signs of a true apostle

Biblicist · Feb 1, 2018

Oscarr said:
My point is that if the canon of the New Testament replaces the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, which is taught widely by teachers like John MacArthur and others, then reading the New Testament would perform the same function as the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So, to get a person healed, all one has to do is to read the bits about healing from the New Testament and howzthat! The person is healed on the spot! If prophecies caused unbelievers coming into the Early Church to fall on their faces confessing that God is with them in reality, so reading the New Testament to unbelievers should perform the same function, seeing that New Testament has replaced the prophetic? I know that I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a point there nevertheless.

Oscar, this is probably my first post in maybe four months but as I check in on the occasion I found this thread, along with a number of your comments, to be of interest.

During my hiatus from CF, I have been travelling through the various Christian College libraries in my State, which number about 14, where I was initially limiting my investigations into the theological thought over the years regarding the τὸ τέλειον (“the perfect”) of 1 Cor 13:8-12. As with many things in life, now that I have widened my reference base, where I was once both pleased and content with my 15 commentaries on First Corinthians, now that it has expanded to well over 200 commentaries, this investigation has now taken on a life of its own.

To return to the main point of my post, one of the interesting outcomes of this research is that the concept of that which is perfect in 1 Cor 13:8-12 as supposedly referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture, or with the completion of the last Book of the Bible, is that this seems to be a concept that was not addressed by theologians prior to 1872 (Jamieson); this does not mean that they were not thinking along these lines but until this time no theologian (to my knowledge so far) has dared offered this as a solution to the passage and interestingly none have suggested this as even a remote possibility.

At this point of time I have 49 English commentaries on First Corinthians that were published from 1801-1900 and to discover that only a single theologian from the 19th Century has suggested the 'Canon' option (so far) in my view speaks volumes. (Insert): A number of these commentaries were translated from German sources and from a couple of French commentators, so the commentaries reflect a broad representation of not only British/Scottish and North American theologians/commentators but also those from within Germany.

The first theologian to adopt this line of thinking after 1872 appears to be McGarvey (1916) and the person who is often given the credit for popularising this notion was Warfield (1919).

It seems that the ‘Canon’ option only gained popularity around the 1950’s and 60’s and from initial readings, the first published theologian since 1919 to go along this line was DeHaan (1956). With the onset of the Charismatic Renewal, from around 1960 up until 1980, in panic, those who held dearly to the old hardcore-cessationist worldview tried to pull this “new idea” out of their deck of cards but for most people it simply fell short; so the 'Canon' option probably only had a serious run for maybe 20 years or less.

Edit: Added bold text
Edit: (Insert): A number of these commentaries were translated . . .
Edit: Typo

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Oscarr said:
The point is that the majority of healing under the ministry of Peter and Paul were of unbelievers, who, and the rest of the community around them turned to Christ. It was in the context of winning pagans for Christ that the "extraordinary miracles" that Paul did among them. There are no accounts of Christians having healing meetings just to get Christians healed. Also, the demons that were cast out were not in the Christian community but also among the pagans. This is reflected in the modern Third World where the bulk of healing and deliverance occurs among the unsaved who come to hear the gospel preached.

Modern healing crusades conducted by "apostles" are usually attended by 90% Christians who are there to get their spiritual "fix". They are inward looking hallelujah hootenannies run for self indulgent church members who have no real passion for the lost souls in their communities. Also, many of these prominent preachers have real shortcomings in personal holiness which the people do not see, but God sees, and there has been a good number of scandals where God has exposed their sin so that the body of Christ is not deceived and further damaged by these showmen. I have viewed Youtube where a street evangelist praying for unbelievers on city streets has achieved remarkable results, and that street evangelist was just an ordinary guy whose name was not mentioned at all. No great billboards with his large photos on them. No white suit waving at groups of people who fall over backwards as a result. No teaching that we are little gods. Many of the showmen who make a big display of themselves in crusades and on TV are arrogant and unteachable men who think they have something better than the common herd. They become wealthy on the mum and dad donations which many mums and dads can ill afford, but they give thinking they are giving to the work of the Lord, while their own families are deprived of things they need. What is hidden from them is the bulk of their donations are going to pay for the large mansions, business class airfares, private jets, expensive motor cars, luxury lifestyle of the showmen who are preaching a watered down gospel full of gimmicks and grandiose claims of miracles and healing that doesn't seem to happen for most who attend.

