Shouldn't Christians protect animals from extinction?

[dad]

Er, that seems to be the luck of homeless people setting up camp on public land.

Living in a home they were evicted from, in that environmentally sensitive area, was still a home. Guess the animals are better than poor people.

lol they own a million dollar home. It's unlikely they will live out their days in motel-8.

How would you know? What if they liked their home, and didn't have long to live?

Again, what in the world are you talking about? Are you hitting the vino tonight?

Newsflash, many environmentalists are filthy rich. I linked a few, like the Rothschild child, and Gore.

Again, I don't get your point. Are you saying that green people should only be wealthy or poor?

I am saying stop picking on old people with overvalued homes, insinuating you don't care about them, because their newt stolen home was expensive.

If it were to be the gov than I imagine it would be more than words. I know you're not suggesting violent undertones given your post back a few about violent AR and enviros.

If you were the house thief with the law on your side, no, I would not resist. I might be tempted to squash those darned newts, mind you, in protest.

It's so hard trying to figure out what you're talking about. gospel for the greenies? what does this mean? all are suspect of what?

Suspect of being nuts. In other words the bible tells us what is what, so if someone rapes a kid, we know that is evil.
But the environmentalists nuts have nothing saying they are doing the green thing wrong.

I would love to hear/read what you do that greenies would or wouldn't like...something positive though.

Well, just look to bible descriptions of the new earth, and even the millennium. No more destroying, hurting, war, etc. Animals will again be used a lot for people of the world. To stop evil men, however, God will have to use force. Until then, they can't be stopped.

Stop acting as if anyone forces you to not care about anything but yourself. You are the one boasting your unwarranted superiority and it will always be recieved poorly.

Stop pretending those that won't worship the creation more than the creator with you don't care about anything but themselves. Stop claiming the bible declaring man as in the image of God, and a little lower than the angels is unwarranted. And don't think I care about the opinions of people that don't like it. They can lump it.

If you don't care about the environment than you don't care about humans.

Caring about God's earth does not mean freaking out, evicting people, poisoning meat, spiking trees, putting sealers out of work, and holding one's nose up in the air. Get over it.

What affects animals, affects humans. That's the reality.

So what? Winter affects them. Sunshine affects them. Am I to curl up and cry about things out of our control?

this is not a response to your claims that it costs more to take care of our environment. Try again.

No idea what you are talking about. Most of the money wasted on 'taking care of the environment' is wasted, anyhow, that I can see.
From coal burning power plants to the formerly sacred recycle programs, many now question the new religion.

"For years, recycling has been held up as the best way to deal with waste. It's time that myth was exploded," said one deputy council leader in southern England.
A spokesman for East Sussex County Council, which plans to build an incinerator, said, "It's idealistic to think that everything can be recycled. It's just not possible. Incineration has an important role to play."
The Swedish group said that the "vision of a recycling market booming by 2010 was a dream 40 years ago and is still just a dream.""
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Environment/myth_recycling.htm

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The Nanticoke coal-fired electricity generating station on Lake Erie is Canada's single largest source of air pollution. This gigantic coal-fired power plant -- the largest in North America -- produces a toxic brew of pollutants, including sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, lead, cancerous heavy metals and arsenic..."
http://www.electricitychoices.org/coal.html

[/FONT]

Spiritually obese? What are you talking about? hmmm, you equate obesity with gluttony. I've never considered it that way but it's food for thought.

So how are those that do not have endangered animals as top priority 'gluttons'?? They eat something?

Do you really believe that animal extinctions caused by humans don't have consequences that do and will affect humans?

Wicked humans do things that have consequences. That is the nature of the beast. The problem is the wickedness, not the ways it pops up.

Over fishing is a good example. It wreaks havoc on marine ecosystems; destroys food supplies for other species; and in turn threatens our water supply. We don't exist in little bubbles. How you could think otherwise boggles me.

I am not one to think in terms of in the box, I assure you. Wicked man fishes wickedly, this is no surprise. If it were up to me, I would make em all use little nets, and smaller boats, so they couldn't devastate the sea. It is not up to me, at the moment. So I need not bear their shame, and guilt.

Yes, and in the garden Adam, Eve, et al were all vegetarian and considerate of eachother. You in turn prefer to embrace the fall.

How do I do that, by eating meat??? False, I got saved, which reverses the fall's effects. I advise the same for all men. That way, there will be no wicked, and we can all live happily ever after. They can get to beating their weapons into plough shares.

You just love the sin don't you? No need to even think about being the way your god intended humans to be...no, that's too much to ask. You prefer to embrace all the fall had to offer. That's just great.

Think about it all you like it won't help. To get that way, we need to get saved.

If you want to ask questions of enviro's, AR folk, AW folk than you have the opportunity because there are some in this thread. The person that started this thread is not the AR movement, a famous person etc. He's CF member. A real person you could, if you wanted, engage with.

Then, if he differs in what the greens are doing, he can say so.

You are apathetic to your environment.

No, I just realize it is screwed. Nothing much I can do about it.
I read what some propose and just laugh.
"(CNSNews.com) - As environmentalists celebrate the 34th annual Earth Day, some in the green movement are now advocating "diaper-free" babies to help save the planet.

"There is a way to have a baby and NOT use diapers," says one website advocating diaperless babies. Parents are urged to get in tune with their infant's body signals and hold babies over toilets, buckets and shrubbery or any other convenient receptacle when nature calls.
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/environmental_wackos/

Scientists have developed a jab to stop sheep belches and farts from damaging the environment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/sep/23/science.research

"incredibly, so determined was she that the terrible "mistake" of pregnancy should never happen again, that she begged the doctor who performed the abortion to sterilise her at the same time.
He refused, but Toni - who works for an environmental charity - "relentlessly hunted down a doctor who would perform the irreversible surgery.

"Having children is selfish. It's all about maintaining your genetic line at the expense of the planet," says Toni, 35.
"Every person who is born uses more food, more water, more land, more fossil fuels, more trees and produces more rubbish, more pollution, more greenhouse gases, and adds to the problem of over-population."
While most parents view their children as the ultimate miracle of nature, Toni seems to see them as a sinister threat to the future."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=495495&in_page_id=1879

Whether or not he is seen or not is irrelevant to us taking action and modifying behavior so that it fits with our environment to benefit us and our planets inhabitants over all. If there was a god I don't doubt for a second that s/he would be in favor of her/his children caring for her creation to the best of our ability.

You need to realize the limitations of His children's abilities. And not worry about the rest. Relax.

"In an effort to help save the environment, U.S. singer Sheryl Crow is calling on everyone to limit the amount of toilet paper used "in any one sitting" to one square...

Crow acknowledges there could be occasions when the one-square limit might not suffice, such as "on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required."
She writes that when she presented the idea to her younger brother, he went a step further, suggesting that people could "just wash the one square out."
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/04/23/crow.html?ref=rss

Looking at a few of her song titles, I have to wonder.

