Sick of Protestant-bashing

[CelticRebel]

I just wanted to say that I have been treated well and with respect by most in the EO forum.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So it is not only Christian and Catholic that have these problems?

Those are human being problems, not bound by jurisdiction or religion.

I say this because at least I have not heard of such issues within EO/OO communities...not that I am closely connected to them....just that there is nothing I have seen, read, or heard on the news.

 

[gzt]

I say this because at least I have not heard of such issues within EO/OO communities...not that I am closely connected to them....just that there is nothing I have seen, read, or heard on the news.

Well, I won't shatter your record on that point, but we all have dirty laundry.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, I won't shatter your record on that point, but we all have dirty laundry.

agreed.....we are all flawed

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Don't take this wrong, Jeremy, but your frequent use of the word "our" when referring to the Church and Christian faith might be criticized in here if we want to get picky because you are not part of "our" Church--the Orthodox Church. While our differences are mostly razor thin, the fact is the Coptic Church is not part of the Orthodox Church. You guys fell away from the ancient faith and technically aren't part of the group. Everyone tries to identify with Orthodoxy be it Copts or Catholics, but the reality is neither is part of the Church.

I disagree with you mostly here. I'll be quite honest that I think there is some real junk out there in the Protestant hinterlands. I hear prosperity gospels, crazy Benny Hinn types with white suits and too much hair spray, "can I get an amen!" altar calling yahoos, and many other questionable types. I hear and see plenty that raises my eyebrows. But the fact is, we're not going to get anywhere by just calling out bad Protestant campaigns against Starbucks or weird opinions out there. Fact is, it's just not Orthodox style to do this. The Orthodox Church is always best at one thing----TALKING ABOUT ORTHODOXY. And we can do that without constantly feeling the need to rip on other churches. And I am not sure, as a Coptic Christian, if you're part of the "we" or you'd have come to us to get chrismated? Again, don't take that as a slam, but I've never understood how someone not a member of a church can caucus with another then make fun of another they deem bizarre an "not like us" when there isn't an us to begin with?

As for your angle about how evangelicals have "weakened" Coptic villages, etc. I would suggest that if the Coptic Church (and Orthodox for that matter!!!) had done a better job of catechesis, preaching, and pastoral care, perhaps those folks wouldn't have felt confounded? I am confident enough now (finally) in my Orthodoxy that I won't be easily converted by an hipster that comes to my front door with a Watchtower or Mormon eternal marriage literature. I know the nuts and bolts of the religion of Orthodoxy, and I know it's the only real game in town. So I'm not given to conversion now despite my former weakness and failures.

It's the same with the Philippines. Catholics are up in arms about how the Iglesia ni Cristo and the Mormons and JW's and a host of other folks have been able to swoop in and "steal" away the Catholic heritage of Filipinos. My wife will tell you that most Filipinos are governed by strong emotion, passion, and feeling rather than a strong catechesis. And when that's the case....woooah, boy, look out. So you Coptic folks and we Orthodox need to quit whining about the evangelicals thieving our people away and start building a stronger fortress for our kids in their faith to withstand the siege towers of the Protestants!

I think your last paragraph where you seem to see practically nothing redeeming in Protestant Christianity that bothers me the most. While I reject the "solas" and being "saved" and many other Protestant facets, my ancestors, Calvinists, are people I respect. They built a strong Christian fabric into this nation along with the other Protestants in different states. It is probably this ingrained old Protestant faith that is just about the ONLY THING keeping us from becoming Europe! My great great grandfather was a Methodist missionary circuit-rider and a brave soul who went throughout the Midwest and South preaching Jesus Christ to people who didn't give a fig about God. He won a lot of folks over. I have ancestors on the Mayflower and some brave family members like Captain George Denison, my ancestor, who was a courageous Calvinist. He returned to the UK to help Oliver Cromwell fight. I have an Anglican priest in my heritage along with several other clergy. I don't see them as wackos, outlandish, or having wasted their lives. I see great heroism in them despite my personal disagreements with them. They were good folks trying to do the best with their understanding of the Christian religion, despite the flaws.

I think there is great good in Martin Luther, in John Wesley, and in men like John Stott and C.S. Lewis, JI Packer, and several other Protestants. As a mature Orthodox guy, I can take the good in their opinions and toss the mistaken errors and appreciate the good in their lives.

I say we take the high road where we avoid blasting Protestants where possible, only address individual errors with them, and be charitable. I am merely saying that TAW has traditionally been pretty dignified in its dealings with non-Orthodox, and I'd like to keep it that way. Polemical anti talk just doesn't endear anyone. My parish rolls that way. Many are former Protestants in my parish. You rarely hear them blasting their past. That tends to be the newbie youngins who are fanatical and driven to polemics.

Anyway, my two cents....the ramblings of a teacher in the midst of report cards, parent-teacher conferences, minimum days, and two much work with not enough pay!