If Paul suffered sickness, that would not have been a hindrance to his ministry. He is a believer, and doesn't need to be healed to show him God's power to save his own soul. If a Christian gets sick and dies, they go to be with the Lord. If an unbeliever gets sick and dies, they go to a Christless eternity, so who really needs to be healed and saved? It is not hypocritical for Paul to heal the sick while being sick himself, because it is not Paul who is doing the healing. Jesus is doing the healing through Paul's ministry. It is like the story of the preacher who heard the story of a healing by Smith Wigglesworth where a person was instantly healed of an incurable condition before everyone. He said to the Lord, "I couldn't do that!" The Lord replied, "Neither could he." There's a lesson in that.

Looking at your explanation it made me think that tongues, speaking in other languages by the Holy Spirit was in the context of were people spoke different languages which would be a reversal of when God confused the languages.

Thank You,
Daniel

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Oscarr said:
I know one - where Nathan confronted David over his murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba.

I am having a re-think about the Word of Knowledge. There is sufficient indication in Scripture that it can be used to reveal sin in a person, because God is a holy God and He will expose willful sin in a believer to preserve the honour of His name. But the revealing must be done privately first, according to how we should correct our brothers and sisters in Christ. We go to them first, and if they will not listen, then we take another person along, and if they won't listen then, it then is made public in the church and the person is put out of the fellowship until he repents. But when he does repent, he is totally restored.

Peter had a word of knowledge about Simon the sorcerer who offered money for the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul had a word of knowledge about the official who tried to hinder Paul's sharing of the gospel to the Roman governor and the official went blind. Paul also had a word of knowledge that although they would lose the ship when it hit a large storm off Malta, no one would lose their lives.

The reason why some of these showmen TV evangelists have been exposed to public scandal was that they did not listen to someone coming to them with a word of knowledge about their hidden sin. They were too arrogant to subject themselves to the word of a "lesser mortal" and so they suffered the consequences.

So why is it that Paul speaking about the gift of prophecy in the church, that when all prophesy, an unbeliever may enter, fall on his face (not his back, mind you!) and acknowledge that God is in them in reality. Would it not be that the prophetic words contained words of knowledge about the state of their hearts and their hidden sins?

1 Corinthians 14:20-25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. 21 In the law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I am only guessing an unbeliever is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and word of knowledge in that case because prophecy is for believers.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Acts 8:9-25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
9 But there was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Samar′ia, saying that he himself was somebody great. 10 They all gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is that power of God which is called Great.” 11 And they gave heed to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samar′ia had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money![a] 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

25 Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Acts 27:27-28:5 New International Version (NIV)
The Shipwreck
27 On the fourteenth night we were still being driven across the Adriatic[a] Sea, when about midnight the sailors sensed they were approaching land. 28 They took soundings and found that the water was a hundred and twenty feet deep. A short time later they took soundings again and found it was ninety feet[c] deep. 29 Fearing that we would be dashed against the rocks, they dropped four anchors from the stern and prayed for daylight. 30 In an attempt to escape from the ship, the sailors let the lifeboat down into the sea, pretending they were going to lower some anchors from the bow. 31 Then Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 So the soldiers cut the ropes that held the lifeboat and let it drift away.

33 Just before dawn Paul urged them all to eat. “For the last fourteen days,” he said, “you have been in constant suspense and have gone without food—you haven’t eaten anything. 34 Now I urge you to take some food. You need it to survive. Not one of you will lose a single hair from his head.” 35 After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat. 36 They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves. 37 Altogether there were 276 of us on board. 38 When they had eaten as much as they wanted, they lightened the ship by throwing the grain into the sea.

39 When daylight came, they did not recognize the land, but they saw a bay with a sandy beach, where they decided to run the ship aground if they could. 40 Cutting loose the anchors, they left them in the sea and at the same time untied the ropes that held the rudders. Then they hoisted the foresail to the wind and made for the beach. 41 But the ship struck a sandbar and ran aground. The bow stuck fast and would not move, and the stern was broken to pieces by the pounding of the surf.

42 The soldiers planned to kill the prisoners to prevent any of them from swimming away and escaping. 43 But the centurion wanted to spare Paul’s life and kept them from carrying out their plan. He ordered those who could swim to jump overboard first and get to land. 44 The rest were to get there on planks or on other pieces of the ship. In this way everyone reached land safely.

Paul Ashore on Malta
28 Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. 2 The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. 3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Oscarr said:
If the New Testament was "the perfect" that was to come, how come when you quote the New Testament to unbelievers, that they don't get convicted of their sin through the power of the words, fall on their faces and turn to Christ on the spot?