No One Said It Would Be Easy

Strong Enough

My Favorite Mistake

Anything But Down

Resuscitation

Hole In My Pocket

I Don't Wanna Know

God Bless This Mess

Out Of Our Heads

Make It Go Away

There Goes The Neighborhood

. You keep equating giving a hoot with making animals gods and that's offensive and so off on many levels.

Giving my house up to a newt is making a god of them, face it.

Not only are you indifferent but you are disrespectful of those that don't share your indifference.

You are indifferent to more time honored and biblical principles, cry me a river.

First don't skew the story. If they were to old folk that were ending up homeless because of newts I'd be the first to yelp over it.

They didn't look like spring chickens to me. Maybe if they were in their 90ies you would start to have compassion??

You're using millionaires as an example and it doesn't fly. Be reasonable.

Can you name many movie stars that are not either environmentalists, or rich? How about the ones I mentioned already, and many many others? Being rich has nothing to do with one's religion.

And as far as god working on the hearts of men...what in the world do you think we've been discussing here?

Greenies shaking men down??

Obviously people can move for change if they don't care. Caring would require a heart, not indifference. Instead of addressing that you shun those that do have a heart.

Caring also requires power. If all you are talking about is reducing the number of tissue sheets people use, or shaking out babies over bushes in parks, I would think that has less to do with the heart than the head.

The majority, christians, have opted out of a church run state. That does not mean you don't have schools to pray in so you need not complain about it.

Prayer, and the bible are as illegal as drugs in public schools, in case you missed that.

I could care less really as long as you don't use my tax dollars to fund your prayer sessions.

Or you use mine to fund your godless propaganda stations.

Christians, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, Muslims (insert whoever I'm missing) should and do have the right to pray all they want, whenever, where ever.

Hindus have their own states. So do Muslims.As do Buddhists. There, the majority beliefs are respected. Why would you refuse to do the same where Christians are a majority??

Any child has the right to pray at a public school. You just don't have the right to force others to witness or participate. I think that's fair.

That is baloney.
"Twelve students at Heritage High School in Vancouver, WA, were suspended last Friday after continuing to meet for morning prayer in the commons area of the school,..:"
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/mar/07030609.html

Your attitude is so prevelant and not just with enviro stuff but with politics, law, culture. Nobody is short-sighted enough to think one person can solve global or regional issues. Solutions require the joint efforts of many and your attitude is a hinderance to such efforts.

Except for one little thing, we are not all brothers and sisters here. There is no brotherhood of man. People can do nice things, and try not to hurt animals, and the earth, etc, that is all very well and good. But no getting together will change the fact this world is run by evil men. Sinful men and women that would destroy this planet, if not for the direct intervention of God. Kicking old folks or homeless people out of their homes for the sake of animals just will not save the planet. No one is going to get together to do that, get over it.

Cuss the greenies all you want but I've seen fruits from their labor. It was CWA that cleaned up the jersey shore in the 80s and fought polluters in the 90's from dumping chemical waste in the great lakes. Even today though it's not safe to consume more than 4-5 oz of fish/week due to mecury levels and it's issues greenies still confront.

That was something that needed to get done. Fish with 2 heads and full of poisons should tell us that. Millions of people live around those waters, and fixing it was a self preservation thing. Even wicked man will do some things to save his wicked self.

If it weren't for people that cared we'd all be worse off.

People like Christians that comprise an unbalanced percentage of charities, and relief efforts etc. Do we see greenie groups on earthquake disaster sites, or Christian groups? Do we see the poor getting food from greenie groups? Or do we see the prices of food starving people, because the greenie wackos pushed to use needed corn, and other crops be used to make fuel??? You guys simply do not have people as a priority. You will not begin to hold a candle to me.

 

[Braunwyn]

Living in a home they were evicted from, in that environmentally sensitive area, was still a home. Guess the animals are better than poor people.

Did you bother to read your own article or did I miss something when I read it? They were living in a public forest. The fact they were able to do so as long as they is pretty impressive. Unfortunately none of us get to live on public property, and avoid property taxes for 10+ years. Or are you using that article as a joke I'm not getting?

How would you know? What if they liked their home, and didn't have long to live?

How would I know? Do you bother to read the articles you link?

Newsflash, many environmentalists are filthy rich. I linked a few, like the Rothschild child, and Gore.

Of course "some" environmentalists are rich. I still don't get your point. What of it?

I am saying stop picking on old people with overvalued homes, insinuating you don't care about them, because their newt stolen home was expensive.

Oh please. Your carboard soapbox isn't holding. The poor rich people. Good thing they have you to stand up for them otherwise what would they do!

If you were the house thief with the law on your side, no, I would not resist. I might be tempted to squash those darned newts, mind you, in protest.

I'm sure it would bring you a great deal pleasure.

Suspect of being nuts. In other words the bible tells us what is what, so if someone rapes a kid, we know that is evil.

Raping kids are issues commonly found in your (the church et al) backyard that you all need to contend with. Bad example, try something else.

Well, just look to bible descriptions of the new earth, and even the millennium. No more destroying, hurting, war, etc. Animals will again be used a lot for people of the world. To stop evil men, however, God will have to use force. Until then, they can't be stopped.

Again, i would love to hear what YOU DO.

Stop pretending those that won't worship the creation more than the creator with you don't care about anything but themselves. Stop claiming the bible declaring man as in the image of God, and a little lower than the angels is unwarranted. And don't think I care about the opinions of people that don't like it. They can lump it.

You've made it clear that you don't care about much. I get it. You equate caring with worship. I find that to be an odd position but the world is made of all kinds.

Caring about God's earth does not mean freaking out, evicting people, poisoning meat, spiking trees, putting sealers out of work, and holding one's nose up in the air. Get over it.

I have never asked you to freak out. I have requested a rational conversation about our environment and what we can do to make it better. You are the one that prefers to freak out. And yes, equating caring with worship is freaking out, hysterical even.

So what? Winter affects them. Sunshine affects them. Am I to curl up and cry about things out of our control?

There are things within in our control. We are not as helpless as you feel.

No idea what you are talking about. Most of the money wasted on 'taking care of the environment' is wasted, anyhow, that I can see.
From coal burning power plants to the formerly sacred recycle programs, many now question the new religion.

Supporting local family farms, reducing local pollution etc does not require you wasting money.

"For years, recycling has been held up as the best way to deal with waste. It's time that myth was exploded," said one deputy council leader in southern England.
A spokesman for East Sussex County Council, which plans to build an incinerator, said, "It's idealistic to think that everything can be recycled. It's just not possible. Incineration has an important role to play."
The Swedish group said that the "vision of a recycling market booming by 2010 was a dream 40 years ago and is still just a dream.""
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Environment/myth_recycling.htm

Do you bother to read the links you post? The point of your article is to address clean incinerators not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The Nanticoke coal-fired electricity generating station on Lake Erie is Canada's single largest source of air pollution. This gigantic coal-fired power plant -- the largest in North America -- produces a toxic brew of pollutants, including sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, lead, cancerous heavy metals and arsenic..."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]http://www.electricitychoices.org/coal.html

[/FONT]

So you're finally coming around to the fact that we need to address pollution? Good for you! It's nice to see.