We ought to be able to discuss the effects and pitfalls of having an Evangelical Protestant-driven religio-political culture in the United States representing "Christianity" without being accused of bashing anyone. No one person built this edifice, and it's certainly not the fault of our individual Protestant friends or family that the media takes certain stories or highlights certain impulses within the Protestant world and runs with them, thereby tarring all of us by the slightest association (the Christian label).

However, I believe that at some point we must be honest and say that these communities, while they may do great things with what they have, are unlike us in whatever respect they are, and we are unlike them, and that to whatever extent they have perverted the Gospel (by intertwining our Lord with modern day American political left/right dichotomies that make zero sense in the face of an omnipotent and transcendent God; by making unclean what He has made clean; by refusing to give honor to those people and places He has particularly blessed; etc.), it is right to stand up and say "what you have correct is fantastic, but that does not excuse or lessen the damage you are doing, so I cannot support you or urge others to do so even if you are doing what you're doing out of sincere conviction that this is the proper Christian response." After all, you can have a great love for Christ and a great desire to follow Him and still be doing damage to the faith by what you choose to focus on and what you choose to neglect (or even disallow). This is not a purely Protestant problem/issue, and it long predates modern day Evangelicalism. Recall the warning in the Gospel of St. Matthew: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." That's still going on today. That's still a warning for all of us right now.

It is not good enough, I don't think, to say "these groups are spreading the Gospel to X people!", as though there is one Gospel recognized by all in the same way and anyone who gets to it first is to be applauded because they're doing it. Remember that the heretic Maricon's mutilation of the scriptures predates the accepted NT canon of our father St. Athanasius the Apostolic by some centuries. We do not praise Marcion on that account.

Y.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen! We Orthodox are pretty LOUSY about missionary efforts. It's absurd that some Americans have to drive 3-4 hours to find an Orthodox parish. Countries like my wife's home land of the Philippines have practically zero Orthodox presence. Yet we whine about missionaries. Best way to stop them? FIGHT BACK!

It grieves me when I see Protestants coming into Orthodox countries to evangelize. I've seen it and it is very sad to me to see that. That said - I do appreciate the zeal that many have to reach the world. If we don't want Protestants to spread their theology (whether intentional or not), then I agree with you: we need to step up and do some instead.

 

[E.C.]

Yet another post long on vitriol and short on facts.

Given the huge number of Orthodox in the US that have converted from Protestantism, including many on this board and a majority of priests in the Antiochian church in the US, your statement that Protestantism is "driving people away...from Orthodoxy" is demonstrably untrue.

If anything, the Holy Spirit is using Protestantism as a springboard into Orthodoxy, as occurred when so many of the Evangelical Orthodox Church became Orthodox in 1987.

Speaking as one with personal knowledge of this area, I heavily advise one reconsider the praises for the former EOC communities. Many have caused insurmountable spiritual damage for hundreds (if not thousands) after their coming to the Orthodox Church.

That being said, there are many cases of non-denominational Protestant communities which became Orthodox after studies of early Christian history and have not caused spiritual damage en masse. Sing their praises instead.

 

[dzheremi]

Don't take this wrong, Jeremy, but your frequent use of the word "our" when referring to the Church and Christian faith might be criticized in here if we want to get picky because you are not part of "our" Church--the Orthodox Church. While our differences are mostly razor thin, the fact is the Coptic Church is not part of the Orthodox Church. You guys fell away from the ancient faith and technically aren't part of the group. Everyone tries to identify with Orthodoxy be it Copts or Catholics, but the reality is neither is part of the Church.

Gurney, I don't know how many times I have to write this (apparently once more), but I only ever post about MY OWN church. When I say the Orthodox Church, I mean MY Church, not yours. When I write about the Orthodox faith, I mean the faith of the THREE ecumenical councils, not seven. If I use "we", as in the post you are quoting, I am meaning to include you guys not because I somehow think we are in communion when we are not (I am well aware of the Chalcedonians not being in communion with us), or that we are somehow the same when we are not (perish the thought), but because what I am writing is something that I believe equally applies to both of our communions: We (meaning OO and EO) are not like the Protestants because you, the EO, are not Protestants, and us, the OO, are not Protestants. If you wish to dispute this characterization because it's coming from a dirty Miaphysite heretic, that's up to you, but I'm not particularly interested in rehashing this particular non-point with you yet again.

I disagree with you mostly here.

Give me a moment to fetch my Epsom salts.

As for your angle about how evangelicals have "weakened" Coptic villages, etc. I would suggest that if the Coptic Church (and Orthodox for that matter!!!) had done a better job of catechesis, preaching, and pastoral care, perhaps those folks wouldn't have felt confounded? I am confident enough now (finally) in my Orthodoxy that I won't be easily converted by an hipster that comes to my front door with a Watchtower or Mormon eternal marriage literature. I know the nuts and bolts of the religion of Orthodoxy, and I know it's the only real game in town. So I'm not given to conversion now despite my former weakness and failures.

