Simon Cowell

[Wakeup2god]

I recently had an incident at church where a lady wanted to sing with the worship team, she told me that she had received classical training but it was obvious to all but herself that she couldn't hold a note. I allowed her to sing a hymn once but had to make it clear to her that she wouldn't be joining the music team. She was offended and later left the church which went to prove that her attitude wasn't right from the start.

Anyway, has anyone else had to play the part of Simon Cowell regarding wanna be 'performers'?

Rick

 

[Bollman]

Maybe its just me, but I don't want our P&W serves to be about how good we are as musicians. I would never prevent anyone from singing because they weren't up to my standards. If someone feels lead to share a message in song with us then I welcome it. I think it becomes troublesome when we make worship like a talent contest.




Bollman

 

[Wakeup2god]

Agree entirely but in this case it wasn't like that at all. This lady just wanted to perform. There have been others who I've pushed to the microphone cos they've had something good and encouraging to share but in this case it was pure self promotion which was unfounded cos she couldn't hold a note. She was there for the wrong reason.

 

[LondonsBurning]

She cared more about the about the rock and roll than the rock that doesn't roll?

Oh my word, i can't believe i just said that.

 

[becky81101]

I agree that we don't want our P&W services to be ABOUT how good of musicians we are. We want it to be all about God and worshipping Him and who He is.
But -- there should be a standard of quality. I'm not saying that everyone has to have music background as far as formal training. I do think that the worship leader should have some form of previous training to taking on the job. But everyone on the team should have some level of music talent. We have 2 members on our worship team that have never sang in groups or had vocal training, and they do great. They have are naturally talented and have extremely willing spirits to learn whatever they can. But everyone else on the team has had some training, whether instrumental or vocal... they have had formal training. We have an application process, and we even have auditions. The reason for this is not to have a great performance, it's to have quality in leading worship. If you have people leading worship that cannot carry a tune, or do not have adequate instrumental training, then you will be distracting the congregation. I am definitely not all about performance. But like I said, quality is essential. We might want to start a whole other thread about the process of having people join your worship team and what requirements need to be met.
Becky

 

[Wakeup2god]

Something like that LondonsBurning.

More about her breathing than where the breath came from.

I hear you becky, There is a time for letting go and praising God in tune or not but not when you're leading a congregation. If no ones following you're not leading. Unfortunately this lady was all about herself and her classically trained voice. Even more unfortunate was her voice. Don't mean to be cruel but she'd have been better simply reading the words to the songs she wanted to share if that's what it was about.

As for me, I've had no training whatsoever, instrument or vocal but the Lord called me and people follow when I lead. It's a real humbling experiance. I am surrounded by musicians who have had lessons but they're happy to serve me and I them. Bless them all

Fitting the criteria doesn't always constitute calling.

Be blessed all.

 

[talitha]

We had something like that happen at our church. I'm not the bottom-line worship leader, though. The main leader called up a young gal who is a friend of mine and loves Jesus with all her heart, to sing with us. He does that with different people from time to time, and I think it's great. This poor gal, though, believes she can sing well but tends to meander off the key until it sounds terrible. I didn't know what to say afterward, so I just hugged her and didn't say anything. I know everyone else on the team went through the same thing, and I also know that she will probably be wondering why the leader never invites her up again. I don't want people to be hurt! I want this precious gal to continue to lift up her heart to the Lord in abandon! I think I very possibly will be a "bottom line" leader one day, and maybe not in the far-distant future, and I want to know what should be done in this situation?!??!!

blessings on y'all

tal

 

[=-ReveLationz-=]

heres another aspect? do you think if the musicians were incapable of blowing the horns that the wall of jericho would have fallen?

i think there is a place for people who cant sing to bless the congregation, and i think there is a place for Gods Appointed musicians to lead his people to the wells of living water..

many are called but few are chosen, and if you want to be called and chosen, it means you have to stand out from the rest, maybe a bit of training or accountability in the musical side of things would help?..

just a thought, ill add more when my first question is answered?

peaCerz

(and ps. i believe in everyones right to worship God, but i also think God deserves excellence, so its on the individual to present a clean heart AND an excellent [or in various stages in attaining an excellent] voice..)