Wicked humans do things that have consequences. That is the nature of the beast. The problem is the wickedness, not the ways it pops up.

Translated as "i don't care"

I am not one to think in terms of in the box, I assure you. Wicked man fishes wickedly, this is no surprise. If it were up to me, I would make em all use little nets, and smaller boats, so they couldn't devastate the sea. It is not up to me, at the moment. So I need not bear their shame, and guilt.

True, it is not up to you but as consumers it is up to us who we financially support. We can give our money to these people to aid in their practices or not. We can support politicians that inact regulation on these co's or not, etc.

How do I do that, by eating meat??? False, I got saved, which reverses the fall's effects. I advise the same for all men. That way, there will be no wicked, and we can all live happily ever after. They can get to beating their weapons into plough shares.

You may have been saved but your attitude does not reflect the behavior of Adam, Eve eta before the fall.

Think about it all you like it won't help. To get that way, we need to get saved.

A person doesn't need to be saved to have compassion. Obviously a person can be saved and lack in the compassion dept.

Then, if he differs in what the greens are doing, he can say so.

Instead my assumptions you could just ask him.

No, I just realize it is screwed. Nothing much I can do about it.
I read what some propose and just laugh.
"(CNSNews.com) - As environmentalists celebrate the 34th annual Earth Day, some in the green movement are now advocating "diaper-free" babies to help save the planet.

"There is a way to have a baby and NOT use diapers," says one website advocating diaperless babies. Parents are urged to get in tune with their infant's body signals and hold babies over toilets, buckets and shrubbery or any other convenient receptacle when nature calls.
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/environmental_wackos/

Scientists have developed a jab to stop sheep belches and farts from damaging the environment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/sep/23/science.research

"incredibly, so determined was she that the terrible "mistake" of pregnancy should never happen again, that she begged the doctor who performed the abortion to sterilise her at the same time.
He refused, but Toni - who works for an environmental charity - "relentlessly hunted down a doctor who would perform the irreversible surgery.

"Having children is selfish. It's all about maintaining your genetic line at the expense of the planet," says Toni, 35.
"Every person who is born uses more food, more water, more land, more fossil fuels, more trees and produces more rubbish, more pollution, more greenhouse gases, and adds to the problem of over-population."
While most parents view their children as the ultimate miracle of nature, Toni seems to see them as a sinister threat to the future."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=495495&in_page_id=1879

Some good and bad points. The diaper thing is just stupid. Contending with animal waste is needed. It's a problem that has real consequences, most of which are completely unnecesary.

You need to realize the limitations of His children's abilities. And not worry about the rest. Relax.

Well, please don't think you and your limitations are things that could be generalized to the rest of us. Given our technology, how we combat disease etc I have faith that we are not incompetant. We are indeed capable of dealing with the waste we produce. Granted not all of us are capable but plenty are.

"In an effort to help save the environment, U.S. singer Sheryl Crow is calling on everyone to limit the amount of toilet paper used "in any one sitting" to one square...

When my parents were growing up that was pretty standard practice, though they used two squares. Of course a person's diet would come into play.

You are indifferent to more time honored and biblical principles, cry me a river.

Time honored principles? Being a christian doesn't make you a GOD or superior.

They didn't look like spring chickens to me. Maybe if they were in their 90ies you would start to have compassion??

I'm not an agist. If they were homeless and poor I would be concerned. They are not homeless and poor.

Can you name many movie stars that are not either environmentalists, or rich? How about the ones I mentioned already, and many many others? Being rich has nothing to do with one's religion.

I still don't get your point. There are rich environmentalists sure but they aren't the majority because the majority aren't rich. Just as there are rich christians, which aren't the majority. I don't understand why you bring it up.

Greenies shaking men down??

Show me where anyone in this thread said you should give money. I don't know about others but I'm interested in altering behavior.

Caring also requires power. If all you are talking about is reducing the number of tissue sheets people use, or shaking out babies over bushes in parks, I would think that has less to do with the heart than the head.

I would consider using cloth diapers as a happy medium. I think that's reasonable.

Prayer, and the bible are as illegal as drugs in public schools, in case you missed that.

I believe you are misinformed. Prayer is not illegal in school. Please show me legislation that says children are not aloud to privately pray.

Or you use mine to fund your godless propaganda stations.

What are you talking about. What stations?

I have to go to work but will continue this response later on.

 

[dad]

Did you bother to read your own article or did I miss something when I read it? They were living in a public forest. The fact they were able to do so as long as they is pretty impressive. Unfortunately none of us get to live on public property, and avoid property taxes for 10+ years. Or are you using that article as a joke I'm not getting?

Homeless, poor people doing no harm, apparently, and the reason they got the boot seems to be because the greenies in the park board waxed religious in loving concern for butterflies, and whatnots.

How would I know? Do you bother to read the articles you link?

"
This leaves the Histeds contemplating a long summer of discontent in their caravan.

Mr Histed, 71,"
I think I would prefer a motel 8 to a European 'caravan'.

Of course "some" environmentalists are rich. I still don't get your point. What of it?

You seemed to sneer st the old couple because their house was of some value.

Oh please. Your carboard soapbox isn't holding. The poor rich people. Good thing they have you to stand up for them otherwise what would they do!

See what I mean?

"Rockefeller. A major donor to conservation and environmental groups,..

Harris, a retired investment banker and an heir to the Standard Oil fortune, is a long-time contributor to environmental organizations,

Granddaughter of J. Paul Getty, she inherited $400 million when Texaco bought Getty Oil, in 1986. Very low-profile, she has contributed to environmental causes
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1178531/posts

"on an individual level the evidence suggests that the wealthy
are indeed more likely to donate money to environmental groups.."
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...vironmentalist+list&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=ca

Raping kids are issues commonly found in your (the church et al) backyard that you all need to contend with. Bad example, try something else.

You assume I go to church. I also have a bank in my backyard, am I guilty of embezzling, if the employees get caught doing that?
The bible does not suggest raping children, sorry. I need not defend crimes, whether in church, the white house, or in schools, etc.

Again, i would love to hear what YOU DO.

I give a mentch of the coming kingdom, so some might escape the dirty hell that this world is turning into, when the great Green Guy comes.

You've made it clear that you don't care about much. I get it. You equate caring with worship. I find that to be an odd position but the world is made of all kinds.

What we give our time, and priorities to, is a form of worship. Realizing that wicked man will nearly destroy this planet is not to be confused with not caring. I prefer they stopped destroying this world. I like to keep it as clean and nice as possible. Rather than sticking tissue in the dike with a hole, I prefer to tell people in the flood zone to evacuate, and live. This whole earth is in the 'flood zone'.

I have never asked you to freak out. I have requested a rational conversation about our environment and what we can do to make it better. You are the one that prefers to freak out. And yes, equating caring with worship is freaking out, hysterical even.

No, evicting old folks, and poor folks, and shaking poor bare babies over park bushes, rather than using diapers, and using one square of tissue, and freaking out over a changing climate, etc do not make anything better. Why spend a billion dollars trying to save arctic animals, if the climate there simply is no longer going to be the same any more??