And if the Old Testament Scriptures were the perfect word of God in Paul's time, why is it that he needed "extraordinary miracles" to win whole pagan communities over to Christ? All he had to do was to read the Torah to them, didn't he, in the same way that all you have to do is read the New Testament to unbelievers and whole communities of them will turn to Christ, if the New Testament has replaced the "extraordinary miracles" that the Holy Spirit did through Paul?

1 Corinthians 13:10 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete andimperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

There are other translations that use the word complete in place of perfect.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Major1 said:
Oscar, the thirteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians is the heart of Paul’s three-chapter-long discourse on spiritual gifts and the Dispensation of Grace. The Corinthians were spiritually immature (1 Corinthians 3:1-2), and they were ignorant of spiritual gifts and they were misusing and abusing them (1 Corinthians 12:1–14:40). Rather than focusing on sound doctrine, the Corinthians, like today’s charismatics, were too engaged in emotional experiences—especially the gift of tongues (refer to the 40 verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 14).

Paul wrote chapters 12-14 to show them that there Christian lives were not functioning properly, and if they did not correct their thinking, when the spiritual gifts would fall away, their Christian lives would fall apart!

Ephesians 3:1-4 explains:......
“[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)….”

We learn the knowledge God revealed first to Paul, by reading his epistles of Romans through Philemon.

“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

Verses 9 and 10 again: “[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once Paul wrote the epistle of 2 Timothy, the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows.

The NT canon was not compiled until 399 AD at a Council.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
The NT canon was not compiled until 399 AD at a Council.

That's interesting, because right up to that time, the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were commonplace in the Church, according to the writing of the principal Church fathers.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Major1 said:
I do not know who anyone saw, but I do know that they did not see the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have read the Bible and it says that the next time Jesus is seen will be a the battle of Armageddon where He comes riding a great white horse.

I lost the context of this, what is it? thank you

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

lamb7 said:
Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worldsWho being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Paul was speaking yo the Hebrews and Prophets were a big part of the Word of God. Seems the prophets were all Jewish too?

We now have the Word and it is closed. Jesus was the Word made flesh...

Eph 2:20 speaks of the OT or Hebrew Prophets, thus they were all Jewish.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Oscarr said:
My point is that if the canon of the New Testament replaces the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, which is taught widely by teachers like John MacArthur and others, then reading the New Testament would perform the same function as the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So, to get a person healed, all one has to do is to read the bits about healing from the New Testament and howzthat! The person is healed on the spot! If prophecies caused unbelievers coming into the Early Church to fall on their faces confessing that God is with them in reality, so reading the New Testament to unbelievers should perform the same function, seeing that New Testament has replaced the prophetic? I know that I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but there is a point there nevertheless.

I have no point, just remembered...

Isaiah 55:11 Good News Translation (GNT)
11 So also will be the word that I speak—
it will not fail to do what I plan for it;
it will do everything I send it to do.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
1 Corinthians 14:20-25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. 21 In the law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I am only guessing an unbeliever is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and word of knowledge in that case because prophecy is for believers.

Gordon Fee gives the best explanation of tongues being a sign for unbelievers. He says that it is a negative sign for them because it signals that the judgment of God is just around the corner for them, in the same way that the foreign language of the Assyrians were a sign to Israel and Judah that judgment was just around the corner for them.

There is another sign, mainly for believers, that judgment is just around the corner, and is already active in our societies: The alarming rise in crime, prostitution, homosexuality, greed, the occult, false cults, and the infection of false doctrine in our churches. This is not the devil, this is God giving up our societies to its sins. This is a sign to believers that they need to get going and start really praying for revival instead of going every Sunday and sitting like wooden Indians in their churches, lazily observing the theatrical performances from the front.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
I have no point, just remembered...

Isaiah 55:11 Good News Translation (GNT)
11 So also will be the word that I speak—
it will not fail to do what I plan for it;
it will do everything I send it to do.

Trouble is, these days, God is not speaking it. Powerless Christians are trying to quote it without success.

lamb7 · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
Eph 2:20 speaks of the OT or Hebrew Prophets, thus they were all Jewish.

Ok I thought so.... thank for that scripture. So even if there were some today I feel they would be Jewish? I am assuming... but the 2 witnesses to come will be Jewish I think?

lamb7 · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
Looking at your explanation it made me think that tongues, speaking in other languages by the Holy Spirit was in the context of were people spoke different languages which would be a reversal of when God confused the languages.