Okay. I'm not really sure what the point of the above is, but yes, better catechesis is an answer to many problems in many different churches.

It's the same with the Philippines. Catholics are up in arms about how the Iglesia ni Cristo and the Mormons and JW's and a host of other folks have been able to swoop in and "steal" away the Catholic heritage of Filipinos. My wife will tell you that most Filipinos are governed by strong emotion, passion, and feeling rather than a strong catechesis. And when that's the case....woooah, boy, look out. So you Coptic folks and we Orthodox need to quit whining about the evangelicals thieving our people away and start building a stronger fortress for our kids in their faith to withstand the siege towers of the Protestants!

From your fingers to our respective peoples'/priests'/bishops' (better?) ears.

I think your last paragraph where you seem to see practically nothing redeeming in Protestant Christianity that bothers me the most.

That's fine. I wrote that because that's how I see it, so of course others might not agree. I'm not here to make friends at the expense of my convictions. I personally do not see anything redeeming in Protestantism as a form of religion. The things that Protestants may do which are admirable (and there are such things, as I also said in that post) are not really things that they invented: Bible translations, evangelism, catechetical classes for young and old, etc. All of these things long predated the birth of Protestantism, and while Protestantism may have proven more successful at some of them than non-Protestants, a peek in at history shows that this was often at the expense of preexisting Christian communities, and has led to some very bad backlashes that have only made it harder for people to receive the true Orthodox faith.

While I reject the "solas" and being "saved" and many other Protestant facets, my ancestors, Calvinists, are people I respect.

And I likewise respect my Roman Catholic ancestors. That doesn't mean the Church of Rome is right about any particular thing, or that the Orthodox Church should adopt any particular thing from Rome. You can respect people and still maintain that their faith is wrong.

They built a strong Christian fabric into this nation along with the other Protestants in different states.

Hmm. Good for America, I guess? Half of my family came here in the 1880s, and the other half only in the 1930s, so I dunno. I think being an "American" is rather artificial for everyone who is not a Native American or of the first generation of European colonists, so I can't get too jazzed about how what so-and-so did helped America. Heck, my own father (who is still alive) was nearly a Mexican citizen, were it not for my grandmother's contention that he'd be better off being an American only (she was right, too; that's one thing I'll give America -- we are more prosperous than our neighbor to the south...for now). That's how recent this stuff is in my family, so...ehhh...America. What's being an American for most people in practical terms beyond being better/superior to someone from somewhere else? An oversimplification, sure, but still shamefully kind of true for many.

It is probably this ingrained old Protestant faith that is just about the ONLY THING keeping us from becoming Europe!

...I swear I did not plan that. I don't read ahead. (Obviously I should start.)

My great great grandfather was a Methodist missionary circuit-rider and a brave soul who went throughout the Midwest and South preaching Jesus Christ to people who didn't give a fig about God. He won a lot of folks over. I have ancestors on the Mayflower and some brave family members like Captain George Denison, my ancestor, who was a courageous Calvinist. He returned to the UK to help Oliver Cromwell fight. I have an Anglican priest in my heritage along with several other clergy. I don't see them as wackos, outlandish, or having wasted their lives. I see great heroism in them despite my personal disagreements with them. They were good folks trying to do the best with their understanding of the Christian religion, despite the flaws.

Again, all of this is commendable, but I would hope you would agree that none of it means that Calvinism is correct. Otherwise you'd probably be a Calvinist. So admiration can only go so far, and truth (God willing) will/should always trump it. I admire lots of people who are wrong in matters of religion or other matters. And of course plenty of people, on this board especially, would say that I am wrong. That's life. I'm happy where I am, and certainly hope that others are happy where they are.

I think there is great good in Martin Luther, in John Wesley, and in men like John Stott and C.S. Lewis, JI Packer, and several other Protestants. As a mature Orthodox guy, I can take the good in their opinions and toss the mistaken errors and appreciate the good in their lives.

Absolutely. I've got my copy of CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain beside me on the desk as I type this, in fact, and I grew up with his Chronicles of Narnia series.

I say we take the high road where we avoid blasting Protestants where possible, only address individual errors with them, and be charitable.

Individual errors when they crop up, sure. I don't see this as excluding a more general commentary on social forces borne out of this or that religious current, however. I mean, that is also one level on which people here and everywhere regularly discuss matters, and in doing so we don't need to make (or take) anything personal(ly). If, for instance, I relay my Coptic friend's observation upon returning from a month in Egypt for his cousin's wedding that modern (at the time, MB-ruled) Egypt feels more like Saudi Arabia than Egypt, am I somehow tarring all Egyptians as being Wahhabi fanatics? No. This is one guy's street-level observation on the effect of the dominant religion on his society, from his own vantage point as a member of a minority religion of that society. Again, I believe we should be able to talk about the effects of religio-political agendas built by others on entire societies without feeling like we're "bashing" anyone. It would be bashing if I were to say YOU, Gurney (or YOU, whoever) are guilty of propagating XYZ and are therefore bad, "in cahoots" with bad people, etc. But that's nothing I'd ever say, and despite the efforts of my detractors in this thread to read such things into my posts, it's not even something I'm saying about actual individual Protestant people, or even individual Protestant churches. I'd much prefer to write honestly about things on this macro level, because individual experience is variable, and in a society of 300+ million people like the USA, generally speaking no one person is either running the circus or guarding the hen house.