There are things within in our control. We are not as helpless as you feel.

Yes, and that is all well and good. Those things do not require us to carry the world on our shoulders, and the sins of wicked man.

Supporting local family farms, reducing local pollution etc does not require you wasting money.

Depends what that means. If supporting local farms means paying them to grow corn, to help starve the planet, by jacking up food prices, there must be a better way. If reducing pollution means getting all the greenies to camp out, and park their BMWs, and feed the poor, great. If it means they want to sit back as hypocrites pointing the godless finger at me, and get me to pay for their wicked programs, they can keep it.
Sounds to me like they are nuts, by and large, anyhow, many of them.
"

David Brower
Friends of the Earth ​

"Childbearing [should be] a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license.... All potential parents [should be] required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."

Carl Amery​

"We, in the green movement, aspire to a cultural model in which killing a forest will be considered more contemptible and more criminal than the sale of 6-year-old children to Asian brothels."

Lyall Watson
The Financial Times, 15 July 1995​

Cannibalism is a "radical but realistic solution to the problem of overpopulation."

Beyond comprehension. (Roger Fields)
​

Lamont Cole​

"To feed a starving child is to exacerbate the world population problem."

Prince Phillip
World Wildlife Fund​

"If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels."

Dr. Reed F. Noss
The Wildlands Project​

"The collective needs of non-human species must take precedence over the needs and desires of humans."

David Graber
biologist, National Park Service​

"I know scientists who remind me that people are part of nature, but it isn't true. Somewhere along the line ... we quit the contract and became a cancer. We have become a plague upon ourselves and upon the Earth.... Until such time as Homo Sapiens should decide to rejoin nature, some of us can only hope for the right virus to come along."

Dave Forman
Founder of Earth First!​

"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental."

John Davis
editor of Earth First! Journal​

"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs."


http://www.peopleforglobalwarming.com/Stupid_Quotes.htm

So you're finally coming around to the fact that we need to address pollution? Good for you! It's nice to see.

You need to, but I won't hold my breath, I know how this world goes round.

Translated as "i don't care"

I don't care about greenie philosophies, and world views, and silly self righteous works trips.

True, it is not up to you but as consumers it is up to us who we financially support. We can give our money to these people to aid in their practices or not. We can support politicians that inact regulation on these co's or not, etc.

Why support liars?? Rich liars at that? I prefer they all got fired today. And made to make restitution for all their wastes, and lies. I think some fishermen, farmers, retail employees, etc would run things at least as good as they have. Probably a lot better.

You may have been saved but your attitude does not reflect the behavior of Adam, Eve eta before the fall.

Why, did you know them then?? How would you know?? What attitude is needed to multiply, and eat fruit off trees??

A person doesn't need to be saved to have compassion. Obviously a person can be saved and lack in the compassion dept.

Says you. Wicked men, that get saved, do not become overnight saints, even if they are not just pretending to get elected somewhere. God simply starts working on that particular depraved individual. If I look at, say, Billy Graham, I do not see some hateful polluting, animal hating person. I figure God has been working on him for a number of years , some small progress must have been made.

Some good and bad points. The diaper thing is just stupid. Contending with animal waste is needed. It's a problem that has real consequences, most of which are completely unnecesary.

That sounds like a job for science. I figure they ought to spend time on stuff that are down to earth like that, rather than fantasizing about a dreamed up primordial past.

Well, please don't think you and your limitations are things that could be generalized to the rest of us. Given our technology, how we combat disease etc I have faith that we are not incompetant.

You have faith. I see. Well, so do I, and it is not in wicked man saving himself without God. Having greater technology is the hands of wicked men only bring bigger problems!

We are indeed capable of dealing with the waste we produce. Granted not all of us are capable but plenty are.

This means what? Theoretically, pie in the sky, if people were not wicked, we should be able to do it?? Good luck with that.

When my parents were growing up that was pretty standard practice, though they used two squares. Of course a person's diet would come into play.

How much hot water was needed, and extra soap for your hands after?

Time honored principles? Being a christian doesn't make you a GOD or superior.

It gives one some history, the greenies lack that. Unless you want to hook into the druids, and animal worship of the past!?

I'm not an agist. If they were homeless and poor I would be concerned. They are not homeless and poor.

So, richer old people can go to hell, OK. Let the old geyers live in a tin can till they die.

I still don't get your point. There are rich environmentalists sure but they aren't the majority because the majority aren't rich. Just as there are rich christians, which aren't the majority. I don't understand why you bring it up.

The leaders of the movement these days are wealthy.

Show me where anyone in this thread said you should give money. I don't know about others but I'm interested in altering behavior.

Time is money. If you have practical tips, other than wiping with one square, and shaking naked babies outdoors, over the sidewalks, etc, do let us know.

I would consider using cloth diapers as a happy medium. I think that's reasonable.

Ah, but that requires work, Lots of time, and soap, and hot water, and electricity to wash, and dry, etc. Who has time for that these days? Do you think if Gore had a baby, he would do that? I don't doubt I would be damned by some greenies either way. Sounds like they prefer to kill the kid, as a polluter.

I believe you are misinformed. Prayer is not illegal in school. Please show me legislation that says children are not aloud to privately pray.

That isn't what I mean, that is like talking to yourself, who would notice? Who could pass a law against it? I was talking about how they used to pray things like the Lord's prayer in schools, in the US, and elsewhere. Now, even a bible is contraband.
"An appeals court ordered the district last August to temporarily halt the handout of Bibles to fifth graders by Gideons International, known for its widespread distribution of the Holy Book in hotels nationwide.The school district in Annapolis then altered its open access policy, permitting Gideons and other groups – including the Red Cross, Missouri Water Patrol, and Girl Scouts – to give away Bibles or other literature before or after school or during lunch, but not in classrooms.
But U.S. District Judge Catherine Perry ruled Tuesday that both practices violated the Establishment Clause and granted a permanent injunction against any Bible distributors."
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...Bible_Distribution_Ruled_Unconstitutional.htm

"a series of Supreme Court decisions culminating in 1963's Abington Township School District v. Schempp, which removed prayer and devotion from the classroom"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1601845,00.html

What are you talking about. What stations?

Public education. Schools.

 

[Braunwyn]

Homeless, poor people doing no harm, apparently, and the reason they got the boot seems to be because the greenies in the park board waxed religious in loving concern for butterflies, and whatnots.

From what I read there are enviro's that support them. Either way, it's an odd situation.

This leaves the Histeds contemplating a long summer of discontent in their caravan.

Mr Histed, 71,"
I think I would prefer a motel 8 to a European 'caravan'.

You seemed to sneer st the old couple because their house was of some value.

If a couple can afford to a buy a million dollar home than they are not destitute. I hardly think they would end up in a trailor. Be serious.

See what I mean?

"Rockefeller. A major donor to conservation and environmental groups,..

