Simple question

[RKO]

7 billion people on earth, let's say that 6 billion have some level of identification with a faith of some kind. Obviously there are thousands of differences in these faiths.
What of those who have it wrong?
a billion Christians, almost a billion muslims. Assuming Christians have it right, what of the muslims. And what of Christians whose faith is wrong (WBC?)

Are the vast majority of all with faith looked upon favorably by God? or not so much?

 

[Nanopants]

I don't believe that God is angered by a child who thinks the Son is superman. I also don't believe He's waiting to strike that child down for an incorrect belief, as soon as an age of accountability catches him unaware.

That said, I'm certain the more important thing is how people behave toward Christ in Christians.

 

[Steeno7]

7 billion people on earth, let's say that 6 billion have some level of identification with a faith of some kind. Obviously there are thousands of differences in these faiths.
What of those who have it wrong?
a billion Christians, almost a billion muslims. Assuming Christians have it right, what of the muslims. And what of Christians whose faith is wrong (WBC?)

Are the vast majority of all with faith looked upon favorably by God? or not so much?

Faith must have an object, it isn't something that just hangs out there in the ether. The object of Christian faith is Jesus Christ, and we believe that salvation is found in no other.

 

[Gottservant]

If you do not receive Christ in life, it is simply a matter of whether you send for Him in Death (selah)

 

[miamited]

7 billion people on earth, let's say that 6 billion have some level of identification with a faith of some kind. Obviously there are thousands of differences in these faiths.
What of those who have it wrong?
a billion Christians, almost a billion muslims. Assuming Christians have it right, what of the muslims. And what of Christians whose faith is wrong (WBC?)

Are the vast majority of all with faith looked upon favorably by God? or not so much?

Hi RKO,

Certainly to the simple human mind a number such as 7 billion seems such a daunting count. We being a creature who empathizes with one another, we of course care about those 7 billion people and we are loath to consider that such a vast number may not receive the promise of God.

However, men are not the ones who get to determine what God does. We are created. We are created to be loved by God and to love God in return. In the end, God will give every single individual exactly what they want in their hearts. Whether that number be 7 billion or a hundred, only those who love God will receive the promise of God.

God has given us His word and given us His Son and given us His Spirit. As Peter writes to us, He now waits patiently for some to believe. If we read the writings of John as he unfolds to us the Revelation of the 'last days', I think it is clear that many, many, many won't love God. According to the account of the last days there will be armies of nations that rise up against the return of Jesus. The blood will literally be as high as a horse's bridle.

We have, in our own human purveyance of death, killed many, many, many people, but never has the blood of those who are dead reached as high as a horse's bridle. When I consider these 'facts' of the Scriptures, while it truly saddens me to think that such a day will come, I am assured by the Scriptures that it inevitably will.

It would even seem to me that there may be included in that loss a great number of those who called themselves 'christians' in this life. Jesus spoke to his disciples of the great day of his Father's judgment and said, "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

It seems painfully clear to me that the people Jesus is speaking of here, were christians on the earth. Who else does works in the name of Jesus?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[St_Worm2]

What of those who have it wrong?

Here is what the RCC has to say about it, these days anyway:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: (161; 1257)

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.​

​

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.​

​

Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 224). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.​

I'm not sure, save a very gracious reading of parts of Romans 2:12-16, how this particular sentiment (#847) is Biblical. I've been told in reference to it that God will do as He pleases, which is hard to argue with unless, of course, consideration is also given to what the rest of the Bible says (e.g. John 3:18; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-12 ...)

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - I'm not sure how #846 above can be taken as Biblically-based either since it, among other things, clearly refers to the RCC alone, not the "catholic" or "universal" Church.

“There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other
name under heaven that has been given among
men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12​

 

[Mediaeval]

Christians are the first fruits of redeemed humanity, which implies that the full harvest is still to come.

 

[St_Worm2]

first fruits...the full harvest is still to come.

