Shut Door

[djconklin]

I question because the evidence looks bad

1) This assumes facts not yet in evidence and thus any "research" that is being done on it suggests that it's being done not to find the facts but rather to support a pre-existing bias--and that's definietly not the way to go to find the truth.

2) "Evidence" can be manipulated and distorted in a number of ways:

a) sentences can be clipped: I have seen Rea clip sentences at the beginning and end without telling the reader he has done so--some of these can be seen at http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html

Here's one example (red was clipped):

But I am bound to say, that this seems contrary to the sayings of the Rabbis.] neither father nor mother [2 This disposes of the idea, that the Virgin-Mother was of direct Aaronic or Levitic descent.] must be of Levitic descent; and the child must be free from all such bodily blemishes as would have disqualified him for the priesthood, or, as it was expressed: 'the firstborn for the priesthood.' (Edersheim, see DA, chapter 5 at the above web site)

b) Sentences can have material dropped out of the middle of the sentence without telling the reader this has been done (the blue was ellipsed):

Strange that in the very centre of so broad and comprehensive a prophecy concerning Christ, such a minute and personal allusion to Mary should come in; a high honor put upon the mother of our Lord that her individual sorrows of her Son; and a singular token of the tender sympathy of Him by whom it was prompted, that now when her heart was filling with strange, bright hopes, now while her child was yet an infant, now ere the evil days drew on, when she should have to see him become the object of reproach and persecution, and stand herself to look at him upon that cross of shame and agony on which they hung him up to die—that now to temper her first-born joy, to prepare and fortify her for the bitter trials in store for her, this prophecy should have been thus early spoken.

c) Material can be ellipsed and you have no way of knowing if it is relevant or not, you have no way of knowing how much or how little was ellipsed (in one case Rea ellipsed a comma!).

d) Then there's the big question of how are you reading the "evidence". Do you read it in a prosecutorial manner? Or, do you read it giving every possible edge to the defendant like the Jewish judges would have done? Do you read the text(s) in a wooden and literalistic manner? There are people who say that EGW claimed that she got her words from God and they give you some quotes. But, when one reads the quotes in context (including historical and theological) it is quite obvious that she's responding to the theory behind their question and not to the words themselves.

I've already shown you that these people can't be trusted. Would you buy a used car from them?

but what would be the moitivation of the people to critics. why would they waste there time tearing apart a woman who was a true prophet. A false prophet I can see why.

It's the other way around.

It is also obvious that you are starting from an assumption that EGW is a false prophet. Therefore, anything you think you find is suspect.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1) This assumes facts not yet in evidence and thus any "research" that is being done on it suggests that it's being done not to find the facts but rather to support a pre-existing bias--and that's definietly not the way to go to find the truth.

2) "Evidence" can be manipulated and distorted in a number of ways:

b) Sentences can have material dropped out of the middle of the sentence without telling the reader this has been done (the blue was ellipsed)

: I don't disagree with you on those points. I don't by into the contradicted the bible argument 50 times. that would be too obvious. that is not one of my issues. the it is a sin to be sick quote. is taken out of context and other like it.


But you know what, you shoud see how the denomination does it. In Adventist World, an article entitled "A Corn Field Cleopas" C mervyan Maxwell, " he completey altered the reality of the event to make it look nicer then it was. Hiram Edson had been visiting a friend on OCT 25 1844 2 days after the great disappointment, he was walking throught the cornfield in order to avoid the ridicule of the people when he had is his moment inspriaton about the change of apartments in heaven. Here is Maxwell Perhaps to save time the took a shortcut across a field of corn" quoted from "Adventist World oct 2006 pg 35) he acts first like it is unknown why they did it and then tells us it was a time saving short. It was not a time saving shortcut but a facesaving short cut. that is a major shift in intent & meaning. i believe he does it knowingly and to make the reality of the event not seem so harsh. these people were being mocked and ridiculed for a failed prophetic movement, which they were trying to make sense of and a long comes this new theroy to "save the day" and "save face" that is the origin of the investigative, not through scholar ship. oops we made a mistake, here is an explination this will explain why chist didn't come back. It couldn't be that we were wrong and have to eat crow, no we had the event right we just got the application wrong. Can't you see how that might be a little fishy?