Harris, a retired investment banker and an heir to the Standard Oil fortune, is a long-time contributor to environmental organizations,

Granddaughter of J. Paul Getty, she inherited $400 million when Texaco bought Getty Oil, in 1986. Very low-profile, she has contributed to environmental causes
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1178531/posts

"on an individual level the evidence suggests that the wealthy
are indeed more likely to donate money to environmental groups.."
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...vironmentalist+list&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=ca

Just because there are people you don't like that support conservation (i don't care for some either ya know) doesn't somehow extempt us from our responsibility. Why do you think that's the case?

You assume I go to church. I also have a bank in my backyard, am I guilty of embezzling, if the employees get caught doing that?

"the church" is figurative. If you prefer me to use the terms "christian religion" than I will.

The bible does not suggest raping children, sorry. I need not defend crimes, whether in church, the white house, or in schools, etc.

It's your position that if one member of a group is guilty than all are guilty. You can't have it both ways.

I give a mentch of the coming kingdom, so some might escape the dirty hell that this world is turning into, when the great Green Guy comes.

Still ignoring my request. Ok.

What we give our time, and priorities to, is a form of worship. Realizing that wicked man will nearly destroy this planet is not to be confused with not caring.

I never stated that man...wicked man, isn't responsible. If anything that's my position as well. Although 'only' realizing who is responsible isn't the best we can do imo.

I prefer they stopped destroying this world. I like to keep it as clean and nice as possible. Rather than sticking tissue in the dike with a hole, I prefer to tell people in the flood zone to evacuate, and live. This whole earth is in the 'flood zone'.

This highlights the question I had of you earlier. If one of your children developed a cancer, would you do something to address it or just tell him/her to die and evacute the hell hole we live in? Of course you would take action. I just don't understand why your actions would be limited in certain instances and not others. Why not always do the best we can?

No, evicting old folks, and poor folks, and shaking poor bare babies over park bushes, rather than using diapers, and using one square of tissue, and freaking out over a changing climate, etc do not make anything better. Why spend a billion dollars trying to save arctic animals, if the climate there simply is no longer going to be the same any more??

Some might ask you to spend a billion dollars. I'm not. I'm interested in the little things. For example, it would be ideal to use cloth bags when grocery shopping instead of plastic. I don't know about you but I've seen it be so wasteful. My dh and I have a collection now of reusable bags that we keep in our car when we decide to shop. We try to recycle to the best of our ability as well. I'm also trying to take action to limit my driving. As I mentioned earlier, I think this is a benefit on multiple levels. It will save $$$ for us. We won't be contributing to traffic as much and we'll hopefully reduce our contributions to pollution.

I was on another board recently and I learned about folding bikes. I didn't know they existed. Instead of driving to the train in the spring, summer and fall it would be great to use one of these bikes without the fear of having it stolen.

Yes, and that is all well and good. Those things do not require us to carry the world on our shoulders, and the sins of wicked man.

As I've stated over and over I'm not talking about taking the world on our shoulder. A person can only do so much.

Depends what that means. If supporting local farms means paying them to grow corn, to help starve the planet, by jacking up food prices, there must be a better way.

Well, mom and pop farms are dying out. Co's are taking over. For one, the produce is usually organic. That's good for the consumer. 2. It keeps your $$ in your community.

If reducing pollution means getting all the greenies to camp out, and park their BMWs, and feed the poor, great.

You think all greenies own BMW's? he he

If it means they want to sit back as hypocrites pointing the godless finger at me, and get me to pay for their wicked programs, they can keep it.
Sounds to me like they are nuts, by and large, anyhow, many of them.

Can we not focus on what other's are doing and just discuss what we can do?

Why support liars?? Rich liars at that? I prefer they all got fired today. And made to make restitution for all their wastes, and lies. I think some fishermen, farmers, retail employees, etc would run things at least as good as they have. Probably a lot better.

I won't argue with that but we do indeed fund these people. Our politicians are paid with our tax dollars. The money is taken without permission. Not caring, not being active isn't going to help. We need to be aware and hold them accountable.

Why, did you know them then?? How would you know?? What attitude is needed to multiply, and eat fruit off trees??

Since I was raised christian, I'm familiar with Adam and Eve. The attitude needed to mulitply and eat fruit off trees and not killing is pretty simple. Don't kill. Don't support needless killing. It was after the fall that killing becamse the precedent. It's not that complicated of a message.

Says you. Wicked men, that get saved, do not become overnight saints, even if they are not just pretending to get elected somewhere. God simply starts working on that particular depraved individual. If I look at, say, Billy Graham, I do not see some hateful polluting, animal hating person. I figure God has been working on him for a number of years , some small progress must have been made.

Maybe so but my point stands. A person doesn't need to be saved to hold compassion.

That sounds like a job for science. I figure they ought to spend time on stuff that are down to earth like that, rather than fantasizing about a dreamed up primordial past.

Well, there are org's addressing these issues, mostly epi's from what I've gathered but it tough. A political brick wall divides the whistle-blowers from regulation. If you have the time, check "Food politics" by Nestle. It's an excellent book that's fully sourced.

You have faith. I see. Well, so do I, and it is not in wicked man saving himself without God. Having greater technology is the hands of wicked men only bring bigger problems!

I agree. I'm just saying if we have the ability to create technology then are certainly capable of contending with the problems we make for ourselves. And I'm not arguing that people shouldn't have their god at their side while addressing our problems.

How much hot water was needed, and extra soap for your hands after?

lol ok, that's funny.

The leaders of the movement these days are wealthy.

Leaders period tend to be wealthy. So what? Should we just duck out and let them have say from beginning to end? No way.

Time is money. If you have practical tips, other than wiping with one square, and shaking naked babies outdoors, over the sidewalks, etc, do let us know.

I mentioned some of the easy tips that I'm trying to employ. Cloth diapers and bags, folding bikes for commuters that have access to public transportation (and using it), shopping at food co-ops, buying used instead of new. Please add to the list.

Ah, but that requires work, Lots of time, and soap, and hot water, and electricity to wash, and dry, etc. Who has time for that these days? Do you think if Gore had a baby, he would do that? I don't doubt I would be damned by some greenies either way. Sounds like they prefer to kill the kid, as a polluter.

You equate using cloth diapers as killing a kid? I don't care what gore would do. As far as time goes, so what? Most of us, as I'm sure you do, volunteer our time for our community. As far as the enviro costs I did look into this because it's a good point. You might enjoy this article that looks at the pros and cons. http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/diapers/joy-of-cloth.html

That isn't what I mean, that is like talking to yourself, who would notice? Who could pass a law against it? I was talking about how they used to pray things like the Lord's prayer in schools, in the US, and elsewhere. Now, even a bible is contraband.

We can get into the downfalls of a multicultural society. It certainly has its issues. Not too long ago I remember the uproar over the mulsim school in NYC that was funded by federal dollars. People didn't like it. That doesn't mean these children aren't allowed prayer time. I know they are in my neck of the woods.