 

[dzheremi]

I am merely saying that TAW has traditionally been pretty dignified in its dealings with non-Orthodox, and I'd like to keep it that way. Polemical anti talk just doesn't endear anyone.

I have seen nothing less than both of these from most people here, certainly also including myself (though I'm not the best judge of my own posting, I think we have seen in this thread how it is not up to everyone's standard). What can we do? Self-monitor our own posting, I guess? People find plenty to hate in just about any position you can take, and plenty is seen as "anti-talk" when we all think we're being most reasonable, so while I appreciate the sentiment, I'll believe it when I see it. For instance, you too are polemical and have not missed an opportunity to remind me that the OO are not Orthodox to you or your Church (even in threads like this, which are ostensibly about Protestantism), you can't understand why anyone would be OO, etc., so what am I supposed to think of your observation now that "TAW has traditionally been pretty dignified in its dealings the non-Orthodox"? Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Note that I don't particularly care that these are your beliefs or that you feel the need to share them at me again (in the sense that I won't hold them against you, and indeed they're precisely what I would expect a committed EO to think and say; for my part, I can't understand how anyone could be EO, so I can relate to you on that level); that's totally fine, it just gives me pause when the back-patting starts about how great and dignified this place supposedly is. I'm a guest here and don't intend to tell you your business, but at the same time, don't spit on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting. The standard of who is being dignified to who is very rarely impartially determined by the majority commenting upon its own treatment of the minority, but if that's what others are telling you, then go with it, I guess. This place is not nearly as bad as some other parts of the internet, that's for sure. You guys are alright with me, even if occasionally some people want to argue over opinions. It'd be boring to live our online lives in an echo chamber, no?

My parish rolls that way. Many are former Protestants in my parish. You rarely hear them blasting their past. That tends to be the newbie youngins who are fanatical and driven to polemics.

No former Protestants in mine, though at the parish in which I was baptized there were several. We have instead former Catholics (me and a few others), and perhaps former EO (I'm not sure whether the people in question converted since I moved back to CA or not, but there were a husband and wife who were on that road when I left to move back to CA). Eh...it takes all kinds. No one in my little parish ever bashed any Protestant or any other Christian that I saw, and we really did get along with everyone (in particular the local Greeks).

Anyway, my two cents....the ramblings of a teacher in the midst of report cards, parent-teacher conferences, minimum days, and two much work with not enough pay!

Ouch. And double ouch for the parent-teacher conferences. May God preserve you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Gentle,

I cannot say how Christ's Body is broken or whole. I don't know how God uses Protestants. I only know for sure that he uses Orthodoxy and operates in our sacramental life in a powerful way. I do not know His will through Protestantism. I remember I believe it was Father Thomas Hopko saying that many of us will be surprised on Judgment Day (who will get in and who won't!).

My personal desire is for folks to be Orthodox because I know it is the One Church Christ formed personally and that He commissioned and set forth with a priesthood and hierarchy and sacramental grace coupled with supernatural power to change lives. It is preserved in right thinking, the definition of "orthodox." It is a constant ship sailing through a sinful world impervious in the end to error and heterodoxy despite constantly being assailed by Satan.

So I maintain we must stick to what we know with 100% certitude rather than speculate the "validity" (for lack of a better term dealing with things Western) of other groups.

The thing about the Body of Christ, the thing about being saved by grace through the sacrifice of the one and only Worthy Lamb the Lord Jesus Christ, is that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the new life that he offers us in Him does not have a denomination. The Body of Christ is extremely divided, why? Because Satan promised to persecute us. Why? Because he hates us because God loves us and he knows that his fate is eternal damnation and that he has already been judged. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Him. What I see a lot among Christians is that we love our denominations and churches more that we love our salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are soooooooooo many doctrinal errors among EVERY SINGLE DENOMINATION, guess who brought them in? Satan! The most low! Because with every doctrinal error he brought in, he brought division.

God loves us more than anything else and He wants us saved, He wants us in Christ Jesus. So He works in our lives, no matter what denomination we may have started off with, and some people, as the Lord has worked in their lives to draw them closer, He has moved them from one denomination to another. Other people He plants firmly in one denomination. This is all the love and grace of God, not anything that we have done on our own. This whole idea of superiority of "Oh my denomination is better than yours because of x, y, and z" is utter nonsense. It's prideful, and guess who loves pride and whose original sin was pride as he tried to lift himself up to the height of God? Satan. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, but through the work of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. There is only one Heaven, there is only one way to get there, and that is enter in through the narrow gate, Jesus Christ Himself.

