Sign of the Cross

[MariaRegina]

I was always wondering.

When the Oriental Orthodox Priest starts the Divine Liturgy does he hold the Gospel book up in the air and say, "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

And when he sings this doxology to begin the Divine Liturgy, does he use the Gospel book to make the sign of the Cross: First elevating the Gospel book, then lowering it, then moviing it to his left and finally to his right?

This is the action of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Priest when he begins the Divine Liturgy.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Erini...

I appreciated your clarification of what was clearly a misrepresentation of the OO belief (the who "mingling" thing). I'm not sure why some saw that as your overstepping the bounds. Sorry about that. I would have posted something, but it was closed to keep the peace.

John

 

[minasoliman]

Hey, just came from West Virginia, and I skimmed through some of the new posts. My views:

1. Doing the sign of the cross in the case of right to left or left to right has no basis of true tradition. In my humble opinion, there is no right or wrong way to do the sign of the cross. In fact, while RC's and OO's do it similarly, EO's and Assyrian Church does it the same, being that the Assyrian Church has been so isolated from the Byzantine empire and all. So by this fact, it seems to me that both ways to cross have ancient roots, and none of them would be "wrong."

2. I do not mind an EO debating anything in this thread (perhaps any Christian at all). I really hate these rules, being an OO myself who wants to allow debates here. I don't think there's any OO that would be "annoyed" at debaters from outside the OO church, as opposed to the EO's who were annoyed.

God bless.

 

[minasoliman]

Dear Aria,

Unlike the EO church, the OO's are DIVERSE with so many different rites. So as a Copt, I can only answer what Copts do. In the Coptic Orthodox church, truthfully, I don't see those practices being done in our liturgies by the priest. I can give you some other practices that use a "golden" gospel, which is held mostly by altar deacons (with a small "d") when I get the chance. Right now, I have to go to sleep.

Good night.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Aria,

Unlike the EO church, the OO's are DIVERSE with so many different rites. So as a Copt, I can only answer what Copts do. In the Coptic Orthodox church, truthfully, I don't see those practices being done in our liturgies by the priest. I can give you some other practices that use a "golden" gospel, which is held mostly by altar deacons (with a small "d") when I get the chance. Right now, I have to go to sleep.

Good night.

The EO Gospel book is gilded in gold and precious jewels. I hope I am using the correct words. But the cover is gold metal and is beautifully adorned with an icon of Christ.

 

[villoththoma]

sincere EOs who come here with goodwill and fellowship and honest questions are always welcome...

 

[MariaRegina]

Why do these EOs come into our forums and flood our threads with uninteresting and unrelated bits of infos about their church.
If we would want to know anything about the EO,.we would come to your forum..

But sincere EOs who come here with goodwill and fellowship and honest questions are always welcome...

I am just responding to the previous thread when he mentioned a golden Gospel book.

Is your golden Gospel book also adorned with precious jewels and an Icon of Christ? Is it the Resurrection Icon on one side and the Crucifixion on the other? I cannot remember. In the EO church, we only get to kiss it during Matins in the Greek Church.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if our practices are similar to yours, nothing more.

I am a linguist so I am very interested in the OO churches.

We have an Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles that I would love to see but their web site has been messed up and I cannot get their address nor phone number. My sister in law wants to go visit there also.

 

[villoththoma]

The EO ppl,.especially the Greek and Russian ones,.i think, associate their faith more with their imperial,national histories,.. tend to think in terms more of an earthly empire of Christianity,.......i have often seen them even quote the military victories of their kings in matters of faith....
Hence a lot of pomp,material wealth,glitter,..are found in their churches,...though not as far as the catholics do...

I think they in some way try to combine materialism with spirituality,..(the Chalcedonian position of twin natures they take,may have something to do with it)....and often seem to be having more of a western outlook than us in matters of faith.(luckily they still havent completely lost all of their oriental ways)


The OO churches even though maybe more impressive and more attractive in terms of antiquity and variety,...take care to be modest in certain respects.....OO has a very Oriental outlook,one of humble ,yet heavenly worship.
Also icons are not be found on the crucifixes..(read the thread on the differences between OO crucifix and that of the EO&catholics)
No,aria,...there is no icon on the Holy Gospel as well..(ie not in the Indian Orthodox church)...i think it is not there in other OO churches too.