"An appeals court ordered the district last August to temporarily halt the handout of Bibles to fifth graders by Gideons International, known for its widespread distribution of the Holy Book in hotels nationwide.The school district in Annapolis then altered its open access policy, permitting Gideons and other groups – including the Red Cross, Missouri Water Patrol, and Girl Scouts – to give away Bibles or other literature before or after school or during lunch, but not in classrooms.
But U.S. District Judge Catherine Perry ruled Tuesday that both practices violated the Establishment Clause and granted a permanent injunction against any Bible distributors."
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...Bible_Distribution_Ruled_Unconstitutional.htm

"a series of Supreme Court decisions culminating in 1963's Abington Township School District v. Schempp, which removed prayer and devotion from the classroom"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1601845,00.html


Public education. Schools.

I don't see what the issue is. They are allowed to distribute their bibles at the school, just not in the classroom. If a kid is in class they should be paying attention to the class material. What's the problem with that? Public education is not and should not be synonymous with witnessing.

 

[Braunwyn]

Also, sorry for all the grammar and spelling errors in my posts. I don't have the energy to proof read any of it.

 

[dad]

From what I read there are enviro's that support them. Either way, it's an odd situation.

True. But is shows me where the green heart is at.
" . They get perverse satisfaction from wolves, mountain lions, grizzly bears, and other wild beasts they release in densely populated areas that attack, maim, and kill innocent children and adults. Environmentalists justify the carnage by pointing out that people are plentiful and can be spared, while the animals are "endangered species."
California, in 1993, dozens of homes were destroyed as wildfires erupted in the area. But desperate homeowners were threatened with prison and fines if they cleared dry, overgrown brush. Reason: endangered rats, vermin, inhabited the brush.
... a 67 year-old retired couple wept as their tiny home was bulldozed into ruins. The defeated husband was branded an eco-criminal by a federal judge and castigated in local newspapers. His crime: The couple’s house had been built in an area the environmentalists said was once (not now—but in eons past) a "wetland." When the old man complained there was no water on his quarter-acre lot or anywhere else in the subdivision, so it couldn’t possibly be a "wetland," angry environmentalist bureaucrats snarled and said, "For regulatory purposes, a wetland is whatever we decide it is."

In Vail, Colorado, they fire-bombed the Two Elks Restaurant and a ski lodge. Environmentalists said they did it to "save" the endangered lynx, a wildcat
http://www.texemarrs.com/052000/desear.htm

If a couple can afford to a buy a million dollar home than they are not destitute. I hardly think they would end up in a trailor. Be serious.

Who said they were destitute? They seem to have a tin can caravan to live in. In Europe, the roads are smaller, you know, and caravans are not US sized. Newts outrank old people, because they have an expensive home, now?? You get serious. That is tyranny.

Just because there are people you don't like that support conservation (i don't care for some either ya know) doesn't somehow extempt us from our responsibility. Why do you think that's the case?

I don't even know those people, let alone like or dislike them. They were examples of wealth in the green side.

"the church" is figurative. If you prefer me to use the terms "christian religion" than I will.

I don't recall Jesus being part of that? I look at the bible, and what Jesus said. If any religion does otherwise, they are on their own.

It's your position that if one member of a group is guilty than all are guilty. You can't have it both ways.

Not really. I am not part of the Catholic group. If some of them happen to be part of the Christian group, so what, they also might have a bank account, and be part of a golf club.

Still ignoring my request. Ok.

No, that was an answer, preaching the gospel outranks greenieism in my books.
If a dam broke, and houses some miles down were going to be washed away, we don't need someone telling them to save the newts in their backyard, and get a smart car for their driveway, and use a certain paint on their fence, and freeze their poor little naked baby, sticking it out the window every 30 minutes to deficate, etc.
We need someone to say, if you want to live at all, get out of that house. This world is doomed, and the wicked are destroying it, if people want to live on into eternity, they need to believe in Jesus. Not torch their neighbors houses to save a lynx.

I never stated that man...wicked man, isn't responsible. If anything that's my position as well. Although 'only' realizing who is responsible isn't the best we can do imo.

That depends on who is the we that is doing things about it. If it is just wicked men, then the results will be like what we see. Maybe if people realized that the climate is simply going to change, and many creatures adapted to the cold, or whatever just are not going to make it, they could stop freaking out. If we realized the actual problem is sin, and the nature of man, we could look to what can fix that.

This highlights the question I had of you earlier. If one of your children developed a cancer, would you do something to address it or just tell him/her to die and evacute the hell hole we live in? Of course you would take action. I just don't understand why your actions would be limited in certain instances and not others. Why not always do the best we can?

What can we do about cancer? We can treat it the best man knows how, but that does not mean kicking old people out of their homes. Nor burning down people's business to save cats, or spiking trees, or wiping our derrières with a single tissue on the finger, or giving babies pneumonia, dangling them outdoors naked.

Some might ask you to spend a billion dollars. I'm not. I'm interested in the little things. For example, it would be ideal to use cloth bags when grocery shopping instead of plastic.

Well, that might be a practical tidbit to sooth some consciences.
Of course some would call me evil for so doing, no doubt, as well. There is no greenie bible, remember. No one really makes the rules, and they change all the time anyhow.
" Millions of trees are being knocked down just because some people think that plastic bags are bad for the environment but they're wrong. Plastic bags are recyclable and isn't that the entire point of being 'green'? We're trying to reduce the amount of waste in the landfills by recycling more and throwing away less trash.

Plastic bags aren't the evil items they're made out to be - they allow us to re-use them in our small household bins, as a means to carry our lunch to work or for a picnic; you can put your wet bathing suits in a plastic bag when packing, and how about re-using them when you go grocery shopping? If you're not re-using your grocery store plastic bags then what are you using to line your bathroom or office bins? Are you buying plastic bags from manufacturers like Hefty or Glad? Why buy bags when we can just recycle the ones we already have? "
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/575447/are_plastic_bags_really_bad_for_the.html

I don't know about you but I've seen it be so wasteful. My dh and I have a collection now of reusable bags that we keep in our car when we decide to shop. We try to recycle to the best of our ability as well. I'm also trying to take action to limit my driving. As I mentioned earlier, I think this is a benefit on multiple levels. It will save $$$ for us. We won't be contributing to traffic as much and we'll hopefully reduce our contributions to pollution.

Reducing driving is great. Much of the world, however is really not set up well, for that to be practical and economical for many people.

I was on another board recently and I learned about folding bikes. I didn't know they existed. Instead of driving to the train in the spring, summer and fall it would be great to use one of these bikes without the fear of having it stolen.

In your situation, that might be good. Long as you don't pass a law that everyone has to do it, and expect others to foot the bill for the program. Millions are no where near bike range, folded, or not. Many are also old, or too young, or not that healthy, etc. Others need to carry stuff that a bike just cannot do.

As I've stated over and over I'm not talking about taking the world on our shoulder. A person can only do so much.

Right, and we hope we all do what we can.

Well, mom and pop farms are dying out. Co's are taking over. For one, the produce is usually organic. That's good for the consumer. 2. It keeps your $$ in your community.