) Material can be ellipsed and you have no way of knowing if it is relevant or not, you have no way of knowing how much or how little was ellipsed (in one case Rea ellipsed a comma!)

.
CUTS BOTH WAYS. one of the reasons I am beginning to doubht is that the more I look into the evidence the more I find tampering with the facts by the SDA. for example: in regards to the "Isereal Dammond Trial" SDA add discriptive qualifers to read into the statements what the facts don't say. The transcript of the trial says the Ellen Harmon lay on the floor., that's all it says. the SDA researcher adds that she "lay quietly" on the floor, changing the facts and thus creating a more favorable impression. The critics have reported it AS IS. They did not say she lay noisily on the floor or lay on the floor talking to the negibhor. just the fact. That is credible to me. The critics have other statment by other people to bolster their claim.

d)Then there's the big question of how are you reading the "evidence". Do you read it in a prosecutorial manner?

now you are making claim about how I read you are ascribing motive to me. You are not giving me the benifit of the doubht that I might be an honest seeker Your arguements are Bogus. I agree that we must read it for what the author ment to say that there are methaphor's and analogies and context they must be taken as they were ment , I agreebut what happens if read it and I can't agree with your interpation? that is the problem, you don't acknowled that there is the possiblity that you might be wrong. what I see with the suportes is that they are afaid of the challange and want it to stay the same because they are afraid of change. I as what is the worst thing that would happen it EGW weren't a prophet nothing, people would stop saying we are a cult. The supporter are just as bad as the critics they charge. I have read some of the critics and some of there charges are stupid, but some are not so easily done away. The surporter cannot see how honest people might look at it and say the millerite movement failed and these are just abunch of people who don't want to let go and admit that they were wrong and now they have a prophet the will show them the way. hummmmmm???

these are the things that I see are a problem
1. The shut door - If it read as the critis say it does it is a huge problem
2. Iseral Damond trial - her recollection and the facts don't match I have read both and It is a big problem
3. The Law in galation and the 1888 conference - the reason why there was a fight in the first place was because of EGW's eailer statments against the postion
4. Investigative Judgement. - that is just bad scholarship. that is just as bad as the "rapture"theory.
5. 1919 bible conference - this one I am just looking into
but it look not good. I read about this in and SDA published book. and they admit it happened.
6. DM canwright- I have looked into the statements that he make and the statment EGW makes and I Have to side with him. even thought he is wrong on the Sabbath and state of the dead . He threw the baby out with the bath water. becaus ehe ws attacked
I

I've already shown you that these people can't be trusted. Would you buy a used car from them?

and you can. I have yet to see any evidence that prove she is, I have seen statment by the critis that if they are even remotely accurate. Are a huge problem

it's the other way around.

It is also obvious that you are starting from an assumption that EGW is a false prophet. Therefore, anything you think you find is suspect

.
It so obvious you are starting from the fact the she is a true prophet. She make the claim to be a prophet. she has to pass the test not me. 9 month ago I would have said you are fulll of it. I have read her writing all my life. quoted from them many times. why would I change my mind is I were not convinced. I've read the GC and The DA, S to C, still find much value in them, but I cannot say they are inspired for sure anymore. At least right now I am willing to change my mind, but I have got to see the facts, Sabbath, state of the dead, second coming, sipritual gifts and salvation by grace no problem, but EGW prophet, and christ in sanctuary. not sure. need more evidence. to be certian. it is hard for me to beleve that people who keep the sabbath and the state of the dead would not accept her if she was a real prophet. Other Sabbatarins would not Why? they agreed with her on these essintials why not the sanctuary too, or her prophetic calling. they were not in disagreement they were not apostates or rebels you cant say that.

 

[djconklin]

It so obvious you are starting from the fact the she is a true prophet.

I never EVER start any study with any assumptions. I have never EVER claimed EGW is a prophet.

We are done.

 

[Sophia7]

I've been trying to look at this issue as fairly as I can, so I've been reading The "Shut Door" Documents on the EGW Estate site. Their chronology is fairly comprehensive and reasonable.