Please elaborate. Thanks!

 

[rockytopva]

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48

We who have the full Gospel at hand, and have been instructed since childhood, are going to be much more accountable for what we did than those who have never heard the Gospel.

 

[clark thompson]

7 billion people on earth, let's say that 6 billion have some level of identification with a faith of some kind. Obviously there are thousands of differences in these faiths.
What of those who have it wrong?
a billion Christians, almost a billion muslims. Assuming Christians have it right, what of the muslims. And what of Christians whose faith is wrong (WBC?)

Are the vast majority of all with faith looked upon favorably by God? or not so much?

Sadly many people will face God's judgement, a billion people may follow the religion of Christianity but I doubt that many people have a personally relationship with the Lord.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...And what of Christians whose faith is wrong (WBC?)

I believe all of us have it wrong. Some just have it more wrong than others. I fully expect that Christians of all stripes will hear upon their arrival in Heaven, "You know what, that's not exactly what I meant, but you tried so close enough."

Of course, if you can't keep the second greatest commandment of love your neighbor as yourself, you may be in a wee bit of trouble. (WBC)

 

[St_Worm2]

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

It seems painfully clear to me that the people Jesus is speaking of here, were christians on the earth. Who else does works in the name of Jesus?

Hi Ted, if the people spoken of in Matthew 7:22 were truly "saved", IOW, truly "Christians" (at least at some point in their lives), does it not seem even more peculiar to you that the Lord would declare to them, "I NEVER knew you" ..

Rather, I think these people are examples of some of the "tares" that were sown into the visible church by the devil and deceived by him, believing themselves in the faith even though they never were. The Lord (according to Matthew 13) allowed them to grow together with the "wheat" until the time of the harvest at the end of the age (when they will be separated and destroyed). Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

It also seems clear that those in v22 believed themselves worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven based upon what they had done, rather than upon what He did for them. And while they may have fancied themselves (and perhaps even appeared to some to be) Super Christians, doers of great and mighty deeds in His name, v21 qualifies the kind of works they were actually doing, and tells us (along with v23) a very different story about them, doesn't it ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

In this Christ says He found that part of Himself that belonged to Him: the sheep
while the goats were those who lacked the love to do anything for their neighbour in need.
This will be done when He will gather the whole nations of the world together and separate them one from another
Matthew 25:31-46

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted, if the people spoken of in Matthew 7:22 were truly "saved", IOW, truly "Christians" (at least at some point in their lives), does it not seem even more peculiar to you that the Lord would declare to them, "I NEVER knew you" ..

Hi stworm,

Well, doesn't that position beg the question. Were they destined to be saved? You know, I can call myself the queen of England. Getting to live in Buckingham palace could be a bit more difficult.

Rather, I think these people are examples of some of the "tares" that were sown into the visible church by the devil and deceived by him, believing themselves in the faith even though they never were. The Lord (according to Matthew 13) allowed them to grow together with the "wheat" until the time of the harvest at the end of the age (when they will be separated and destroyed). Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

It also seems clear that those in v22 believed themselves worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven based upon what they had done, rather than upon what He did for them. And while they may have fancied themselves (and perhaps even appeared to some to be) Super Christians, doers of great and mighty deeds in His name, v21 qualifies the kind of works they were actually doing, and tells us (along with v23) a very different story about them, doesn't it ..

Well, that's exactly what I'm pointing out here is the message of the Matthew text. Our only point of contention is how deep in the numbers of 'christians' around the globe would the Lord's knife cut? You seem to believe that it's only going to be some fringe group of christians while I believe it may be a much greater number than we may think to imagine. Only God knows the heart of a man. You and I, we look on the outside and only have the external evidences of a man's thoughts and deeds. God knows the heart.

Yours and His,
David

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[St_Worm2]

Well, doesn't that position beg the question. Were they destined to be saved? You know, I can call myself the queen of England. Getting to live in Buckingham palace could be a bit more difficult.