 

[erinipassi]

Hi Aria,

Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox Forum

Your question is valid, but perhaps it is best answered in a new thread and that way we can answer your question in more detail, I have started a new Thread for you called "Aria's Question- Golden Gospel".

love and blessings
erini

 

[minasoliman]

Dear Villoththoma,

Why do you continue to talk about EO and imperialism when it has nothing to do with the topic? Please, some people can take this as disrespectful, perhaps even confusion, since it has nothing to do with the topic. Let us try to be mindful of what we write, especially with relevance to the topic.

I like to add that it would be nice to share and find out what EO practices are, even if not in an EO forum. Again, I don't EVEN mind debates. Plus, I feel the golden gospel Aria was talking about had some relavence to a certain sidetrack of a topic, which was quite interesting, and I personally thank Aria and wish her to share more of her thoughts and knowledge.

God bless you, brother.

Mina

 

[villoththoma]

Dear minasoliman,

I admire your good spirit of discussions and your open mindedness.
I think i should continue to write what i feel,this is the OO forum,...this is only where i get the freedom to do that.I couldnt do this in an EO or RC forum.

If you look closely you will find who diverted from the topic.

and dear friend,i do not think we should appease our EO brethren to the point of questioning our own freedom of expression......
especially since we the OO are sometimes not even allowed to post our replies /corrections to the disrespectful & distorting comments about the OO in the EO forum....(and i beleive it is not the EO there who happn to be behind this..)

This is my opinion,and noone should take it personal.
I apologize to any EO,if my any of my comments were disrespectful,....just voicing my opinions,...sorry if the words used were inappropriate.

but if any non-OO should come here,it should be the EO first,our closest relatives in faith... the EO brethren are always welcome in this forum,to learn more about their Old Oriental brethren,..to share fellowship,..for earnest question,..and even discussions,...most people in this forum like minasoliman are very lenient and open minded and even tolerate discussions and debates,.unlike in most other forums.

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi Aria,

Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox Forum

Your question is valid, but perhaps it is best answered in a new thread and that way we can answer your question in more detail, I have started a new Thread for you called "Aria's Question- Golden Gospel".

love and blessings
erini

Thanks

I did mention that the Eastern Orthodox Priest raises the Gospel book and uses it to make the sign of the Cross: Up Down Left Right. This is done after the preparation of the Gifts just prior to the Liturgy of the Word.
But in this case he is not facing the congregation, but his back is to the congregation as he is facing East.

I did notice that your Liturgy (the Coptic one) is similar -- I have been to the large Coptic Church in the San Fernando Valley for their Divine Liturgy and I could follow along nicely. There are quite a few Coptic Orthodox who frequent our Divine Liturgies in the Eastern Orthodox Church. .. and we are not hostile to each other.

So, frankly, the hostility seen in here by a few posters is strange to me.

So I was on topic. The Orthodox Priests do bless us from Left to Right and they do start the Divine Liturgy by lifting up the Gospel Book and saying the doxology from Left to Right again. In fact, when I mentioned this to the Orthodox Priest ... he stopped, looked puzzled, and then made the gesture just to make sure that I was right and said, "You're right."

 

[erinipassi]

Hi Aria,

I refer to your comment:

So, frankly, the hostility seen in here by a few posters is strange to me.

This all started actually with some Eastern Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox Forum calling us Heretics and not Orthodox.

Frankly speaking the hostility that we saw in the Eastern Orthodox Forum is so strange to us, that it has overwhelmed us. Imagine if the Oriental Orthodox started calling the Eastern Orthodox heretics and not Orthodox, how would you feel? Since you visit the Eastern Orthodox Forum, you would have seen several times how Maximus and other people like him calling us heretics with "pagan practices" which was highly offensive to us. This started last year when some Eastern Orthodox started to call us this way. I've included a copy of my reply to John, which I posted in this thread, p. 4, so that you would understand how we feel.

love and blessings
erini

Hi John,

Please don't take our frustrations personal. Villoththoma, like many of us, is understandably upset about the way Eastern Orthodox sees us as "unorthodox" despite the Eastern Orthodox have actually received many of their Orthodox traditions from the Oriental Orthodox. For example, Monasticism, The Creed which was influenced by St. Athanasius, the dates of Resurrection, etc....all of these are things that the Eastern Orthodox has received from the Oriental Orthodox and if you would like proof of it we can provide it.