 

[keyz]

I recently had an incident at church where a lady wanted to sing with the worship team, she told me that she had received classical training but it was obvious to all but herself that she couldn't hold a note. I allowed her to sing a hymn once but had to make it clear to her that she wouldn't be joining the music team. She was offended and later left the church which went to prove that her attitude wasn't right from the start.

Anyway, has anyone else had to play the part of Simon Cowell regarding wanna be 'performers'?

Rick

I've read all your other posts here in this thread. I think if the lady was going for self-promotion and was trying to put herself in the spotlight then you did a good thing by asking her to step down. However, I don't think it's a good thing to ask someone to step down based on their performance, but based on a worshipper. For you all know that ladies heart was just to get up there and sing about God because that's her passion. I would be very distraught if someone told me I was not allowed to participate because I didn't meet such and such a criteria according to MAN instead of GOD. What I think it really comes down to is the worshipper inside of the person. If the person is all about performance then... well, I don't think that is so important. I think being a worshipper is more important than being a performer. I'd be very wary playing a part of Simon Cowell in the church because you may never know what is really inside of that person's heart if you go based off their musical abilities. I think God rather looks at the heart than the music. haha, but then you have to find the balance of letting someone absolutely awful to sing or not letting them because there awfulness can be distraction. ahhh.. it's tricky. That's when you need God's guidance.

One thing to mention is that it only says in one spot of the Bible to play skillfully. But then there are parts about worshipping God with your heart, your soul, and your mind. Not much emphasize is ever put on playing skillfully according to man. I think it all comes from the heart of the person.

You probably did the right thing if she was trying to self-exalt herself, but just be very careful with passing the judgment with somebody's heart. I've heard the absolutely worst singers sing a worship song, but it was absolutely wonderful because of the heart that was put in it. Make sure you are looking for worshippers instead of performers. (Just IMO)

 

[keyz]

i think there is a place for people who cant sing to bless the congregation, and i think there is a place for Gods Appointed musicians to lead his people to the wells of living water..

many are called but few are chosen, and if you want to be called and chosen, it means you have to stand out from the rest, maybe a bit of training or accountability in the musical side of things would help?..

You would think that wouldn't you? But think about who Jesus chose and who God appointed to do great things. It was those who were humble enough to submit to him and it was usually those considered as 'nobodies' in the world. To be called and chosen, I think, we need to simply humble ourselves before God. It's nothing that WE do (acts or deeds) to earn anything from God, but simply a humble heart. We don't go to heaven by the things we do but because of God's grace and because we submit fully to God.

I just found this verse actually...

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 - "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

 

[=-ReveLationz-=]

You would think that wouldn't you? But think about who Jesus chose and who God appointed to do great things. It was those who were humble enough to submit to him and it was usually those considered as 'nobodies' in the world. To be called and chosen, I think, we need to simply humble ourselves before God. It's nothing that WE do (acts or deeds) to earn anything from God, but simply a humble heart. We don't go to heaven by the things we do but because of God's grace and because we submit fully to God.

I just found this verse actually...

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 - "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

You still havent answered my first question? and in reply to your post, i agree there is nothing we can do, no acts or deeds that attain salvation, but we have to "DO" certain things to attain other things from God... Obedience is an ACT.. Repentence in the dictionary is defined as the "ACT" of turning 180 degrees around in lifestyle and going the opposite way with your choices..


Also.. Read The Book of Exodus.. where it clearly states, i cant remember the exact verse, but ill find it and post it. "now moses was the most humble of all the men on the earth" (paraphrased) ...

who wrote the book of exodus according to most theologeans?


Moses!

nuff 4 now!


peaCerz

 

[keyz]

You still havent answered my first question? and in reply to your post, i agree there is nothing we can do, no acts or deeds that attain salvation, but we have to "DO" certain things to attain other things from God... Obedience is an ACT.. Repentence in the dictionary is defined as the "ACT" of turning 180 degrees around in lifestyle and going the opposite way with your choices..