We need to let go of our love of our denomination and hold on to Jesus Christ because He is all that matters. He is the Word by which all things (including you and me) were created. He is the Word became flesh, the innocent, worthy lamb who allowed them to brutalize and murder Him in order that He might give us life, and that was the ultimate sacrifice, that was love! And He still loves us. All this infighting does nothing but further the agenda of our enemy. Do we love Jesus Christ? Do we love our neighbors as we love ourselves? Then there are some things we need to take to the Lord in prayer and ask Him if it is wise to keep certain ideas and entertain certain notions about different denominations. God is NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH. So He calls people from everywhere and brings them into HIS CHURCH, into a denomination that will work for them, and this is His grace, His plan at work.

We are ONE BODY, though we are divided into many parts. We must let go of the divisions and embrace Jesus Christ because in embracing Him the scales will fall from our eyes and we will begin to understand that salvation is not confined to denomination, but it is confined to Jesus Christ alone, the way, the truth, and the life. The main thing we need to do is pray, uphold each other as the body of Christ in prayer because that is the only way that anything gets done. Prayer is our greatest weapon against the enemy and already by distracting us from prayer, he wins a victory. Are we okay with letting the devil in and letting him have victories over us??? If I get wrapped up in how many denominations there are and in thinking that my denomination is better, then am I focused on the Lamb of God? Nope. I'm focused on condemning the people over there because they are "OTHER". This is a lie of the enemy and we need to nip it in the bud right quick so we can get back to the simplicity of the gospel - the blood of Jesus will never lose its power, it goes to the highest mountain and the lowest valley and He is the good shepherd who leaves the 99 to go after the 1. Do you really think that He will commend us in heaven for fighting about our denominations when His focus is on finding the lost?? Absolutely not! We must bring our focus back to Him, ask Him to help us humble ourselves, and focus on what matters - prayer to remove divisions from the Body of Christ and unite us once more in the Holy Spirit and in His love that we may continue to do His work upon the face of His earth that He has given us to inhabit.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In the most charitable way I can say this, Jeremy, you really are preaching on here. I don't see you as a "dirty miaphysite heretic." I think you're wrong in being Oriental. I can't for the life of my fathom why you'd join the Orientals, but it's a free country. You have your own subforum, and you're free to preach your "convictions" till you're blue in the face. I just know, as an Orthodox Christian, I don't want to hear them. I don't care to hear Oriental thinking or else I'd be Oriental. I hear Coptics say, "well there aren't many Copts in our subforum so I come here" to which I say, well, you should've thought about that when you joined a communion with such a tiny amount of people in it that have a scant presence. I know as an Orthodox Christian I never come to the Coptic area. I have no reason to do so. I don't need to vent my views in there for some odd reason.

I'm not sure where you get off on the tangent about Americans being superior to anyone. Never did I even elude to such nonsense? You seem to be arguing with a ghost there and missed my point entirely. It was about respect for ancestors, period, regardless of nation. My ancestors are largely Protestant, and I respect their contribution to the formation of my country, which happens to be the United States. It could easily be a notion applied anywhere else.

In the end, with all this, I'm the fool. It's 10:58 and instead of having a conversation with my lovely wife, I'm bandying around with a Coptic guy on the internet who feels he has to come into an Orthodox subforum and complain about Protestants. The fact I am taking the keystrokes here shows who the dipstick really is---me.

I must be dense. I didn't get the Epsom salts joke. Being a male, I don't use Epsom salts. Seems like a chick thing to me...and I didn't see the relevance, but like I said, I'm dense.

You say you don't care what I think, and yet you respond to my post with a Dostoevsky-length post telling an Orthodox Christian in an Orthodox forum that you can't fathom why he's Orthodox. Makes sense....in the Outer Limits....

Jeremy, my advice---try the Coptic subforum. You're not Orthodox. You don't care about my Orthodox views, and I could give a fig about Coptic Christianity. I get it. So the question is why you're here? I know why I am. This is my home?

But I digress.....

Gurney, I don't know how many times I have to write this (apparently once more), but I only ever post about MY OWN church. When I say the Orthodox Church, I mean MY Church, not yours. When I write about the Orthodox faith, I mean the faith of the THREE ecumenical councils, not seven. If I use "we", as in the post you are quoting, I am meaning to include you guys not because I somehow think we are in communion when we are not (I am well aware of the Chalcedonians not being in communion with us), or that we are somehow the same when we are not (perish the thought), but because what I am writing is something that I believe equally applies to both of our communions: We (meaning OO and EO) are not like the Protestants because you, the EO, are not Protestants, and us, the OO, are not Protestants. If you wish to dispute this characterization because it's coming from a dirty Miaphysite heretic, that's up to you, but I'm not particularly interested in rehashing this particular non-point with you yet again.



Give me a moment to fetch my Epsom salts.