Of course some would cast stones at us for that as well. You just can't please the greenies.
" Buying organic food grown locally may sometimes be more damaging to the environment than nipping down to the supermarket for produce that has been driven hundreds of miles across the country, a new study suggests."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1415464.ece

You think all greenies own BMW's? he he

No. Some drive jags, and even Lincolns!
"Al Gore got a speeding ticket while driving a rented car--a most Earth-unfriendly Lincoln four-door, according to the ticket--on a visit to relatives in Oregon. He was doing 75 in a 55 zone."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_17_56/ai_n13723896

Can we not focus on what other's are doing and just discuss what we can do?

You can try. I am afraid there isn't much we can do, we are hooped. Be happy.

I won't argue with that but we do indeed fund these people. Our politicians are paid with our tax dollars. The money is taken without permission. Not caring, not being active isn't going to help. We need to be aware and hold them accountable.

It is not a question of not caring, it is a question of what we care about. You seem to feel that merely 'holding them accountable' somehow would make a difference. I figure God has it about right. He needs to fire the bums, and run things Himself, with the help of those He has started working on already, the saved.

Since I was raised christian, I'm familiar with Adam and Eve. The attitude needed to mulitply and eat fruit off trees and not killing is pretty simple. Don't kill. Don't support needless killing.

No, that was not an attitude they had, since killing came later. In fact God killed a beast to make them fur coats, and later told man, after the flood, we needed to eat the animals. Nothing wrong with killing animals as needed.

Maybe so but my point stands. A person doesn't need to be saved to hold compassion.

Well, a broken glass can hold water as well, that is true. And a saved 'glass' may not have much water in it at first, that is true. But it is on the way, and in the right direction.

Well, there are org's addressing these issues, mostly epi's from what I've gathered but it tough. A political brick wall divides the whistle-blowers from regulation. If you have the time, check "Food politics" by Nestle. It's an excellent book that's fully sourced.

I peeked at her blog, and seem to agree with a lot there. For example, an article that was negative about Monsanto. Also about labeling, and one that seems to be against cloned crops.

I agree. I'm just saying if we have the ability to create technology then are certainly capable of contending with the problems we make for ourselves. And I'm not arguing that people shouldn't have their god at their side while addressing our problems.

I can see where one would think that. But we have the good and bad knowledge, not just the good. At least the bad uses, by wicked men. Therefore any theoretical ability to solve our own problems is always complicated by the fact we also created them!

Leaders period tend to be wealthy. So what? Should we just duck out and let them have say from beginning to end? No way.

I was thinking more duck them out. Set it up so rich people are the exception, not the rule. Lincoln could never get elected today.

I mentioned some of the easy tips that I'm trying to employ. Cloth diapers and bags, folding bikes for commuters that have access to public transportation (and using it), shopping at food co-ops, buying used instead of new. Please add to the list.

Sounds fine. I guess everyone adapts to their situation as they can. Food co ops seem to be an option that is fairly neutral for impacting the environment. Carrying bags to shop can't hurt.

You equate using cloth diapers as killing a kid?

No, but the quotes from some greens make it clear they don't like babies or people.
"The right to have children should be a marketable commodity, bought and traded by individuals but absolutely limited by the state.

We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to come and bomb us into Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our homemade religion -- guilt-free at last! -

Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental. --

I don't care what gore would do. As far as time goes, so what? Most of us, as I'm sure you do, volunteer our time for our community.

Don't be so sure. Most I meet don't.

As far as the enviro costs I did look into this because it's a good point. You might enjoy this article that looks at the pros and cons. http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/diapers/joy-of-cloth.html

Ha, this was funny
"disposables were actually no worse for the environment than cloth diapers. Procter & Gamble followed with an ad showing tree roots in compost, stating, "90 days ago this was a disposable diaper." After several lawsuits based on the fact that composting facilities for disposable diapers do not actually exist, the ad was pulled"


Anyhow, yes cloth is best, despite the effort and pollution needed to clean them. As you might realize, however, we do not live in a perfect world, so don't think most people are going back to last century ways. Those that do, I suppose, might feel good, that is fine, for all the good it will do.

We can get into the downfalls of a multicultural society. It certainly has its issues. Not too long ago I remember the uproar over the mulsim school in NYC that was funded by federal dollars. People didn't like it. That doesn't mean these children aren't allowed prayer time. I know they are in my neck of the woods.

Right, let's face it, the US is a pagan nation. I actually expect nothing from them at all, but further distancing from God. Christians had better face the facts, and get their kids trained up somehow there, the best way they can, the state is the enemy of their kids soul.

I don't see what the issue is. They are allowed to distribute their bibles at the school, just not in the classroom. If a kid is in class they should be paying attention to the class material. What's the problem with that? Public education is not and should not be synonymous with witnessing.

We can leave all that, we won't agree. My opinion is shut all public education down today.

 

[Braunwyn]

Sorry it took me a while to respond. I had to wait for the weekend to continue with these long posts.

True. But is shows me where the green heart is at.

Oh please, that is ridiculous.

" . They get perverse satisfaction from wolves, mountain lions, grizzly bears, and other wild beasts they release in densely populated areas that attack, maim, and kill innocent children and adults. Environmentalists justify the carnage by pointing out that people are plentiful and can be spared, while the animals are "endangered species."
California, in 1993, dozens of homes were destroyed as wildfires erupted in the area. But desperate homeowners were threatened with prison and fines if they cleared dry, overgrown brush. Reason: endangered rats, vermin, inhabited the brush.
... a 67 year-old retired couple wept as their tiny home was bulldozed into ruins. The defeated husband was branded an eco-criminal by a federal judge and castigated in local newspapers. His crime: The couple’s house had been built in an area the environmentalists said was once (not now—but in eons past) a "wetland." When the old man complained there was no water on his quarter-acre lot or anywhere else in the subdivision, so it couldn’t possibly be a "wetland," angry environmentalist bureaucrats snarled and said, "For regulatory purposes, a wetland is whatever we decide it is."

In Vail, Colorado, they fire-bombed the Two Elks Restaurant and a ski lodge. Environmentalists said they did it to "save" the endangered lynx, a wildcat
http://www.texemarrs.com/052000/desear.htm

[/quote]
If you want to source, which is great, forgo the loonies. Texe Marrs is a con. http://www.tylwythteg.com/lawguide/marrs.html

Instead of turning to a loon for information about enviro orgs go to the orgs yourself.
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/

There are christian enviromentalist groups as well.
http://cesc.montreat.edu/ceo/EEN/EENusa.html

I don't recall Jesus being part of that? I look at the bible, and what Jesus said. If any religion does otherwise, they are on their own.

I'm not speaking of other religions, I'm speaking of yours and your community.

Not really. I am not part of the Catholic group. If some of them happen to be part of the Christian group, so what, they also might have a bank account, and be part of a golf club.

Again, you want it both ways. You want to speak of the green heart, based on the rantings of a psychotic loon that makes allegations about some green folk, but you don't want to be painted with the same brush.

That depends on who is the we that is doing things about it. If it is just wicked men, then the results will be like what we see. Maybe if people realized that the climate is simply going to change, and many creatures adapted to the cold, or whatever just are not going to make it, they could stop freaking out. If we realized the actual problem is sin, and the nature of man, we could look to what can fix that.

