalem over Passover. You know how these Jews can get over their religion.
Pilate had Him executed.

Jesus' "blasphemy" was His claim to be the Son of God.

I think it is *very* obvious that He is portrayed as the atoning sacrifice.
It's even more obvious in those letters of Paul that pre-date the writing of the first Gospel that this was how He was perceived in the first 20 years following His death.

 

[jcook922]

He is not portrayed as being tried for blasphemy by Pilate.
He is handed over to Pilate by the Sanhedrin "We have a law and according to that law He must die".
Pilate doesn't like that idea very much so the sanhedrin change their tack, "He says He is the king of the Jews, we have no king but Caesar. If you don't kill him, you're no friend of Caesar".
Pilate's not overly keen still. This is all a drag to him.

Let's see what the people think, if it makes them happy, kill Him, if not let Him live.
The crowd is very disappointed with Jesus by now. Many of them too think He should be a political messiah. They are unanimous in their call for His death.

NOW Pilate is interested. He is, after all, a politician. We don't want an agry mob hanging round Jerusalem over Passover. You know how these Jews can get over their religion.
Pilate had Him executed.

Jesus' "blasphemy" was His claim to be the Son of God.

I think it is *very* obvious that He is portrayed as the atoning sacrifice.
It's even more obvious in those letters of Paul that pre-date the writing of the first Gospel that this was how He was perceived in the first 20 years following His death.

That's an interesting and more down to earth perspective on it than what you read in literature, thanks for the post.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Thank you JCook.