On the other hand, some of their explanations of the quotes that don't appear to fit their positions don't make much sense, in my opinion. And I still have a big problem with the fact that James edited his wife's visions when publishing them to remove some of the references to the shut door. The whole appearance of a cover-up bothers me. I don't think that the church has been completely forthright in dealing with that. They have given the critics some of their ammunition.

The bottom line for me on this is that both sides have some legitimate arguments, and both sides have some questionable arguments. This is not something that I can use to draw a conclusion about whether EGW was a prophet because many of the issues involved here are way too open to subjective interpretation on both sides.

I'm moving on to study her predictions. I have some big concerns about that because if even one of her prophecies (that is, applying to her time and not to the future) wasn't fulfilled, then she can't be a true prophet.

 

[djconklin]

I would suggest finishing one project before moving on to the next. It is best to resolve all known "difficulties" to one's satisfaction (after much prayer!). This is in-line with the Biblical admonition that says we should be able to give an answer for what we believe.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Sophia wrote:

I'm moving on to study her predictions. I have some big concerns about that because if even one of her prophecies (that is, applying to her time and not to the future) wasn't fulfilled, then she can't be a true prophet.

Well that will not solve the problem either. If something she predicted does not occur they will simply say it was a conditional prophesy. Whether conditions are set or not it will be the claim (or I should say it is the claim). What I have seen is you can never dissuade someone of their belief in a prophet, it just does not work check with you local Latter day Saint and see. Even the chapter in the book 27 fundamental beliefs can only come up with vague prophecies of Ellen White that have come to pass, well that is being generous what they have does not even say they have come to pass but they believe they are coming to pass.

Here is what it says:

The Application of Prophetic Tests. How does Ellen White's ministry measure against the Biblical tests of a prophet?

225​

1. Agreement with the Bible. Her abundant literary production includes tens of thousands of Bible texts, coupled often with detailed expositions. Careful study has shown that her writings are consistent, accurate, and in full agreement with the Scriptures.
2. The accuracy of predictions. Ellen White's writings contain a relatively small number of predictions. Some are in the process of being fulfilled, while others still await fulfillment. But those that can be tested have been fulfilled with an amazing accuracy. Two instances that demonstrate her prophetic insights follow.
a. The rise of modern spiritualism. In 1850, when spiritualism—the movement that touts communication with the spirit world and the dead—had but just arisen, Ellen White identified it as a last-day deception and predicted its growth. Although at that time the movement was decidedly anti-Christian, she foresaw that this hostility would change, and that it would become respectable among Christians.14 Since that time spiritualism has spread worldwide, gaining millions of adherents. Its anti-Christian stance has changed; indeed, many call themselves Christian spiritualists, claiming that they have the true Christian faith and that "Spiritualists are the only religionists who have used the promised gifts of Christ, by which gifts they heal the sick, and demonstrate a future conscious and progressive existence."15 They even assert that spiritualism "gives you the knowledge of all the great systems of religion, and still more, it gives you more knowledge of the Christian Bible than all the Commentaries combined. The Bible is a book of Spiritualism."16
b. A close cooperation between Protestants and Roman Catholics. During Ellen White's life a gulf existed between Protestants and Roman Catholics that seemed to preclude any cooperation between the two. Anti-Catholicism raged among Protestants. She prophesied that major changes within Protestantism would bring about a departure from the faith of the Reformation. Consequently, differences between Protestants and Catholics would diminish, leading to a bridging of the gulf separating the two.17
The years since her death have seen the rise of the ecumenical movement, the establishment of the World Council of Churches, the Catholic Church's Vatican II, and Protestant ignorance and even out-right rejection of the Reformation views of prophetic interpretation.18 These major changes have broken down barriers between Protestants and Catholics, leading to growing cooperation.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-17.htm

The first one there agreement with the Bible is questionable but you can be sure that the Latter Day Saints and Christian Scientists and others with so called prophets will assert something very similar.

You may remember from history that the 1800's were actually a hotbed for both those issues, riots against Catholics was not uncommon and even in Lincoln's White house they held Seances. Theosophy was huge. So if you were to make a prediction of things going away from Christianity you would say that Spiritulism would increase and since they also had this major fear of Catholics becoming once again a persecuting power you would have to say that they somehow manage to connect to Protestants or the Catholics would end up being the ones persecuted as was currently happening. So you can see why if they consider those prophecies to be amazingly accurate they very purposefully do not mention the one's that failed such as her belief that those who saw the dark day and the stars fall would be the generation that saw the second coming. Or her statement at the conference where some would be food for worms and some present would go through the seven last plagues and some translated.

