Signs in the sun and moon...

[BABerean2]

When we do a close study, and dig into the Greek, we find that Matthew 24 and Joel 3 use one Greek word for darkness - a word that just means a normal darkness.
But the Greek word used in Joel 2:31 and at the 6th seal is a different Greek word with a different meaning: that like is removed to leave an abnormal darkness - a darkness like is seldom seen - NOT normal.

Hopefully, you realize that Joel 2:31 was originally written in Hebrew, and was later translated to Greek.
Therefore, your argument falls apart.

Can you explain why those at the end of Revelation chapter 6 are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, if the Lamb is not present at that point in time?

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Do you notice anything about the characters found at the end of chapter 6 and the characters found in chapter 19?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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[iamlamad]

Hopefully, you realize that Joel 2:31 was originally written in Hebrew, and was later translated to Greek.
Therefore, your argument falls apart.

Can you explain why those at the end of Revelation chapter 6 are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, if the Lamb is not present at that point in time?

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Do you notice anything about the characters found at the end of chapter 6 and the characters found in chapter 19?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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I am wrong, in Joel it was HEBREW words. I will correct that.
My argument stands firm. You will have to do better than that!

They are hiding because they FEAR Him, knowing that THE DAY has begun. There are no words there proving they see Him. Perhaps they see the Father on the thone - but maybe they imagine that. "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" They are just imagining That God is angry because they KNOW the DAy of the Lord is His wrath.

Verse 6:15 and verse 19:18 are only to show that all levels of humans are included. Could they be the same people? No, those in chapter 19 are the soldiers of the armies of many countries that all come to Israel to wipe Israel off the map.

 

[dougangel]

Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?

That is the prophetic language of Judgement coming on the Israel people.

The problem is we are not accustomed to dealing with such symbolic language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, etc., without thinking literally. However to the Jews, this was not a new language. Matthew’s Jewish readers were certainly well versed in the sort of symbolic language and imagery and understood the meaning. The sun, darkening and the moon don't give its light; and the stars falling from the sky, represents the ceasing of a kingdom."

The prophet Isaiah is a good example of how this symbolic language is used in Jewish thought. This type of apocalyptic, figurative language, was used to describe the desolation and the judgment of God by invading forces. Take for example the prophesied fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539 BC.

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil..." (Isaiah 13:9-11)."

This is applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened (9,10).

Whenever there was an overthrow of the rulers and authorities of a nation, it was represented by the sun, moon, and stars not give their light.

In the judgments of God, through all the prophets, the heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like represented the overthrow of governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Joel 2:10-11 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness. The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai 2:6-7 to speak of political overturns. "For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and the dry land; 'and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts.

Notice how the shaking of heaven and earth are associated, with the overthrow of thrones and kingdoms; and the strength of the Gentiles. Haggai 2:21-23 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying: 'I will shake heaven and earth. I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms; I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms. I will overthrow the chariots And those who ride in them; The horses and their riders shall come down, Every one by the sword of his brother

"The destruction of the Jews by Antioch Epiphanes, is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. (Daniel 8:10)

And further note Amos 8:9, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day." This had reference to the northern kingdom.

Now note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt: "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-7). This applied to Egypt, as mentioned in verse. 2, 12, 16.

In other contexts, when the stars fall, they fall to the earth, a sure sign of temporal judgment (Isaiah 14:12; And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.

In Isaiah 13:6-13 we see that destruction of the heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire.

Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Nineveh (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703 BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572 BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11. There is no question about when these things would happen. We have literature from the Old Testament that we must read figuratively unless the word demand otherwise.

When Jesus said, "Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken (Matthew 24:29)." No doubt it is the overthrow and abolition of the Mosaic dispensation, or old covenant; the destruction of the Jewish governments, governors, dominions and political states.

In Bible figurative language, when the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken refers to governments and rulers.

The writer of Hebrews borrowed, the language from Haggai 2:6-7 and writes, Hebrews 12:27-28 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

The Jewish readers were certainly well versed in this symbolic language and imagery. Matthews aim is to stare up the memory of his Jewish audience about what was written in their Old Testament scriptures. When the ruling authorities of the nation of Israel passed away, it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky, the moon did not give its light and the passing of the old heavens and earth etc.