Okay. I'm not really sure what the point of the above is, but yes, better catechesis is an answer to many problems in many different churches.



From your fingers to our respective peoples'/priests'/bishops' (better?) ears.



That's fine. I wrote that because that's how I see it, so of course others might not agree. I'm not here to make friends at the expense of my convictions. I personally do not see anything redeeming in Protestantism as a form of religion. The things that Protestants may do which are admirable (and there are such things, as I also said in that post) are not really things that they invented: Bible translations, evangelism, catechetical classes for young and old, etc. All of these things long predated the birth of Protestantism, and while Protestantism may have proven more successful at some of them than non-Protestants, a peek in at history shows that this was often at the expense of preexisting Christian communities, and has led to some very bad backlashes that have only made it harder for people to receive the true Orthodox faith.



And I likewise respect my Roman Catholic ancestors. That doesn't mean the Church of Rome is right about any particular thing, or that the Orthodox Church should adopt any particular thing from Rome. You can respect people and still maintain that their faith is wrong.



Hmm. Good for America, I guess? Half of my family came here in the 1880s, and the other half only in the 1930s, so I dunno. I think being an "American" is rather artificial for everyone who is not a Native American or of the first generation of European colonists, so I can't get too jazzed about how what so-and-so did helped America. Heck, my own father (who is still alive) was nearly a Mexican citizen, were it not for my grandmother's contention that he'd be better off being an American only (she was right, too; that's one thing I'll give America -- we are more prosperous than our neighbor to the south...for now). That's how recent this stuff is in my family, so...ehhh...America. What's being an American for most people in practical terms beyond being better/superior to someone from somewhere else? An oversimplification, sure, but still shamefully kind of true for many.



...I swear I did not plan that. I don't read ahead. (Obviously I should start.)



Again, all of this is commendable, but I would hope you would agree that none of it means that Calvinism is correct. Otherwise you'd probably be a Calvinist. So admiration can only go so far, and truth (God willing) will/should always trump it. I admire lots of people who are wrong in matters of religion or other matters. And of course plenty of people, on this board especially, would say that I am wrong. That's life. I'm happy where I am, and certainly hope that others are happy where they are.



Absolutely. I've got my copy of CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain beside me on the desk as I type this, in fact, and I grew up with his Chronicles of Narnia series.



Individual errors when they crop up, sure. I don't see this as excluding a more general commentary on social forces borne out of this or that religious current, however. I mean, that is also one level on which people here and everywhere regularly discuss matters, and in doing so we don't need to make (or take) anything personal(ly). If, for instance, I relay my Coptic friend's observation upon returning from a month in Egypt for his cousin's wedding that modern (at the time, MB-ruled) Egypt feels more like Saudi Arabia than Egypt, am I somehow tarring all Egyptians as being Wahhabi fanatics? No. This is one guy's street-level observation on the effect of the dominant religion on his society, from his own vantage point as a member of a minority religion of that society. Again, I believe we should be able to talk about the effects of religio-political agendas built by others on entire societies without feeling like we're "bashing" anyone. It would be bashing if I were to say YOU, Gurney (or YOU, whoever) are guilty of propagating XYZ and are therefore bad, "in cahoots" with bad people, etc. But that's nothing I'd ever say, and despite the efforts of my detractors in this thread to read such things into my posts, it's not even something I'm saying about actual individual Protestant people, or even individual Protestant churches. I'd much prefer to write honestly about things on this macro level, because individual experience is variable, and in a society of 300+ million people like the USA, generally speaking no one person is either running the circus or guarding the hen house.

 

[dzheremi]

In the most charitable way I can say this, Jeremy, you really are preaching on here.

Where have I preached against your EO faith here? EO have disagreed with me on this issue, but where have I preached against your faith as an EO?

I don't see you as a "dirty miaphysite heretic." I think you're wrong in being Oriental.

It doesn't matter.

I can't for the life of my fathom why you'd join the Orientals, but it's a free country.

Free internet, too.

You have your own subforum, and you're free to preach your "convictions" till you're blue in the face.

Do you give all non-EO such a warm reception here? Because I am feeling the love here, bud!

I just know, as an Orthodox Christian, I don't want to hear them.

So put me on ignore. Nobody is forcing you to "hear" things you don't want to on the internet.

I don't care to hear Oriental thinking or else I'd be Oriental.

So what? What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? You want people on TAW to not bash Protestants, and since I am a person who posts on TAW (whether you particularly like that I do so or not), this concerns me. So I posted here. I fail to see how this is really a problem unless I am somehow posting against the EO faith, which I don't believe I am. Heck, one of your fellow EO, Prodromos, liked the post that you and another EO have had such problems with. This tells me that there is room for differences opinion on this topic, and it really isn't a reason to question the faith of another. All of this stuff about how I'm not Orthodox to you or your church, and you don't want to hear what I have to say, and all this other stuff is just raking me over the coals for...well, I don't know why. Because you disagree with me. Which, again, I'm fine with. But I'm not going to go away just because you don't like me or don't like my opinions, or whatever this is about. Sorry, but it's just not going to happen. I'm not one to run off because the other kids were mean to me or whatever silliness.

