Siddur

[Desert Rose]

Until Hadassah mentioned it I had completely forgotten that Artscroll even made a Sephardic Siddur. I ought to get one myself.

I would choose it because those transliterations (if they have them) would sound more familiar, and I think eventually the accent of Ashkenazi Hebrew will begin to wane with the nation of Israel adopting the Sephardic accent as "official". However, I guess there is always the idea that a Scotsman will never lose his accent. Doesn't matter I guess, except I know Israeli Jews who cannot understand a Torah being read in an Ashkenazi accent.

Because you are in the USA, it is much more common for you to be familiar with the Ashkenazi accent, so I suppose your siddur of choice would be in accord with that. Oy oy oy.

you reminded me
... a few years back newspaper MAariv had some kind of anniversary and the weekend edition Sof Shavua posted a really cool summary of interesting people's answers to a question "israeli is ... "?
among others " an israeli is an ashkenaz who doesnt know yiddish and a separd who can't pronounce deep throat sounds"

 

[anisavta]

I think it all depends on if you were raised saying ADANOY or ADANOEYE as pronounciation. And is it Bet or Beth.

 

[ChavaK]

you reminded me
... a few years back newspaper MAariv had some kind of anniversary and the weekend edition Sof Shavua posted a really cool summary of interesting people's answers to a question "israeli is ... "?
among others " an israeli is an ashkenaz who doesnt know yiddish and a separd who can't pronounce deep throat sounds"

LOL!!

 

[ContraMundum]

I think it all depends on if you were raised saying ADANOY or ADANOEYE as pronounciation. And is it Bet or Beth.

Or more specifically bet or beis, aleph bet or aleph beis, tav or sav, emet or emes, "lonu et torato" or "loynu es toroso", etc.

you reminded me
... a few years back newspaper MAariv had some kind of anniversary and the weekend edition Sof Shavua posted a really cool summary of interesting people's answers to a question "israeli is ... "?
among others " an israeli is an ashkenaz who doesnt know yiddish and a separd who can't pronounce deep throat sounds"

That is pretty funny. I wonder how long it will take before the idea that an Israeli can be Ashkenazi or a Sephardic will disappear? They are distinctive diaspora terms, really. By then one will think that someone is just "Israeli" and everyone will speak properly.

 

[ContraMundum]

I go to an Ashkenazi shul, but we use the Artscroll Sephardi siddur.
Ever since the shul was founded- almost a 100 years ago-it's used
Sephardic siddurim. No one knows seems to know why. At home I
use the Artscroll nusach Ashkenaz.

"No one seems to know why". LOL Now...if I were a bit more superstitious/mystical, I would say that it is because HaShem wanted to prepare your shule for Aliyah.

 

[ChavaK]

Now...if I were a bit more superstitious/mystical, I would say that it is because HaShem wanted to prepare your shule for Aliyah.

Hey, could be. We've actually have had quite a few people (given the size of the shul) make aliyah. We have a family leaving this week.
Nothing like an Ashkenaz shul using a Sephard siddur, with Ashkenaz
pronunciation.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hey, could be. We've actually have had quite a few people (given the size of the shul) make aliyah. We have a family leaving this week.
Nothing like an Ashkenaz shul using a Sephard siddur, with Ashkenaz
pronunciation.

You're on the east coast I assume? Given that so many on that side of the planet are from Eastern Europe it does rather baffle me about that. Perhaps the shule was founded by Jews from elsewhere (Morroco, Spain/Mexico, Iran or something?) and with the immgration of the 20thC the shule became populated by Eastern Europeans?

 

[ChavaK]

You're on the east coast I assume? Given that so many on that side of the planet are from Eastern Europe it does rather baffle me about that. Perhaps the shule was founded by Jews from elsewhere (Morroco, Spain/Mexico, Iran or something?) and with the immgration of the 20thC the shule became populated by Eastern Europeans?

It was founded by Ashkenazi, so go figure. The only answer I ever got was that the founders thought the Sephard siddur was more "mystical" and they liked that. It could be something as simple as they originally had access to free (or cheap) Sephard siddurim and just stuck with them later on. No one seems to know.....
one of lifes great mysteries

 

[Desert Rose]

..... I wonder how long it will take before the idea that an Israeli can be Ashkenazi or a Sephardic will disappear?

Interesting question… Who knows. Society becomes more cosmololitan and more agnostic, that’s for sure,but I think because physical appearance is different, it will be seen as distinct for long time...

By then one will think that someone is just "Israeli" and everyone will speak properly.

Done! properly is the norm. Same Maariv also identifies a sabra as "one who in every sentence has at least one word in Tzahalit ( army slang) , one grammatical error and two words in a foreign language… "

 

[Hadassah]

Out of curiosity, why'd you choos the Sephardic siddur?

I chose it for the flow of reading. To me, hearing Hebrew - sounds more like what I saw readily in the Sephardic siddur than the Ashkenazi. DH was also more comfortable with the pronunciation, and he's German. . . go figure.
Spanish was my first "second language", so it seemed more comfortable to slide right into that. Most times I've ever heard Hebrew, it was with a more Sephardi pronunciation than Ashkenazi.

 

[ContraMundum]

The only answer I ever got was that the founders thought the Sephard siddur was more "mystical" and liked that.

Ok...now that would be worth looking into...any examples given?

 

[ChavaK]

Ok...now that would be worth looking into...any examples given?

No, I actually asked this close to 40 years ago, so don't remember the conversation, but I think someone was just winging the answer and didn't really know. I asked someone else about the mystical component, and they just shrugged and said they didn't think so, but didn't give an answer. I never thought to ask about it after that, and all the "old guard" has long died off, so it will for ever remain a mystery I think.