Thank You,
Daniel

What is cool about that is it was like was God lifting that curse somewhat of the tower of Babel to now include Gentiles by the Jews performing signs and wonders. Neat!

lamb7 · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
1 Corinthians 14:20-25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. 21 In the law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I am only guessing an unbeliever is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and word of knowledge in that case because prophecy is for believers.

Would it be safe to say the unbelievers here were Jews? God is always reaching for them His chosen people. Even though they were blinded? I always wondered... hmmm

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

lamb7 said:
Ok I thought so.... thank for that scripture. So even if there were some today I feel they would be Jewish? I am assuming... but the 2 witnesses to come will be Jewish I think?

That is what I read.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

lamb7 said:
Would it be safe to say the unbelievers here were Jews? God is always reaching for them His chosen people. Even though they were blinded? I always wondered... hmmm

One would have to look up Corinth.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 2, 2018

Biblicist said:
Oscar, this is probably my first post in maybe four months but as I check in on the occasion I found this thread, along with a number of your comments, to be of interest.

During my hiatus from CF, I have been travelling through the various Christian College libraries in my State, which number about 14, where I was initially limiting my investigations into the theological thought over the years regarding the τὸ τέλειον (“the perfect”) of 1 Cor 13:8-12. As with many things in life, now that I have widened my reference base, where I was once both pleased and content with my 15 commentaries on First Corinthians, now that it has expanded to well over 200 commentaries, this investigation has now taken on a life of its own.

To return to the main point of my post, one of the interesting outcomes of this research is that the concept of that which is perfect in 1 Cor 13:8-12 as supposedly referring to the completion of the Canon of Scripture, or with the completion of the last Book of the Bible, is that this seems to be a concept that was not addressed by theologians prior to 1872 (Jamieson); this does not mean that they were not thinking along these lines but until this time no theologian (to my knowledge so far) has dared offered this as a solution to the passage and interestingly none have suggested this as even a remote possibility.

At this point of time I have 49 English commentaries on First Corinthians that were published from 1801-1900 and to discover that only a single theologian from the 19th Century has suggested the 'Canon' option (so far) in my view speaks volumes. (Insert): A number of these commentaries were translated from German sources and from a couple of French commentators, so the commentaries reflect a broad representation of not only British/Scottish and North American theologians/commentators but also those from within Germany.

The first theologian to adopt this line of thinking after 1872 appears to be McGarvey (1916) and the person who is often given the credit for popularising this notion was Warfield (1919).

It seems that the ‘Canon’ option only gained popularity around the 1950’s and 60’s and from initial readings, the first published theologian since 1919 to go along this line was DeHaan (1956). With the onset of the Charismatic Renewal, from around 1960 up until 1980, in panic, those who held dearly to the old hardcore-cessationist worldview tried to pull this “new idea” out of their deck of cards but for most people it simply fell short; so the 'Canon' option probably only had a serious run for maybe 20 years or less.

Edit: Added bold text
Edit: (Insert): A number of these commentaries were translated . . .
Edit: Typo

A little research you may find of interest,
Church Fathers on "which is perfect has come"

Biblicist · Feb 2, 2018

Daniel Marsh said:
A little research you may find of interest,
Church Fathers on "which is perfect has come"

Thankyou kindly for that link.

Sometime last year I came across a subscription article/thesis [which means that I cannot re-publish it] that was produced in the late 1990's where the researcher had taken a look into the views of the early churchmen; what surprised me, was that according to his research he did not come across any comments from the men of this period who supported, or who even knew about, the view that the perfect somehow refers to the Canon of Scripture. Others have certainly said much the same (including A.C. Thiselton, 2000) but his was the most comprehensive. This motivated me to take things a bit further.

In my travels through the thirteen Bible College libraries that I have access to within my State, I did not come across any support for the Canon viewpoint until I opened the 171st commentary, even then, it was only an unknown small commentary that was published back in 1964 - it's the only copy that I have found within all the University/College libraries so far.

My goal was to produce a free PDF document so that others could benefit from my research and analysis of the material and so far, from the 1700's up until now, I have produced summaries that support the historical viewpoint that the perfect refers to time after the return of Christ from 228 commentators, who are from all forms of ecclesiastical backgrounds. As my work may turn into a Master's thesis it means that I cannot release the material until I decide which way to go.

So far, I have found seven commentators who say that the perfect refers directly to the Canon and another eight who say that it refers to the time when the Church matured without any direct reference to 1 Cor 13:8-12.

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