show me how to forgive

[Mini]

Some time ago, I complained to our minister about a church worker drivng children around without ensuring they were properly strapped in. The minister was not really interested. Finally we did get the rules of the minibus altered so that it complied with the law. Obviously I have witnesses to back up my alleagtions, but he never spoke to them. There have been many allegations and untruths thrown around. I prayed very hard for the worker concerned to tell the truth. She never did.

Not having my prayers answered and the minister making many allegations about me left my faith destroyed. My husband went to see him about my lack of faith. He never asked what the problem was, he just said I needed professional help, (implying I am mentally unstable). He claimed I was a nasty trouble maker, he said he washed his hands of me, and I told one of my daughter's not to go to church. He also said I was manipulative and a liar. He admitted that he never asked the worker if my allegations were true. He said she is above reproach and would never do what I accused her of. (We recorded two of his conversations with my husband and can prove exactly what he said about me.)

I have slowly rebuilt my faith, but seem to be unable to forgive the minister. Mainly due to the fact that he denies ever saying such things about me. I do not want to return to his church, but unfortunately my husband and three of my daughters sing in the choir. If I go to another church my husband would follow and this would hurt other members of the congregation. I hate upsetting people but want to return to church. I cannot do this unless I can forgive the minister.

How can I do this? I have never felt unable to forgive anyone before.

Mini

 

[Dad Ernie]

Some time ago, I complained to our minister about a church worker drivng children around without ensuring they were properly strapped in. The minister was not really interested. Finally we did get the rules of the minibus altered so that it complied with the law. Obviously I have witnesses to back up my alleagtions, but he never spoke to them. There have been many allegations and untruths thrown around. I prayed very hard for the worker concerned to tell the truth. She never did.

Not having my prayers answered and the minister making many allegations about me left my faith destroyed. My husband went to see him about my lack of faith. He never asked what the problem was, he just said I needed professional help, (implying I am mentally unstable). He claimed I was a nasty trouble maker, he said he washed his hands of me, and I told one of my daughter's not to go to church. He also said I was manipulative and a liar. He admitted that he never asked the worker if my allegations were true. He said she is above reproach and would never do what I accused her of. (We recorded two of his conversations with my husband and can prove exactly what he said about me.)

I have slowly rebuilt my faith, but seem to be unable to forgive the minister. Mainly due to the fact that he denies ever saying such things about me. I do not want to return to his church, but unfortunately my husband and three of my daughters sing in the choir. If I go to another church my husband would follow and this would hurt other members of the congregation. I hate upsetting people but want to return to church. I cannot do this unless I can forgive the minister.

How can I do this? I have never felt unable to forgive anyone before.

Greetings Mini,

Something I don't understand is what your husband and kids "being in the choir" have anything to do with staying or leaving that particular church? Does your husband think you need counciling? Does he agree with you about the situation? If what you say is true, then I believe an unrepairable situation has developed and you should probably move on. There are other churches that when you join, ask if you or any members of your family have any "gifts" you wish recognized and utilized in the church.

Do you have a good rapport with your husband? Do you "honor" him as head of the household and YOUR covering as well as your children's? Why isn't he taking the lead? Does he see your emotional state over the situation?

These are important questions you have to ask yourself. I am taking sides with NO ONE, please understand that.

As for forgiveness, if the root of bitterness is not dealt with, it will fester and grow and you DO need to deal with that. Ask, plead, pray DILIGENTLY that the Lord take that bitterness out of you and that you have a true and sincere forgiveness regarding the situation.

As for your "faith" being seriously damaged, who did you "have faith in" to begin with? God or man? If your "faith in God" was damaged, then you have serious problems in understanding just what faith is and who is the Author and Finisher of Your Faith. If your "faith in man" was damaged, well, all I can say is "get over it", while you are in this world you will have tribulation. Pray for those who hurt you and despicably use you.

I do not say these things to hurt you, I know the suffering you must be going through. All of us have been there at one time or other in our lives and you are not alone. It is a matter of "growing up in Christ" and being a mature Christian. These things shall pass and you will be the better for it if you let Jesus in to handle it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[bliz]

I know it can hurt when the people who are supposed to help you are the ones doing the hurting! I too have been hurt by a pastor and ended up leaving a church. It is a nasty mess that can leave wounds for some time.