I guess I never thought of looking at these verses from our vantage point (rather than God's). Interesting.

That said, "were they destined to be saved"? That question is always answered with a Biblically-based "yes", isn't it .. I mean, whether you are of the Reformed persuasion and believe God chooses us unconditionally, IOW, apart from anything we do, or whether you are of the Arminian persuasion and believe God looks through down through time and chooses us based upon our choice of Him, we are still "destined" to be "saved" (or "lost") "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4). Or am I not following your meaning here .. You continue:

Well, that's exactly what I'm pointing out here is the message of the Matthew text. Our only point of contention is how deep in the numbers of 'christians' around the globe would the Lord's knife cut? You seem to believe that it's only going to be some fringe group of christians while I believe it may be a much greater number than we may think to imagine. Only God knows the heart of a man. You and I, we look on the outside and only have the external evidences of a man's thoughts and deeds. God knows the heart.

Again, this is a matter of perspective I suppose, and looking at it from God's perspective, I would say no true "Christian" will ever be "cut" (or they were never a Christian to begin with).

God's blessings to you too! (Numbers 6:24-26)

--David

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ
to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"
Ephesians 1:5​

 

[Viren]

This verse came to mind.

Romans 2:14

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[St_Worm2]

I believe all of us have it wrong. Some just have it more wrong than others. I fully expect that Christians of all stripes will hear upon their arrival in Heaven, "You know what, that's not exactly what I meant, but you tried so close enough."

Of course, if you can't keep the second greatest commandment of love your neighbor as yourself, you may be in a wee bit of trouble. (WBC)

Hi seeking.IAM, so you are saying that our salvation isn't based upon our faith in Him and what 'He' did for us, it's based upon what we do and how well we do it instead ..

No need to answer this but, how many times do you believe you have 'truly' "loved your neighbor as yourself"?

Yours and His,
David

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a
result of works, so that no one may boast"
Ephesians 2:8-9​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hi seeking.IAM, so you are saying that our salvation isn't based upon our faith in Him and what 'He' did for us, it's based upon what we do and how well we do it instead ..

No need to answer this but, how many times do you believe you have 'truly' "loved your neighbor as yourself"? Do you imagine God will save you based upon your attempts to do this to His satisfaction ..

Yours and His,
David

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a
result of works, so that no one may boast"
Ephesians 2:8-9​

ahh yes, the unfeignedness

2 Corinthians 6:6 in pureness, in knowledge, in long suffering, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in love unfeigned,

1 Timothy 1:5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned:

2 Timothy 1:5 having been reminded of the unfeigned faith that is in thee; which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and, I am persuaded, in thee also.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:

I think that was the thing that Philip had when Philip was first introduced to Christ. No guile was within him.

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm sorry Cassie, since you just quoted the post I made to seeking.IAM, I know your comments are directed at it or at me, but after reading what you wrote a couple of times, I still find myself able to do little more than hazard a guess as to your meaning. So, rather than guessing and needing to ask you if I've guessed correctly, would you please restate it so I'm able to truly understand what point or points you are trying to make.

Thank you!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm sorry Cassie, since you just quoted the post I made to seeking.IAM, I know your comments are directed at it or at me, but after reading what you wrote a couple of times, I still find myself able to do little more than hazard a guess as to your meaning. So, rather than guessing and needing to ask you if I've guessed correctly, would you please restate it so I'm able to truly understand what point or points you are trying to make.

Thank you!

Yours and His,
David

Mostly that unfeigned love is a commandment and is the uniform of those who are recognised as His. It can by no means be called a work even tho as Peter says there is a huge progression to be made before arriving at `brotherly love` nevermind loving your enemy.( But if someone is feeding the poor etc I don`t think they will progress far with the Lord if they are doing it to gain an advantage if it is self seeking as to gain a reward in this life.)
Make Your Calling Sure
…4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,…