So Mathew 24 is talking about Israel going into darkness and ceasing being a country controlled by the Israelites. In which it did around 70 AD.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Choose Wisely]

T


My conclusion then is that Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 bookend the END of the 70th week, while Joel 2:31 and the 6th seal bookend the BEGINNING of the 70th week.

What we can prove by scripture:

At the start of the “tribulation” or 70th week:

Solar eclipse – blood moon – meteor shower (Falling stars falling to the earth) NOT at the same time.

AFTER the tribulation:

Total or annular solar eclipse (stars dark) Falling stars

Sun and moon go dark: same time

Joel 210, 3:15, Matthew 24, Mark 13:24

Stars withdraw their shining: Joel 2:10 and 3:15.

Stars fall from heaven: Matthew 24:29, Mark 13.24

Your conclusion is wrong. All you have to do is read some of the responses to determine that. Try taking a round peg and place it in round hole. All this pounding square pegs into round holes has you totally confused.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Conclusion: these signs are NOT the same: the signs of Joel 2:31 and Rev. 6 are the same, and the signs of Matthew 24 and Joel 2:10 and Joel 3 are the same.

One sign - with a blood moon - will be the sign of the Day of the Lord.
The other sign - with sun and moon darkened - will be the sign of His coming.

These signs will be seen over 7 years apart.

Problem is that the sign of his coming occurs before the day of the Lord. The gathering that you see in Matthew 24 is the great multitude that you see in Rev 7. So your conclusion is wrong.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Then there is the moon. How would ANYONE know of the moon is red unless they see it? Therefore the 6th seal moon is a seen moon - and probably a lunar eclipse.

Again, your conclusions can easily be proven as wrong. You say.......how can anyone know the moon is red unless they see it. Simple. There were recently 4 blood moons. We knew the moons would be blood moons before they occurred. There were even books written about the blood moons before they happened.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Rev 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Isa 34:4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig

Also
Rev 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Waterwerx]

Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?

I personally don't think its going to be any kind of eclipse like what we see that occurs between the sun, earth, and moon. One of the significant things about these celestial phenomena coming to pass in those times is that it will occur when it normally would not.
Luke 21:25-26,
"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken."
Isaiah 24:19-20,
"The earth is violently broken, The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy upon it, and it will fall, and not rise again."

You have in Revelation the sun turning black as sackcloth and the moon into blood in the 6th seal, and then in the 4th trumpet the light from the sun, moon, and stars is reduced by one-third. This tells me there's a lot of debris and moisture being displaced into and beyond the region of earth's atmosphere which eventually disperses all around the globe and reduces the luminosity of the heavens. By the time you get to the 4th vial/bowl, you have people being scorched by the sun since the atmosphere won't be blocking sunlight as it should.
Jesus said that the powers of the heavens will be shaken. He does not say the powers "in" the heavens will be shaken. From the way I see it, the powers of the heavens could be understood to be gravity, electromagnetism, strong & weak nuclear forces, etc., since these things are prevalent throughout the universe and are basically the glue that holds everything together. When these things are upset or thrown out of balance on and around the earth, then you have what Isaiah describes in 24:19-20.
Its no wonder that there's going to be a number of great earthquakes, the seas & its waves roaring, men scorched, darkness, scarcity, etc.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Rev. 7 begins a new vision that will go back in time to clarify what happens before that time of such as never was happened and ended.
after this...after these - as in that other vision/s ended, a new one now begins

Rev 7:1

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

/after - as in not continuing the story of the 6th seal any longer, but telling a new story

the wind - as in time for the whirlwind that will scatter Israel

I find it interesting that you would pick up on this. I think you are correct that it is a new vision. Everyone thinks that the purpose of this chapter is to seal the 144, 000 so they can go through the wrath of God without being hurt by the locust. The fact that it is a new vision lets us see that the 144, 000 are sealed during the tribulation period..........and I note that you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Choose Wisely]

Rev. 8 is going back in time...to tell the story of the seven trumpets.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Back in time.......during the tribulation?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Choose Wisely]

Rev. 6 - great tribulation ends
a vision ends
.

Correct

Rev. 7 a new vision- people come out of great tribulation
.

Correct

Rev. 8 7th seal is opened - then we hear of the already done trumpets that sounded- ending the great tribulation
.

This is not correct. The seventh seal begins the wrath of God that was seen coming at the end of the sixth seal.
The tribulation is over and the wrath of God has begun with the opening of the 7th seal.