Sick of Protestant-bashing

[GregConstantine]

dzheremi, you are the voice of reason on this forum!

I agree with you that there's a certain perceived kind of Orthodoxy here and if you don't agree with it, you'll get criticized in a very heavy handed way and accused of all sorts of things.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

I want to make myself clear because since throwing my rope into the pile (I think that was clever, lol) it's become apparent I am being lumped into this militant, heavy handed, etc group. Let me be clear, I have Protestant friends, they're some awful good people, they're not all bad, and I'm not saying to we need to berate or harass people because that's not what we the Orthodox are about. What I am saying is I refuse to not call a spade a spade and I say these things because as followers of Christ Jesus we need to seriously urge our Protestant friends to consider the spiritual ramifications of what they say and do in the name of Christ and his holy Church.

I mean, was it not said that if you drink from this cup in an unworthy manner you're drinking the judgement of the Lord? This is some pretty serious stuff ladies as gentleman.

 

[GregConstantine]

You're not being lumped St Herman's ghost, I agree with you 100%. I'm afraid though that what you said can and probably would be considered "protestant bashing". Merely stating the teachings of the Church without singling out specific individuals will be considered "protestant bashing".

 

[civilwarbuff]

I want to make myself clear because since throwing my rope into the pile (I think that was clever, lol) it's become apparent I am being lumped into this militant, heavy handed, etc group. Let me be clear, I have Protestant friends, they're some awful good people, they're not all bad, and I'm not saying to we need to berate or harass people because that's not what we the Orthodox are about. What I am saying is I refuse to not call a spade a spade and I say these things because as followers of Christ Jesus we need to seriously urge our Protestant friends to consider the spiritual ramifications of what they say and do in the name of Christ and his holy Church.

I mean, was it not said that if you drink from this cup in an unworthy manner you're drinking the judgement of the Lord? This is some pretty serious stuff ladies as gentleman.

Mar 9:38 John told Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name. We tried to stop him, because he wasn't a follower like us."
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, "Don't stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name can slander me soon afterwards.
Mar 9:40 Whoever is not against us is for us.
Mar 9:41 I tell you with certainty, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to the Messiah will never lose his reward."
Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing. I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Mar 9:38 John told Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name. We tried to stop him, because he wasn't a follower like us."
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, "Don't stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name can slander me soon afterwards.
Mar 9:40 Whoever is not against us is for us.
Mar 9:41 I tell you with certainty, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to the Messiah will never lose his reward."
Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing. I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

You're right in this respect

 

[GregConstantine]

"Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing."

That's the thing, we don't believe the same things at the core.

 

[civilwarbuff]

"Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing."

That's the thing, we don't believe the same things at the core.

I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

Not sure what you are saying...do you disagree with the above statement as it applies to you or to me?....or maybe something else?

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm saying you (I'm assuming you are a protestant, or not Orthodox) and I (and Orthodox in general) do not believe the same things at the core.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm saying you (I'm assuming you are a protestant, or not Orthodox) and I (and Orthodox in general) do not believe the same things at the core.

So you disagree with this statement:

I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

It seems to me that this is about as core of a belief as one could have? Could you expand on where you believe the differences lay...at core belief level that is?
And yes, I am protestant.

 

[GregConstantine]

I can do that. I'd like to know more about what you believe and what kind of a background you are coming from. As different protestants believe different things. It can be helpful to know where you're coming from to be able to answer your question.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Mar 9:38 John told Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name. We tried to stop him, because he wasn't a follower like us."
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, "Don't stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name can slander me soon afterwards.
Mar 9:40 Whoever is not against us is for us.
Mar 9:41 I tell you with certainty, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to the Messiah will never lose his reward."
Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing. I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

Well, now hold on.

A Mormon would be able to stand and say as much, but I assume you would not consider a Mormon a brother/sister in Christ.

So I think we could agree that the criteria for brotherhood extends beyond these you cite here.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I can do that. I'd like to know more about what you believe and what kind of a background you are coming from. As different protestants believe different things. It can be helpful to know where you're coming from to be able to answer your question.

Got to head out for a bit but will pick this up when I get back. Thanks

 

[All4Christ]

"Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing."

That's the thing, we don't believe the same things at the core.

Just because we don't walk hand in glove down the street together does not mean that, at the core, we don't believe the same thing. I am one with Messiah...He is my Lord, my God, my King and my Savior. Anyone who stands and says as much is my brother/sister in Christ.