What was your question? I'm sorry. Was it this?

heres another aspect? do you think if the musicians were incapable of blowing the horns that the wall of jericho would have fallen?

Well, no. How's this tie in? A lot of people know how to 'blow the horn' but many are being pushed away because they don't 'blow the horn' according to world's standards. Many people are capable of playing, but they are rejected based on what some person thinks of them. I thought it was what God thinks though...

That is true we have to obey, and yeah that is an act. Part of obeying though is being humble and submitting to God. We don't want to sit on our butts and be lazy and expect God to just point everything our way. We do want to seek him. I really couldn't see, based on God's characted, him saying to somebody wanting to worship, "Well, sorry, but since you didn't take that music course and get your BA degree for music at such and such a place you can't worship through music." What I think I mean to say is that you can try everything you can to stand out from the rest, but really all that matters is where your heart is towards God. The heart of the worshipper is the most important thing. You can't lead worship or model worship if you are nothing but a performer. That's not worship... just performance to exalt man. I do think that there are some that automatically stand out from the rest and you can see they have a gifting in music, but that's not to go and say those who don't stand out in the world can't participate in being a model for worship.

Also.. Read The Book of Exodus.. where it clearly states, i cant remember the exact verse, but ill find it and post it. "now moses was the most humble of all the men on the earth" (paraphrased) ...

who wrote the book of exodus according to most theologeans?


Moses!

He was though.. if you are you just are. You can't help it. hehe..

 

[=-ReveLationz-=]

What was your question? I'm sorry. Was it this?



Well, no. How's this tie in? A lot of people know how to 'blow the horn' but many are being pushed away because they don't 'blow the horn' according to world's standards. Many people are capable of playing, but they are rejected based on what some person thinks of them. I thought it was what God thinks though...

That is true we have to obey, and yeah that is an act. Part of obeying though is being humble and submitting to God. We don't want to sit on our butts and be lazy and expect God to just point everything our way. We do want to seek him. I really couldn't see, based on God's characted, him saying to somebody wanting to worship, "Well, sorry, but since you didn't take that music course and get your BA degree for music at such and such a place you can't worship through music." What I think I mean to say is that you can try everything you can to stand out from the rest, but really all that matters is where your heart is towards God. The heart of the worshipper is the most important thing. You can't lead worship or model worship if you are nothing but a performer. That's not worship... just performance to exalt man. I do think that there are some that automatically stand out from the rest and you can see they have a gifting in music, but that's not to go and say those who don't stand out in the world can't participate in being a model for worship.




He was though.. if you are you just are. You can't help it. hehe..

Ok, first of all, we need to clarify that i am not saying you need a degree to worship him, i am saying that you need to be able to sing in tune at very least to be a worship leader, if a person is that humble, then they wont mind being asked to sing as part of the congregation and/or choir until they have grown in there gifting/calling/desire to sing on stage.. also God says he wouldnt call someone to do something he hasnt already equiped them to do, so maybe it isnt your call to worship lead vocally if you cant sing in tune or arnt prepared to learn to do so, and until you do, its not your place!! ..

also.. Faith without works is dead, so as great as your heart might be to God, if your not even willing to submit to some form of vocal training, then your faith and belief to be a great worship leader is dead!

Humbless = completely submissive to Gods will..

it doesnt mean to not have pride in what you do,or to be a walkover. i would never ever ever discourage anyone from worshipping God, but when we are talking about leading a team of people, to lead the congregation into worship, its a completely different story..

would you let an incompetent minister "teach" your people? if he was never in the word, never praying ie; equiping himself for ministry? we are called to be disciples, and in so, always growing and getting better at what we are called to do... worship leading is as valid in its requirements of excellence, maybe one off or now and again its ok to have a tone deaf worship leader, but for the most part, its better having someone who can LEAD THE WORSHIP! lol

ill leave those thoughts with you for now, cause im fully tired and all.lol

peaCerz

(ps.. i love you guys!)

 

[keyz]

Thanks for your post. I pretty much agree with you about everything in your last post.