I hear Coptics say, "well there aren't many Copts in our subforum so I come here" to which I say, well, you should've thought about that when you joined a communion with such a tiny amount of people in it that have a scant presence. I know as an Orthodox Christian I never come to the Coptic area. I have no reason to do so. I don't need to vent my views in there for some odd reason.

But if you were a regular poster there, and I posted something on that board that was about how posters there should or shouldn't behave, it would be appropriate in that context to express your views as a regular poster. I'm not doing anything else here.

And as to the other part...you can't be serious...yes, I should have decided my faith based on the relative sizes of our Christianforums.com subforums, despite the fact that I hadn't heard of this forum at all when I first became interested in the Coptic Orthodox Church (as you may recall, I was still posting on CAF at the time, as were you). That is totally reasonable, and absolutely how things work in the real world. Yes. Absolutely.

I'm not sure where you get off on the tangent about Americans being superior to anyone. Never did I even elude to such nonsense? You seem to be arguing with a ghost there and missed my point entirely. It was about respect for ancestors, period, regardless of nation. My ancestors are largely Protestant, and I respect their contribution to the formation of my country, which happens to be the United States. It could easily be a notion applied anywhere else.

Fair enough.

In the end, with all this, I'm the fool. It's 10:58 and instead of having a conversation with my lovely wife, I'm bandying around with a Coptic guy on the internet who feels he has to come into an Orthodox subforum and complain about Protestants. The fact I am taking the keystrokes here shows who the dipstick really is---me.

Er...okay, then.

I must be dense. I didn't get the Epsom salts joke. Being a male, I don't use Epsom salts. Seems like a chick thing to me...and I didn't see the relevance, but like I said, I'm dense.

Magnesium Sulfate is used to treat irregular heartbeats, such as precede a heart attack...

You say you don't care what I think, and yet you respond to my post with a Dostoevsky-length post telling an Orthodox Christian in an Orthodox forum that you can't fathom why he's Orthodox. Makes sense....in the Outer Limits....

No, no...I wrote it doesn't bother me that you say that I'm not Orthodox, that you don't understand my communion, etc. These are the kinds of things I would expect an EO to say, as I wrote. We are, after all, not the same. It only becomes a bit...eh...eye-rolling in the context of a post where you are also saying how good this forum generally is to non-EO. Apparently that doesn't include me if I post things that you do not like. Luckily, you are not the entire forum, and I like most people here and find many interesting things to learn and think about thanks to what you fine EO people post. So, sorry if it bothers you, but I believe I'll stay. And if anyone has any reason to say that I am somehow posting against the EO faith, please point it out to me how it is so so that I can stop doing that. I would never do so on purpose on this board. I just don't believe that this particular topic is a matter upon which I have somehow infringed upon some matter of EO faith, from what I have seen (other EO posters posting against Protestants in explicit terms, other EO posters liking my post, etc).

Jeremy, my advice---try the Coptic subforum.

I already do. Me and poster wgw (who also occasionally posts here) are practically the only people who post on that forum.

You're not Orthodox. You don't care about my Orthodox views, and I could give a fig about Coptic Christianity. I get it. So the question is why you're here? I know why I am. This is my home?

Again, I'm here because I like the people here, they post interesting things, and this is where most discussion happens.

All of this posting about me is off-topic, though, so if you're good now, we should probably get back to the actual topic.

Sorry for the brief diversion, everybody else. Gurney and I know each other from previous message boards, and he apparently doesn't like that I'm here. This must be a very sad page for him.

 

[prodromos]

I like you

 

[dzheremi]

Thank you. I like you too. I like basically everybody here (Gurney, too).

Edit (to try to get things back on topic): And I should add, I like most Protestants. I just don't like what many forms of Protestantism are about (denying the Theotokos, being iconoclasts, being anti-saints, etc.), or the effect that certain forms of Protestantism -- or rather the melding of some of the religious ideas of Protestantism and partisan politics -- have had on the USA, where I live. But Protestants as people may be as good or as bad as anyone, and on the whole (again, like most people), they are mostly good. Or at least earnest. I like that. When someone is honest, sincere, and passionate but wrong, it probably takes more effort to dislike them for being wrong than to like them regardless of their being wrong. It doesn't mean that you should partake of their error, or leave it uncorrected (depending on the context, of course; I don't go around with icons of the Theotokos to my Protestant friends, demanding that they kiss them), but on a purely interpersonal level, I find it very hard to do anything but love the Protestants I have known. Most of them, anyway. (The same can be said of all Orthodox, and indeed all people period, who I have known; everybody's a person before they're a whatever else.)

 

[prodromos]

Thank you for the backhanded complement.

I wasn't speaking about you in particular.

Do most Eastern Orthodox grow up with that particular denomination?...or do they come from somewhere else?