I think that many things we believe at the core are the same, but some are different and some that are at the core of Orthodoxy are not included in the Protestant belief system - though the extent of this varies between various denominations.

That doesn't mean, however, that we believe Protestants are not followers of Christ, nor that we believe that all Protestants will not be saved (note that we don't believe all Orthodox will be saved either). No matter how we feel about any individual's sincerity in following and loving Christ though, we can't and shouldn't deny that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.

I believe 100% that my parents, sister, Grandma, etc are Christians and followers of Christ. That said, I desire so much to share with them the beauty of Orthodoxy and the fulfillment of all I had been looking for throughout my life, even when I didn't know I was looking for it. Even my father has started to see portions of what I am referring to through the past years that I have been Orthodox.

This isn't meant to sound pretentious or arrogant. I struggle often with the best way to explain it. That said, I feel blessed beyond measure to be able to experience this faith. I want to work with my family and friends that are not Orthodox to share our faith together, but I also want to share with them the fullness of the faith, which is found in the original Church, the continuous line of faith from Jesus, to the apostles, to the apostolic fathers, all the way to us through the safeguarding of the Church.

 

[GregConstantine]

"I think that many things we believe at the core are the same"

On a foundational level, this is not true. Having some beliefs in common isn't enough. One must have the proper understanding and teaching in order to obtain salvation. You're right that this doesn't mean that we judge anyone, but we can and do judge institutions, systems, beliefs, practices, etc. We have to try our best to keep the abstract concepts and institutions separate from specific individual people when we discuss these things. I think this is a challenge for many, but we mustn't allow that to sidetrack us from discussing the salvific holy teachings of the Church in contrast to other teachings and beliefs.

I think that while we wait for civilwarbuff to come back and share with us his background, we can start discussing some of the important and fundamental differences between us and Protestantism. Please note very carefully, lest anyone make giant leaps of assumptions, what I'm about to say are generalizations, I repeat, generalizations.

I believe the fundamental differences can be found in two main areas: What is Salvation? And, What Or Who Is The Final Authority in the Life of the Christian? From both of these two areas, everything else we do and believe flows.

It is also important for Protestants to understand that from the Orthodox perspective, there isn't a strong distinction between "essential" and "non-essential" doctrines. All doctrine is essential, all doctrine is apostolic. Everything else we do and say again, as before, flows from the teachings of the Church. Everything we need for our salvation has been given to us. God has not left us in the dark about anything.

What Is Protestantism?

The best place to begin is with the term "Protestant". It means a community of faith with Western European roots that at some point can trace its origins to the Reformation or in some cases to the Reformation's precursor movements. These broke with Rome at first, then with each other on various points of theology and practice.

But with or without the break all these churches use or used the theological dogmas, practices, conceptual framework of the Roman Catholic Church as their touchstone…some "+" some "-" on any given issue but still plotting theology on the same x/y axes as it were.

What is Salvation?

In the west the common soteriological paradigm begins with St. Augustine, and was expanded by Anshelm was essentially juridical. That is to say salvation was conceived of in terms appropriate to a courtroom or to legal transactions. Anselm's modeled that juridical setting on the court of a feudalistic lord…and this is the concept that stayed in most Protestant Churches: God's eternal dignity is offended by man's sin. This offense warrants death. God could not/would not forgive this offense without the sacrifice of someone of equal dignity to Himself. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity became man and fulfilled this requirement. Henceforth those who believed inChrist were declared "not guilty" and would be granted entry into heaven at their death.

Rome has this view too but insisted that only the truly holy entered heaven. Man had to in a sense "earn" his salvation by the keeping of various Church obligations and good deeds, prayer, etc. This earned him merit. To that by virtue of his devotions to the saints, requesting their help, he received more merits…the idea being to eventually earn the merit of Christ, whose merits secured man's salvation in particular. Basically you had to "prove" to Christ you were worthy of His sacrifice so that He would extend His saving work's benefits to you. This was still a legal transaction…just with a few extra steps of a similar nature thrown in. Salvation was a condition of being declared "not guilty" before the judgment throne of God.

Protestants in various ways simplified those steps but retained the same foundational framework as the Roman Catholics, salvation is being declared "not guilty". One is thereby saved both from God and from Hell…in short God has decided on the basis of your profession of faith in Christ's sacrifice not to kill you, and instead be more kindly disposed towards you.