I agree that you don't want a tone deaf worship leader singing.. lol. But what I don't agree with is that people judge your ability to worship on the fact of your credentials (that were set by man) alone. I think that becomes a problem. Personally, for me, if anybody was to judge my ability as music performance I would probably come out on the lower side of the scale because whenever I play in a time of worship God is playing me. But yaa... there is nothing more annoying than the guitarist always buzzing strings every single chord change.

Another thing to mention... as I've opened up to God and used my music to glorify him, he has added so much to it. What I mean is that he has increased skill in myself as a musician as I've submitted my gifts over to him.

 

[=-ReveLationz-=]

I agree that you don't want a tone deaf worship leader singing.. lol. But what I don't agree with is that people judge your ability to worship on the fact of your credentials (that were set by man) alone. I think that becomes a problem. Personally, for me, if anybody was to judge my ability as music performance I would probably come out on the lower side of the scale because whenever I play in a time of worship God is playing me. But yaa... there is nothing more annoying than the guitarist always buzzing strings every single chord change.

Another thing to mention... as I've opened up to God and used my music to glorify him, he has added so much to it. What I mean is that he has increased skill in myself as a musician as I've submitted my gifts over to him.

YAY!!!!! Thats all i was getting at!!!

and about people judging your talents on ability alone?.. the way i see it, in as much as you have to be patient and grow, God always require the "leader" to be patient with the people theyre leading.. just a balance i guess.. !!!!

peaCe and God Bless!

 

[drew.dominguez]

Long story... heres the short.

There was a time when I was leaving my church to a new one, and during that time I attemped to train my replacement- problem was that one guy was flat out awful, and the other guy was a total, well... a total jherk!

 

[Gwenyfur]

So true!

At my best I'm a mediocre pianist...even at practise people wonder how in the world I wound up being the church's pianist/keyboardist....and there are times I still do heh...
But, God always gives the increase...worship service comes and there it is...the ability to play for His Glory! He's always faithful to provide music that is pleasing to not only His ears...but to those of the congregation. There is no way that I could play the pieces I play, the arrangements or the transitions and last minute substitutions if it weren't for His grace and His increase

God Bless

 

[huntertim]

Let me ask a simple question. When you get on an airplane, do want the pilot to be subpar or do want him to be his best. I believe that we have lost the concept of reallizing that we need to do what ever it is we do in excellence. Do I think you need to be professional??? No, not at all. I do feel that we need to be the best we can. Would this ladys subpar singing ability be acceptable if you were singing for the president? No it would'nt... how much more does God expect from us.

I am a Worship Pastor. I am blessed with many people that are better musicians and singers than I. I practice IN PRIVATE alot. I feel I owe it to God to be the best I can be. Many people do not practice at all during the week, so what they are doing is making their Sunday morning worship service their practice time. DONT do this.... your stealing time set aside for God and you will not experience God as you could if your full attention is focussed on God.

I have never been very popular for this kind of thinking. I come from a very free church that has a very contemporary worship service (for all of you that think I'm to "religous"). I guess all I am saying is if you can not sing or play or what ever, work on developing your talent.

Now for all of that say "but what if they have the annointing... should'nt they be allowed to sing"? Not if it is a distraction to everyone else (ouch). Thats right.... the Holy Spirit does not cause confusion and is never a destraction. The annointing comes from the Holy Spirit.

I don't appologize if this all sounds a little hard. We live in a generation that wants the easy way on everything. People want everything for nothing. Everybody wants the best of everything, but they want it handed to them (I am guitly of this). If we expect the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself in our services, but we are not willing to completly sell out, forget it.

Blessings

Tim

 

[cblack]

i think to be up leading the church in worship you need to be able to lead ie you can carry a tune or play well. it is the job of the leaders to lead the church.( obvious I know) but one cannot lead if they can not do it right themselfs. with that said there is no perfect but there does have to be a standard somewhere. just my 2 cents
Laterz,

 

[CelineDion]

If somebody sounds like a dying calf in a hail storm it will be distracting.