What you have is a conflict, and conflict is an opportunity to bring glory to God. I would strongly encourage you to check out www.hispeace.org This is the site for Peacemaker Ministries, A Christian organization that teaches conflict resolution from a Biblical perspective. If you are not able or willing to turn your back and walk away from this conflict (and it is a Biblical choice to leave it alone) then you need to follow the steps to manage conflict.

Despite all our talk about wanting to do things in a Biblical manner, most of us handle conflict as the world does. The process outlined on their web site - at the far left of the first page - has been very sucessful in resolving small neighborhood disputes and mulit-milllion $ conflicts between Christian organizations and companies.

It is hard to heal and forgive if you have not made every effort to reconcile. It is not always easy to do so, but when you can resolve differences and can go forward, it is so pleasing to God and helps to build His kingdom.

 

[Mini]

Greetings Mini,

Something I don't understand is what your husband and kids "being in the choir" have anything to do with staying or leaving that particular church? Does your husband think you need counciling? Does he agree with you about the situation? If what you say is true, then I believe an unrepairable situation has developed and you should probably move on. There are other churches that when you join, ask if you or any members of your family have any "gifts" you wish recognized and utilized in the church.

Do you have a good rapport with your husband? Do you "honor" him as head of the household and YOUR covering as well as your children's? Why isn't he taking the lead? Does he see your emotional state over the situation?

These are important questions you have to ask yourself. I am taking sides with NO ONE, please understand that.

As for forgiveness, if the root of bitterness is not dealt with, it will fester and grow and you DO need to deal with that. Ask, plead, pray DILIGENTLY that the Lord take that bitterness out of you and that you have a true and sincere forgiveness regarding the situation.

As for your "faith" being seriously damaged, who did you "have faith in" to begin with? God or man? If your "faith in God" was damaged, then you have serious problems in understanding just what faith is and who is the Author and Finisher of Your Faith. If your "faith in man" was damaged, well, all I can say is "get over it", while you are in this world you will have tribulation. Pray for those who hurt you and despicably use you.

I do not say these things to hurt you, I know the suffering you must be going through. All of us have been there at one time or other in our lives and you are not alone. It is a matter of "growing up in Christ" and being a mature Christian. These things shall pass and you will be the better for it if you let Jesus in to handle it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

My husband is a high functioning Aspergers person. He is having great difficulty understanding why the minister said what he did, or why it hurt me so much. If he does not understand something, he does not deal with it. He has absolutely no concept of empathy or sympathy. He said that the minister is wrong. That is it as far as he is concerned. My going to another church would be a very bad idea because my husband believes a family should worship together, therfore he would follow. He is not good at dealing with change.

Neither my husband or I are head of the household, we work as a team. It has worked very well for twenty years and for four daughters. I am not sure what you mean by COVERING. I do not honour my husband as head of the household in the convention sense. I cannot and will not always do a he bids because his social understandings can bea little unconventional, (his Aspergers side). But I have the greatest respect for him, he is exceptionally honest and moral, could never do or say something if he thought it would hurt someone or something, he is highly intelligent, and when his shell lifts occasionally the most loving man in the world.

Why is the choir important? A very good friend runs the choir. She would be very hurt by the family departing, so would many others within the choir and church. He is accepted, liked, respected and nobody minds his pecularities. (This is important to me.) My husband is the only tenor (a strong one at that), he also plays the piano and occasionally, when required, the organ for the church. My daughters are talented musically, 1 having attained the highest award in the country, another doing the award this year. I still manage all the choir music, etc. behind the scenes.

I have never said that the minister destroyed my faith, just that what occurred led to its destruction. As far as I am concerned it is my faith, therefore my responsibilty. That is why I have spent almost a year rebuilding it. I prayed very hard for The People concerned to tell the truth, but they did not. I did not understand that God does not interfere with 'free will'. If he did, we would not have to be responsible for our own moral behaviour, and the choices we make. That was my lacking. The main problem came when we apporoached the minister to get some help for my ailing faith. (Only ailing at that point, and would not have been destroyed had I been able to discuss what was going wrong.) He stated he washed his hands of me. I felt very rejected, that the church was not a good place. It is like a parent turning away a hurt child. God was there with me, but the pain of such rejection stopped me from realising it at the time.