The Orthodox hear this and it makes us shudder. It effectively makes God the ultimate enemy of man who can only be appeased in his fury by the murder of His own Son. He is either a monster placated only with blood, or weak and needy…bound by some greater necessity (the law) to destroy us.

While the Orthodox admit there is a juridical image expressed in scripture regarding salvation, it is no where near what Anselm made it out to be, and furthermore it is not central to what salvation is. Rather the central paradigm is that of a hospital and physician. In this paradigm man is sick unto death with sin. Christ comes as the great physician who offers us His life in the place of our own so that we may be healed and become like Him. The Church is the hospital where in one find those at every stage from the gravely ill to those on the threshold of complete healing, and everything in between. The sacraments of the Church, the icons, the worship, prayer, its feasts and fasts is the therapy of the Church through which a we become healed and become more like Christ and incorporates Christ's life into our own and are little by little healed. Salvation for the Orthodox is not getting to heaven…but becoming what God is by His Grace as it were.

And that leads to another important point and difference. Grace isn't God's disposition towards us. Grace is the very power of God in us, transforming us, and enabling us to live the life we are called to live. Grace isn't an attitude, but the very uncreated energy of God Himself.

Authority:

Protestants will tend to say that the Bible as they currently have it is the final authority. Each man may read and interpret it for himself. While there may be other "authorities" in a given faith community, the Bible itself is paramount.

Orthodox believe the Tradition is paramount and we believe that the Scriptures, which are a product of the Church are an important part of, but not exists over Tradition…the Paradosis, that which is handed down. So for the Orthodox it is theologically impossible to pit the Bible against Tradition, they are part of the same authoritative corpus. This is rooted in the belief that the life of the Church is given by the Holy Spirit, and the Tradition of the Church is the totality of everything revealed to us by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, which has been handed down (Traditio=handed down) to the successive generations of believers.

Thus there is no bright line between the body of texts we call the Scriptures and the writings of the great saints and martyrs who followed the Apostles. They all are rock from the same mountain…the Scriptures simply being the very summit of that mountain…those texts authorized (by the Church) to be used within the Church for it's worship and teaching. The Scriptures were written by and for the Church. It is the Church that interprets Scripture, not the individual.
Furthermore the Scriptures while regarded as very deep are not a guidebook or enclycopedia concerning the life of man and the order and worship of the Church. Those gaps are filled by other aspects of the Tradition.

This keeps us from going to the Scriptures or any other part of the life of the Church with just our own eyes and judgments. We live and believe as body in and across time. We read Scripture with 2000 year old eyes. We understand the faith by hearing the counsel of the saints and holy teachers nearest to our own time..and understand earlier saints by those who came after them down to our own time. Private individual understandings about anything in the life and faith of the Church leads to chaos, division, and heresy.

 

[All4Christ]

"I think that many things we believe at the core are the same"

Many things meaning that scripture is true, deity of Christ, Trinity, virgin birth, morality, etc. I agree that there are serious differences, most importantly imho with soteriology, but there is common ground to start on. However, it is hard to compare without knowing which denomination we are looking at, as Protestant denominations vary greatly.

I'm going to look through the rest of your post more closely...just wanted to explain my thoughts on this.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, now hold on.

A Mormon would be able to stand and say as much, but I assume you would not consider a Mormon a brother/sister in Christ.

So I think we could agree that the criteria for brotherhood extends beyond these you cite here.

I did say anyone, however I was looking at this from a protestant perspective since that is the flavor of this thread. And whatever else Mormonism is it is certainly not protestant.

 

[GregConstantine]

"Many things meaning that scripture is true, deity of Christ, Trinity, virgin birth, morality"

I understand, but that's not enough.

 

[gzt]

I think we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that being right means we get to be jerks to people. There are lines to be careful of when we're just sitting around talking in a public place where everybody can see and literally nothing is at stake.

 

[All4Christ]

I think we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that being right means we get to be jerks to people. There are lines to be careful of when we're just sitting around talking in a public place where everybody can see and literally nothing is at stake.