 

[banish'd]

The reason Easter is different is because it commemorates a single event in time that is connected not to days of the year or festive occasions but to a first day of the week resurrection- it must fall on a Sunday, hence the variations between calendars.

For me- it's a relatively easy question to answer: celebrate Pesach according to the Jewish calendar and other religious events according to the church calendar (neither calendar is "exactly right" anyway as both have changed a lot in history) This preserves the timing of both Pesach and the first day resurrection.

ContraMundum,

According to this link, Pope Gregory fixed the calendar problem by simply dropping ten days out of the calendar. On Thursday, October 4, 1582, the next day, Friday, should have been October 5, but Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies. Were the days of the week confused? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday etc. The same seventh day remained and the weekly cycle was not disturbed in the least. When we keep the seventh day on Saturday, we observe the same day Jesus kept, and Luke 4:16 tells us Jesus did this every week.

Here is a link for reference Has The Calendar Changed The True Sabbath Day?

So, there has been no loss in the order of the days of the week. They have, by the account of all reputable theologians, remained in the same order since creation.

Okay, here is where I loose it:

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that ye brought the omer of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete; even unto the morrow after the seventh week shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall present a new meal-offering unto the LORD." (Leviticus 23:15-16)

The Jews always start "Firstfruits" (morrow) the day after the sabbath onSunday, so "Firstfruits" is always on Easter Sunday. Jesus is mentioned in the New Testiment as the, "Firstfruits" quite a few times.
Notice that the days between the Passover and Firstfruits vary, and the Catholic Holy Thursday Seder is anchored to 3 days before Easter Sunday. Last year (2009) was a year when Passover did fall on Holy Thursday:

2009
Passover began at sundown on Thursday, April 7, 2009
Firstfruits began at sundown on Saturday, April 11, 2009

2010
Passover beings at sundown on Sunday, March 28, 2010
Firstfruits begins at sundown on Saturday, April 3, 2010

2011
Passover beings at sundown on Sunday, April 17, 2011
Firstfruits begins at sundown on Saturday, April 23, 2011

Matthew 27:51-54
1 Corinthians 15:20 --- 26

 

[ContraMundum]

ContraMundum,

According to this link, Pope Gregory fixed the calendar problem by simply dropping ten days out of the calendar. On Thursday, October 4, 1582, the next day, Friday, should have been October 5, but Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies. Were the days of the week confused? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday etc. The same seventh day remained and the weekly cycle was not disturbed in the least. When we keep the seventh day on Saturday, we observe the same day Jesus kept, and Luke 4:16 tells us Jesus did this every week.

Here is a link for reference Has The Calendar Changed The True Sabbath Day?

So, there has been no loss in the order of the days of the week. They have, by the account of all reputable theologians, remained in the same order since creation.

I wasn't terribly impressed by the article....it didn't convince me of anything, actually. But we are free to believe by faith that nothing has changed, but it isn't hard to work out that calendars change.

Okay, here is where I loose it:

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that ye brought the omer of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete; even unto the morrow after the seventh week shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall present a new meal-offering unto the LORD." (Leviticus 23:15-16)

The Jews always start "Firstfruits" (morrow) the day after the sabbath onSunday, so "Firstfruits" is always on Easter Sunday. Jesus is mentioned in the New Testiment as the, "Firstfruits" quite a few times.
Notice that the days between the Passover and Firstfruits vary, and the Catholic Holy Thursday Seder is anchored to 3 days before Easter Sunday. Last year (2009) was a year when Passover did fall on Holy Thursday:

2009
Passover began at sundown on Thursday, April 7, 2009
Firstfruits began at sundown on Saturday, April 11, 2009

2010
Passover beings at sundown on Sunday, March 28, 2010
Firstfruits begins at sundown on Saturday, April 3, 2010

2011
Passover beings at sundown on Sunday, April 17, 2011
Firstfruits begins at sundown on Saturday, April 23, 2011

Matthew 27:51-54
1 Corinthians 15:20 --- 26

The only problem with the "first fruits" feast position is that Yeshua was only in the Tomb for three days, not five or six. We end up missing a huge part of the 'drash by confounding the historic order of time during the year He was crucified. The other problem being that the Feast of First Fruits was given by God for a particular reason and purpose, and celebrating the resurrection of the Messiah is not one of them. It could be seen as misusing a commandment. It's a bit like using one's kid's birthday to celebrate Labor Day because it sounds like the "labour" one's wife went through in childbirth or something.

However, I am not really too concerned myself. Although there is no command to celebrate any event in the life and ministry of Yeshua, I am happy to do it the church's way for the sake of the unity of the brethren and because it's quite beneficial to faith and a great opportunity to love people. I celebrate Jewish holidays because I think it's important to remain true to my culture (and this seems more important the older and grumpier I get) and because I do think there is some kind of commitment required by God to remember His mighty acts and covenants given to us, and they're a great opportunity to love people.

I'm not a fundamentalist or anything so I think people are free to follow their conscience on this matter because I really don't think God minds as much as the fundamentalists think He does about which day Christians want to have a holiday or not. I can't help my generousity on this, because I really see God loving and blessing people in all walks of life and in all styles of faith.

 

[ContraMundum]

No, I actually asked this close to 40 years ago, so don't remember the conversation, but I think someone was just winging the answer and didn't really know. I asked someone else about the mystical component, and they just shrugged and said they didn't think so, but didn't give an answer. I never thought to ask about it after that, and all the "old guard" has long died off, so it will for ever remain a mystery I think.

Can we not explore this question outside of that one shule? Would this not be obvious to others as well? Where to start.......hmmmm