Most of the people in my parish grew up there. I came from an Evangelical Protestant background.

We do...we call it Communion.

We have that too....we confess our sins to God the Father in the name of the Son.

We have the saints...we just don't believe they have any particular influence between us and God.

We have that too...it is called the Holy Bible.
So you see, we really are pretty much the same.

Not so much, and I can say that because I have had a pretty full experience of both. I was raised in the Anglican Church in Australia by my parents who both love God dearly and strive to live lives pleasing to Him. I've been heavily involved in outreach programs aimed at teenagers in my youth. I am ever thankful for my Christian upbringing but must confess that it seems like a pale shadow in comparison to what I have experienced in the Orthodox Church.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Speaking as one with personal knowledge of this area, I heavily advise one reconsider the praises for the former EOC communities. Many have caused insurmountable spiritual damage for hundreds (if not thousands) after their coming to the Orthodox Church.

That being said, there are many cases of non-denominational Protestant communities which became Orthodox after studies of early Christian history and have not caused spiritual damage en masse. Sing their praises instead.

Perhaps, but they have also blessed thousands, if not millions. They helped start Ancient Faith Radio, sponsored the Orthodox Study Bible and catalysed Orthodox Christian Fellowships. Not bad coming from a group of one thousand converts.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Whilst there may be Copts who believe Protestant Evangelicals are the anti-Christ and some Orthodox here who believe Protestantism is always pernicious, my ROC hierarchs do not share that general antipathy. They aver that Holy Orthodoxy is the one, true Church, and that Evangelicalism is deeply flawed. But also see conservative Protestants (mostly Evangelicals) as common allies in a war against secularism, the break-up of the family, abortion and homosexuality.

Here is His Holiness Patriarch Kirill meeting with William Franklin Graham of the Billy Graham Association in Moscow two weeks ago . https://mospat.ru/en/2015/10/28/news124369/

He said: "“This gives us a sign of hope: there are people among Western Christians akin to us in ethic principles, sharing them with the Russian Orthodox Church.” Notice that Patriarch Kirill did not call these "Western Christians" "heretics", "anti-Christ" or "enemies of Orthodoxy". https://mospat.ru/en/2015/10/28/news124369/

Metr. Alfeyev went out of his way to visit with an ailing Billy Graham at his home in North Carolina a year ago for his 96th birthday. https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/evangelicals-talking-with-orthodox/

Again, the attitude of my hierarchs toward Evangelicals seems very different from that displayed by several posters here.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Yet another post long on vitriol and short on facts.

Given the huge number of Orthodox in the US that have converted from Protestantism, including many on this board and a majority of priests in the Antiochian church in the US, your statement that Protestantism is "driving people away...from Orthodoxy" is demonstrably untrue.

If anything, the Holy Spirit is using Protestantism as a springboard into Orthodoxy, as occurred when so many of the Evangelical Orthodox Church became Orthodox in 1987.

Really? What about the thousands of people my age who had such negative experiences with Protestantism that not only have they turned away from Christianity they're no, hardened, militant anti-Theists, not just Atheists, anti-Theists? I am speaking from trying to reach out to 4 of my friends who's this happened for almost 13 years now trying to ring them back to no avail.

Virtually every negative thought people of my generation have about Christianity come from your typical WASP experience. You never hear ANYTHING about Orthodoxy or, for that matter, you don't even really hear about Catholicism except they had to sit through Mass and catechism and how boring and 'oppressive' that was. Plus again, the whole phenomena of 'prosperity gospel' and mega churches and all those scandals can't be denied either. What about those LDS people too?

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Thanks Jesus4Madrid for those pictures, it warms my heart. Gurney makes fair points about Protestant bashing, I mean not all protestants are bad. Am I the only one who will say on this board that despite his flaws, I like some of the work done by Billy Graham. He flawed, and trust me the "your saved, now go find a church close to you" message is wrong. However I met too many people who turned their lives over to Christ because of him. Now Franklin Graham it's too early to tell, but if Pat. Kyrill likes him he must be atleast decent.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Really? What about the thousands of people my age who had such negative experiences with Protestantism that not only have they turned away from Christianity they're no, hardened, militant anti-Theists, not just Atheists, anti-Theists? I am speaking from trying to reach out to 4 of my friends who's this happened for almost 13 years now trying to ring them back to no avail.

Virtually every negative thought people of my generation have about Christianity come from your typical WASP experience. You never hear ANYTHING about Orthodoxy or, for that matter, you don't even really hear about Catholicism except they had to sit through Mass and catechism and how boring and 'oppressive' that was. Plus again, the whole phenomena of 'prosperity gospel' and mega churches and all those scandals can't be denied either. What about those LDS people too?

I don't doubt your experience. Many ex-Orthodox have had bad experiences as well.

Rather, I object to your complete lack of nuance in this statement you made: "It's heretical foolishness that's driving people away; both from holy Orthodoxy and Christianity in general."