That's why anytime I talk about something like this I have to write something, leave it for about 15 minutes, come back, read it, rewrite it, etc. It's a tough line to follow.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Here I thought I was going to have a simple discussion of where protestants and Orthodox had similarities knowing differences would come out. Imagine my horror on reading a synopsis of "Eastern Christianity 401". I am not educated, formally or otherwise, in either EO or protestant Christianity. I only know what I believe in my heart from scripture, independent reading, and church. I will try to keep up. Try not to use really big words.
Until my early teens I was raised in the Presbyterian Church (not USA thank goodness). Later on I spent time in Nazarene, Baptist and now a non-denominational church where I do feel at home. Below is our faith statement, probably not too different from other evangelical churches.
God
We believe there is one God: the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who are co-equal.
Gen. 1:1-2,26; Ex. 3:14; Ps. 90:2; Matt. 28:19; John 8:58;10:30; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 13:4; 1 Tim. 2:5; 6:15-16

Jesus Christ
We believe Jesus Christ is the one and only eternal Son of God, deity, who entered the world as a human conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life, and gave His life on the cross as a representative and substitutionary payment for the sins of the world. On the third day He conquered death and rose bodily from the grave, appeared to men, and ascended to heaven. He will return again bodily to earth to reclaim His followers, judge all the peoples of the earth, and establish His Kingdom.
Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:22,26; John 1:1,15; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:3,4; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 2:5-7; Col. 1:17,19; 2:9; 2 Tim. 2:4-6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:3,8

Holy Spirit
We believe the Holy Spirit is God, sent by the Father to minister on earth by convicting people of their need for Christ, baptizing, sealing and indwelling all who put their faith in Christ at the time of their conversion, and gifting, guiding, filling, and empowering believers to know God and serve Him effectively.
Gen. 1:2; John 14:16-17; 16:8-11; Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:19; 12:4-13; Gal. 5:25; Eph. 1:13; 4:6,30; 5:18; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 1:2

The Bible
We believe the Bible is the Word of God. It was verbally inspired by God, infallible and inerrant in its original form, delivered by the Holy Spirit through human authors, and is the sole, final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
Ps. 119:105; John 17:17; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:19-21

Humanity
We believe humanity is the capstone of God's creation, made in the image of God for the purpose of knowing God and enjoying Him forever. Through Adam's sin all people became separated from God, incapable of fulfilling their purpose and powerless to change their condition or restore themselves to God.
Gen. 1:26-31; 3:1-23; Ps. 8:3-6; Isa. 64:6-7;Rom. 3:9-20; 5:12; 6:23

Humanity
We believe humanity is the capstone of God's creation, made in the image of God for the purpose of knowing God and enjoying Him forever. Through Adam's sin all people became separated from God, incapable of fulfilling their purpose and powerless to change their condition or restore themselves to God.
Gen. 1:26-31; 3:1-23; Ps. 8:3-6; Isa. 64:6-7;Rom. 3:9-20; 5:12; 6:23

Salvation
We believe salvation is a gift from God to humanity, offered solely on the basis of God's unmerited love for man through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on their behalf. An individual receives the gift of salvation by admitting their inability to please God, repenting of their sin, and entrusting themselves through faith to Christ's payment alone. The provision and maintenance of this relationship rests entirely with God and cannot be earned, affected, or maintained by people's efforts or actions.
John 1:12; 3:16; 14:6; Acts 16:31; Rom. 4:5; 5:1,8; 6:23; 10:9-10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 2:8-9; 1 Pet. 2:24

Eternity
We believe people will exist forever, either eternally separated from God or in eternal union with God in Heaven. At physical death each person's eternal destiny is sealed, and their spirit goes immediately to hell or heaven. Every individual will be bodily resurrected and judged by Christ, with their final destination based solely on whether the person was restored to God through faith in Christ's provision for their sin.
Dan. 12:2; John 3:16-17; 5:21-29; Rev. 20:11-15; 21:1-4

The Church
We believe Jesus Christ established the church as His primary method for building His Kingdom until His return. The universal Church is the body of Christ, comprised of all true believers on earth, and is organized through local communities of believers who unite for the three-fold purpose of exaltation, edification, and evangelism. Through the church all Christians are to follow the ordinances of believers baptism and regular participation in the Lords Supper (Communion) until His return. All believers are to discover, develop, and use their spiritual gifts to help accomplish the church's mission.
Matt. 16:18; 26:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:23-26; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:4; 5:25-32; Col. 1:24

Shall I go first?