I never said I was bitter towards the minister. I have had to see him on several occasions and have never felt bitter towards him, never rude nor confrontational. Hurt, exceptionally hurt, yes, bitter, no. If he asked me to do anything, I would do it. If he needed help, I would offer it. I feel that I have not forgiven him because what he said and to whom, without finding the truth first, still hurts. I have never challenged him further than telling him what he said was untrue. But he categorically denied saying the things.

My problem is that I would feel hippocritical worshipping under his guidance, knowing deep down inside, I had not truely forgiven him. Therefore, I have to find a way to forgive this man. If it were just me, I would attend else where.

Mini

 

[Mini]

Bliz,

Thankyou for the website. I will have a look.

I don't feel like I am in a conflict. Just that for some reason unable to forgive the man. That I see as my failing.

As A kid, a wise man taught me that saying sorry means you will try not to do the same thing again. When I say sorry, that is exactly what I mean. When someone says sorry to me, I take it as that, and find it incredibly easy to forgive and forget.

Maybe it is because the minister denied what he said, stating it was a "Complete fabrication", that I cannot forgive him. I am very protective of my hubby, he cannot knowingly tell a lie. People saying such things about him makes me very cross.

Mini

 

[Rapha]

The thing tha helps me forgive is just remembering that I must do it in order to receive it. The minister who has wronged you - "pray for those that despitefully use you", and "bless them that curse you" - the words of Jesus. This is what He did for us.
Also you might want to think of the devil as the one responsible for this uproar when in truth, he actually is because the scriptures tell us that it is not flesh and blood that we fight against, but evil spiritual rulers and powers in high places such as satan and his ranking demons. Even Michael was detained by the Prince of Persia, a demon power, before being able to answer Daniels 21 day fast and prayer. Pray for this man and love him. Do good deeds towards him and perhaps you will be the instrument God uses to make big changes for everybody at your church. I know it isn't easy to do, but that is what Jesus makes as our goal.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Lu 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Eph 6:12 For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

Ro 12:20 Instead, do what the Scriptures say: "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink, and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you."

 

[KleinerApfel]

Dear Mimi,

It does sound as if your current church is probably a good place for your family, because of your involvement and the acceptance you've all found there.
Your pastor is a big problem though.

I speak from experience when I say this;

A church with problems may in fact be where God wants you for a time. Not always, but it can be.
Even a church with a leader who fails to deal with, inflames, or even is the cause of those problems, can still be where God has placed you for a purpose.
But only you and He can know that, so I pray you will find peace about whether or not to remain there.

If your pastor had admited his wrongdoing, was truly repentant, said he'd take better care of you in the future, and asked you to forgive him, or if he had some excuse or mitigating circumstance, it would probably be easier to forgive him.

But God asks us to forgive the bits for which there is no excuse, and to forgive those who don't deserve it. The way He forgives, in fact.

Otherwise it's justice, not forgiveness. Do you see the difference? Most of us think that if someone says sorry for hurting us without meaning to, then tries to make amends, then we need to forgive them.

In fact, they are helping to reconcile themselves to us, and it is only fair to meet them halfway.

What God requires of us is much harder.

He forgives us for the sins we knowingly commit, with no excuse, and for which we deserve judgement.

That is why we find it so hard to forgive - it's the bit that is left over when you've tried to think of every way to let someone off and there isn't one.

A big help to me was when it was pointed out that forgiving is a choice, an act of the will, not the emotions.

Choose to say to God that you forgive this man, and believe that the transaction has been done in heaven from that moment, then try to live according to it. Tell your family you have done so, and lead them with you in setting aside the grief and bitterness.
It sounds harsh, but it is the only thing that works.

It's late here, and I'm tired and I really hope I'm not sounding harsh, I don't mean to, and I really do know from experience how hard it all is.

But be aware that your wounds will take time to heal. When you remember it all and are hurt again, remind God that you have handed it over to Him, and ask Him to help you keep behaving accordingly - ie. not holding grudges, being open to any sign of reconciliation.