 

[djconklin]

On conditional prophecy see http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/1856visn.html (note that the Bible texts don't say that they are conditional).

Four Bible Tests of the True Prophet: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/bhp/bhpc06.html

 

[Sophia7]

Well that will not solve the problem either. If something she predicted does not occur they will simply say it was a conditional prophesy. Whether conditions are set or not it will be the claim (or I should say it is the claim). What I have seen is you can never dissuade someone of their belief in a prophet, it just does not work

That's true, but my goal is not to dissuade anyone else; I just want to be fully convinced in my own mind.

 

[Sophia7]

On conditional prophecy see http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/1856visn.html (note that the Bible texts don't say that they are conditional).

Four Bible Tests of the True Prophet: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/bhp/bhpc06.html

Thanks for the links.

 

[djconklin]

Sophia,

You're welcome!

Years ago I dealt with some Bible critics. They presents lists of over 100 alleged errors and contradicitions in the Bible. At first I was amazed. I hadn't heard anything like that! So, I picked some of the easiest one's I could find and checked them out. It turned out that the critics had created these alleged errors and contradictions because they had read the text simplistically and woodenly. In addition, they failed to read lexicons which gave the definitions for the translated words. And these critics were claiming that it was the Christians who failed to read books! From this I learned a couple of lessons, the most important one for this thread is, that I am now more sure that the Bible is what it says it is and that the traditional explanatrions are more accurate than anything the critics have ever said on the subject. Another lesson I have learned is that this kind of research and learning experience can be applied to Ellen White and what the SDA church teaches. And I get the same results as I did with the Bible critics.

 

[Sophia7]

I haven't read the book yet, but for anyone who is interested, Graeme Bradford's new book, More Than a Prophet, is available online for free, with permission of the author and Samuele Bacchiocchi (who published it):
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/bradford/index.htm

 

[reddogs]

From a short over view that Dr. Jerry Moon uses in one of his classes:

STEPS IN THE CHANGING USAGE OF THE TERM "SHUT DOOR"
Jerry Moon, revised 2002​

1. Origin: Matt. 25:10-12.
"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
Here the term refers to a "close of probation."

2. November 1844: Millerites believe door is shut.
William Miller: "We have done our work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake[n] a formal church. God in His providence has shut the door; we can only stir one another up to be patient, and be diligent to make our calling and election sure" (Advent Herald, Dec. 11, 1844, quoted by A. L. White in Ellen G. White 1:60 [1 Bio 60]).
Here the term "shut door" refers to the beliefs that (1) the 2300-day prophecy ended on Oct. 22, 1844; and (2) probation for sinners did close on October 22, 1844.

3. December 1844: Millerites have given up their belief that the door is shut. "James White reported in 1847 that: "When she [Ellen] received her first vision, December 1844, she and all the band [the group of Advent believers] in Portland, Maine . . . had given up the midnight cry, and shut door, as being in the past" (Word to the Little Flock, p. 22). In other words, they assumed that the 2300 days had not ended yet. Writing to Joseph Bates on July 13, 1847, Ellen White declared: "At the time I had the vision of the midnight cry [December 1844], I had given it up [as having occured] in the past and thought it future, as also most of the band had" (Letter 3, 1847, quoted by A. L. White, 1 Bio 60-61).
Here the term refers to two concepts that were held as one: (1) that the 2300 days had ended October 22, 1844; and (2) that probation closed October 22, 1844.
By December 1844, Ellen Harmon, James White, and most of the Millerites had given up both these aspects of their Advent experience.

4. December, 1844: Ellen Harmon's first vision convinced her that #(1) above was true, and she apparently assumed that therefore #(2) was true also.