But the real issue is, John, that many of us can't stand hypocracy that is coming from some of the Eastern Orthodox. Like for example Maximus sees fit to defend the filoque because he says we need to "understand what the Catholic church actually teaches", yet he won't apply this same principle with the Oriental Orthodox...don't you think it sounds hypocritical even to you?

And how many times has our messages been deleted from the Eastern Orthodox Forum when we have tried to clarify misrepresentations of our beliefs or have defended our beliefs???? Don't you think if you were in our position you would get so angry and hurt about it, just like you are feeling upset now?

I thank you for always being a friend to the Oriental Orthodox and we value your friendship very much. At this stage don't be suprised by the level of high frustration and hurt that is coming from the Oriental Orthodox people in reaction to what is said in the Eastern Orthodox Forum.

love and blessings
erini

 

[CopticGirl]

I definately agree with you erini.

There were several Eastern Orthodox who told me I was not "Orthodox" and that we are heretics.

I even remember simply asking a question, and someone responded, and I quote:

Does anyone have a brick handy, I'd like to bash it over my head.

This was the response to a ligitimate question I had.

While Maximius may seem like the the ring leader, he certainly is not the only one either.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[minasoliman]

So I was on topic. The Orthodox Priests do bless us from Left to Right and they do start the Divine Liturgy by lifting up the Gospel Book and saying the doxology from Left to Right again. In fact, when I mentioned this to the Orthodox Priest ... he stopped, looked puzzled, and then made the gesture just to make sure that I was right and said, "You're right."

Lol...that's interesting...I can imagine my father in confession doing the same when recalling directions.

Thanks for that tidbit.

God bless.

Mina

PS you got me writing in your color...grrrr

 

[minasoliman]

I definately agree with you erini.

There were several Eastern Orthodox who told me I was not "Orthodox" and that we are heretics.

I even remember simply asking a question, and someone responded, and I quote:



This was the response to a ligitimate question I had.

While Maximius may seem like the the ring leader, he certainly is not the only one either.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Well, there's one very simple solution. "Do unto others as you want others to do unto you." Acting out like some EO's there to be applied to EO's who post here only seperates us further, and doesn't make us any much Christian in our welcoming love. (I even don't complain about anyone debating here, which is what I wish can happen in TAW when I share my facts.)

God bless.

 

[MariaRegina]

I don't join in those debates as I do have some friends in the Coptic Church.

 

[Irish Melkite]

We have an Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles that I would love to see but their web site has been messed up and I cannot get their address nor phone number. My sister in law wants to go visit there also.

Elizabeth (Aria),

There are actually 2 Ethiopian Orthodox Churches in LA

Virgin Mary Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Orthodox Church at 4544 Compton Ave. (tel. (323) 234-5828). Map and liturgical schedule

Saint Mary's Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church at 5707 Shenandoah St. (tel. (310) 338-0021), Map and liturgical schedule. Note that, when using a mouse to navigate links on Saint Mary's website, a bit of manuvering is required, as the alignment is a tad unusual for some reason.

Saint Tekle Haimanot Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is not presently functioning, from what I last knew, although efforts have been underway for a while to revive what was the first Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church in LA.

Many years,

Neil

 

[schjon]

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!
The Eastern Orthodox sign of the cross comes from similar origins to the Oriental Orthodox. The difference being that the priest signs left to right (darkness to light) and the faithful sign right to left to put on the cross given to them. Eastern Orthodox theology is very similar to OO as most originated from OO.
As we study more texts and have open communication with OO, we realize that we are much the same. We believe in the same things Christ was God and Man. Our definition of what a nature was (at the time) were different. The OO believe Jesus was God and Man in one Nature. EO Believe Jesus was God and Man in one person. The words person and nature were the underlying separations. We desire to reunite the EO and OO churches to become one again. There are some bishops who do not desire this union and with prayer, we pray that they will see the truth.