Reconciliation is only possible when both parties are willing, so it may be that you are stuck in that area until he repents.

Maybe when you have taken the step of forgiving this man, you will be much more able to concentrate on discerning God's leading for you and your family regarding where to worship. Don't make a hasty decision anyway.

I MUST get to bed!
I don't know if this helps, I only hope I don't make you feel worse.

Goodnight God bless, Susana

 

[Blessed-one]

i totally agree with 'The Lord is my banner', you can learn much and grow much in a place where problems occur, and it is in there, that God puts you... ultimately for everyone to grow.

how to forgive? be patient about it. Don't ever let haste be the reason to give up.. it took me years to forgive the people at my church, so it was a gradual change for me.

 

[Rie]

To help me to forgive, I try to remember that for every "speck I see in someone elses eye, there's a plank in mine" (paraphrased). The Lord has been speaking to me about judgement... I have a very difficult problem with judgement, especially when it comes to my husband! Lord knows I have been where you are... I'm not implying anything. I'm just saying that I find it most difficult to forgive those whom I see myself in.

 

[rainbowprism]

Your faith in Jesus is detroyed because of something a person did?!

 

[Mini]

No.

Misunderstanding God, what prayers he does and does not answer caused doubts in my faith. Going to the minister for help, and hearing he washes his hands of you merely conpounded the problem. Like I said. the minister's actions led to a collapse of my faith. But as far I am concerned, my faith, my responsibilty.
I made the mistake of praying that someone would tell the truth. But apparently God will not force someone to go against their will. I did not understand why my prayers for truth were unanswered.

Mini

 

[KleinerApfel]

Mini,

I just read through your OP again. It's more complex than I realised from the first reading. I see at least 3 issues:

1/
Forgiveness.

I think you've had a great deal of useful advice so far, so that's up to you now. Forgive anyway, then deal with the other two issues separately.

2/
Doubt.

Don't be unduly alarmed when it happens - doubts are a normal part of faith. We tend to experience them when prayers appear to be unanswered, and they can also be a sign of imminent growth, surprisingly.

You may already realise this - as you say, you have struggled but still have your faith, and realise it's your own responsibility.
Sounds like a growth spurt to me!

BUT maybe you need more support.
Although it's your responsibility, that doesn't mean you have to do it alone. The church is a family, a team, a body, and we're supposed to carry each other's burdens.

Have you considered Christian counselling?
Not because you're weak, unstable, or wrong, because you are not, but because it's often the only way in modern society that we can find a safe space to really be heard while we work through things.
It may be especially valuable for you since your nearest and dearest has difficulty understanding emotional issues because of his condition.

Don't write it off simply because your minister suggested it for apparently selfish reasons - ie. to get you out of his hair.

3/ Your Minister

There is a real possibility that your pastor is being spiritually abusive, in which case, no matter how happy your family are in this church, you very possibly do need to pull out.

However, you need to be sure that this is not just a personal issue, and do your utmost to explore ways to reconcile yourself there.

If you have church wardens or deacons or pastoral assssistants who you feel avble to trust, I would suggest approaching one of them to get another opinion.

I came across these points to check against if you are concerned about spiritual abuse in your church:

*Is the leadership accountable to anyone?

*Does the leader preach submission to their authority regardless of whether you think they're right or not?

*Does your leader EVER admit to being wrong? Apologise to anyone?

*Does he calim to hear God on behalf of the whole church?

*Does he claim this church has been singled out by God for special favour?

*Are other churches or ministires dismissed as backsliders?

*Are all who are chosen for leadership of one mind on authority?

*Do you have difficulty separating in your mind the relationships you have with God and with your leader?

*How does the leadership deal with criticim? Are critics marginalised, bullied, viewed as being a problem?

*Does your leader regularly impress the church with his spiritual credentials; eg. how long he prays each morning?

*Are those who choose to leave told that God will never bless them again?

As I read through that list, I have to say it sounds from your OP that this just might be happening. Even a couple of the above points in a church should be cause for concern.

You really need to talk this out in great detail with a Christian who is not involved with you or your church at all, to get a balanced perspective.
Counselling doesn't have to be heavy, deep, months long. Just a handful of sessions are often sufficient. Please consider it.

God bless you, Susana