5. February 1845: Ellen Harmon's "Bridegroom Vision" led her to begin differentiating the two earlier meanings of the "Shut Door."
(1) She continued to believe that a genuine fulfillment of prophecy had occurred on October 22, 1844 and that those who had deliberately and knowingly rejected that message had been "left in darkness."
(2) She now believed, however, that for those who had never heard the Advent message with convicting power, probation was still open. Here is Marion Stowell's report of a conversation with Ellen Harmon in 1845:
"During Miss Harmon's (now Mrs. White's) visit to Paris, Maine, in the summer of 1845, I stated to her the particulars of a dear friend of mine whose father had prevented her attending our meetings; consequently she had not rejected light. She smilingly replied, `God never has shown me that there is no salvation for such persons. It is only those who have had the light of truth presented to them and knowingly rejected it" [to whom the door is shut] (1 Bio 96-97).
It appears that the idea of a general close of probation in 1844 was given up by Ellen White at least by the summer of 1845, but she did not reach a fuller understanding of the "shut door" until 1849.

6. March 24, 1849. Vision of "The Open and the Shut Door," Early Writings, 42-45.
Quoting Rev 3:7-8, she said that "Jesus had shut the door of the holy place" and "opened the door into the most holy" (EW 42). On October 22, 1844, His most-holy-place ministry began. This involved increased light and increased responsibility (cf. GC 424-425). Now the term "shut door" is connected with Rev 3:7-8 and refers to the change of Christ's heavenly ministry from the holy place to the most holy place.

7. 1849-1850: Conversions of persons who had not previously been Millerites reinforced the conviction that October 22, 1844, had not witnessed a general close of probation. These individuals included Hiram and Mrs. Patch, Heman Churchill, and J. H. Waggoner in 1850 (1 Bio 263-266).

8. 1874: Miles Grant, a first-day Adventist minister, charged that E. G. White "had declared on the basis of the visions that probation for the world had closed." She replied that "with my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in `44 I did believe that no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted" (Letter 2, 1874, quoted in 1 Bio 259, emphasis supplied). To the contrary, it was her visions that "led [the early Adventists] out of the extreme view of the shut door" (J. N. Loughborough, Review and Herald, Sept. 25, 1866, cited in 1 Bio 264).

9. The Principle
Early Writings, 45: "It is a fearful thing to treat lightly the truth which has convinced our understanding and touched our hearts. We cannot with impunity reject the warnings which God in mercy sends us." [Examples: the flood in Noah's day, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the words of Christ, ‘Your house is left unto you desolate,’ and the warning of 2 Thess 2:10-12.] "As they reject the teachings of His Word, God withdraws His Spirit, and leaves them to the deceptions which they love" (emphasis supplied). The operative condition is the first sentence of this paragraph: "It is a fearful thing" to "reject" that which we consciously recognize to be truth.
On the other hand, there are those who have rejected information which they sincerely believed to be error, and this, though unfortunate, does not involve guilt. "The Lord has His representatives in all the churches. These persons have not had the special testing truths for these last days presented to them under circumstances that brought conviction to heart and mind; therefore they have not, by rejecting light, severed their connection with God. Many there are who have faithfully walked in the light that has shone upon their pathway. They hunger to know more of the ways and works of God. All over the world men and women are looking wistfully to heaven. Prayers and tears and inquiries go up from souls longing for light, for grace, for the Holy Spirit. Many are on the very verge of the kingdom, waiting only to be gathered in" (Testimonies, 6:70-71, emphasis supplied).
"The Lord desires His chosen servants to learn how to unite together in harmonious effort. It may seem to some that the contrast between their gifts and the gifts of a fellow laborer is too great to allow them to unite in harmonious effort; but when they remember that there are varied minds to be reached, and that some will reject the truth as it is presented by one laborer, only to open their hearts to God’s truth as it is presented in a different manner by another laborer, they will hopefully endeavor to labor together in unity" (Testimonies, 9:145, emphasis supplied).

10. Further study:
A. L. White, Ellen G. White, 1:256-270 (1 Bio 256-270), also 60-61, 78, 96, 140, 160-161, 191-192.
F. D. Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics, 161-252.
SDA Encyclopedia, "Open and Shut Door."
Herbert E. Douglass, Messenger of the Lord, 500-512, 549-569 -- web links previously given on a different thread
E. G. White, Great Controversy, 428-431.

Have to go over this..