If you want to call it sin, that's fine. Regardless of what you call it, our behavior needs to be addressed. Our of curiousity, what specific sins are you thinking of and how do you intend to address them?

What can we do about cancer? We can treat it the best man knows how, but that does not mean kicking old people out of their homes. Nor burning down people's business to save cats, or spiking trees, or wiping our derrières with a single tissue on the finger, or giving babies pneumonia, dangling them outdoors naked.

So, what you're saying is the only action that can be taken to address our contribution to environmental damage is giving babied pneumonia and kicking people out of their homes? That's it huh? You and I have no other roles to play? No wonder you're so resistant to consider the issues.

Well, that might be a practical tidbit to sooth some consciences.

You make a third important point. It doesn't have to be sooting consciences. That's certainly an aspect but our actions can have fruit that extend beyond "us".

Of course some would call me evil for so doing, no doubt, as well. There is no greenie bible, remember. No one really makes the rules, and they change all the time anyhow.
" Millions of trees are being knocked down just because some people think that plastic bags are bad for the environment but they're wrong. Plastic bags are recyclable and isn't that the entire point of being 'green'?

The idea wouldn't be to replace one disposable item for another but for reusable items.

Plastic bags aren't the evil items they're made out to be - they allow us to re-use them in our small household bins, as a means to carry our lunch to work or for a picnic; you can put your wet bathing suits in a plastic bag when packing, and how about re-using them when you go grocery shopping? If you're not re-using your grocery store plastic bags then what are you using to line your bathroom or office bins? Are you buying plastic bags from manufacturers like Hefty or Glad? Why buy bags when we can just recycle the ones we already have? "
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/575447/are_plastic_bags_really_bad_for_the.html

No doubt we should reuse our plastic bags. I'm only going on personal experience but I collected way more plastic bags than I use for trash. My closet is filled with them that's why switched over to cloth.

Reducing driving is great. Much of the world, however is really not set up well, for that to be practical and economical for many people.

I agree that it will only work for some people. Obviously people that don't have access to public transportation can't use it. Curbing driving is something urban dwellers can do.

In your situation, that might be good. Long as you don't pass a law that everyone has to do it, and expect others to foot the bill for the program. Millions are no where near bike range, folded, or not. Many are also old, or too young, or not that healthy, etc. Others need to carry stuff that a bike just cannot do.

The point of such discussions aren't about changing laws. It's to share ideas imo.

Right, and we hope we all do what we can.
Of course some would cast stones at us for that as well. You just can't please the greenies.

There will always be naysayers but your stereotyping is starting to get annoying. Please stop the childish antics.

" Buying organic food grown locally may sometimes be more damaging to the environment than nipping down to the supermarket for produce that has been driven hundreds of miles across the country, a new study suggests."

Interesting article. Thanks for linking it. Although my point was to look mom & pop farms, not corporate organic farms, which from what I can tell is at the heart of the article. For one, corporate organic farms in the US might not be organic at all because our regulation that defines what is organic is still up for discussion.

You can try. I am afraid there isn't much we can do, we are hooped. Be happy.

I just don't see the merit of gossip in these types of discussions, which is what we've been engaging in and it's not productive (not for me at least).

No, that was not an attitude they had, since killing came later. In fact God killed a beast to make them fur coats, and later told man, after the flood, we needed to eat the animals. Nothing wrong with killing animals as needed.

As needed is the point. Society needlessly kills.

Well, a broken glass can hold water as well, that is true. And a saved 'glass' may not have much water in it at first, that is true. But it is on the way, and in the right direction.

According to you. I disagree.

I peeked at her blog, and seem to agree with a lot there. For example, an article that was negative about Monsanto. Also about labeling, and one that seems to be against cloned crops.

Her book can also be used as a referance guide. It's set up where you wouldn't need to read it front to back to get the jist. She also sources USDA mintues where you can go read the comings and goings of those that manipulate regulation for yourself.

I can see where one would think that. But we have the good and bad knowledge, not just the good. At least the bad uses, by wicked men. Therefore any theoretical ability to solve our own problems is always complicated by the fact we also created them![/qutoe]
Indeed. It is complicated and daunting. When I first decided on my profession it was under the assumption that I was going to revolutionize the use of animal models in medical science. Little did I know how vast and complicated the issue was. I had to tone down my ideals away from AR to AW. I figured maybe I could work on 1 test, 1 method that uses animals (of thousands) and come up with an in-vitro alternative that produced acceptable results it would be good, something. Now I come to find, due to FTA's, that most compaines will be leaving shore and heading to countries that don't have regulation or a care in the world about finding alternatives. It's depressing.

I was thinking more duck them out. Set it up so rich people are the exception, not the rule. Lincoln could never get elected today.

True. You might like this site. http://reformparty.org/platform.htm

Sounds fine. I guess everyone adapts to their situation as they can. Food co ops seem to be an option that is fairly neutral for impacting the environment. Carrying bags to shop can't hurt.

Ime with cooperatives there seems to be less waste over all. And I like the idea that consumers have a stake in their store.

Right, let's face it, the US is a pagan nation. I actually expect nothing from them at all, but further distancing from God. Christians had better face the facts, and get their kids trained up somehow there, the best way they can, the state is the enemy of their kids soul.

I don't know what you're talking about. Our pres in christian, the current candidates are christian. A non-christian wouldn't even be considered. How in the world would you consider that pagan?

We can leave all that, we won't agree. My opinion is shut all public education down today.

My kids won't be attending public school, that's for sure. And they won't be attending Catholic school either. It is needed for those that can't afford private school though. It's not as if we have a shortage of under-educated people.

 

[dad]

Oh please, that is ridiculous.

Well, widespread actions of people of that faith do speak of where they are at.

If you want to source, which is great, forgo the loonies. Texe Marrs is a con.

I used the link, because it referred to some eco terror events. Would you deny them?
Here is another link for the fire claim.
"
No doubt some of the homes still going up in flames are lost as a result of protection for an endangered species.

ESA regulations prevented homeowners from clearing highly flammable brush from around their homes in San Bernadino and San Diego counties. The very brush that brought the flames that destroyed their homes was the protected habitat of an endangered species, the kangaroo rat."
http://www.newsmax.com/hostetter/california_fires/2007/10/31/45557.html

And the ski lodge destruction also linked here.
http://www.targetofopportunity.com/elf.htm

So, liking or disliking someone in one link is moot, long as the facts are what were being dealt with.

There are christian enviromentalist groups as well.
http://cesc.montreat.edu/ceo/EEN/EENusa.html

They don't bomb and burn things, spike trees, and dangle naked babies over bushes 20 times a day, etc, I would guess.
http://cesc.montreat.edu/ceo/EEN/EENusa.html

I'm not speaking of other religions, I'm speaking of yours and your community.

Catholics are not my religion.

Again, you want it both ways. You want to speak of the green heart, based on the rantings of a psychotic loon that makes allegations about some green folk, but you don't want to be painted with the same brush.

The same spirit, you mean. No. Neither spirit is God's. Rapist, or creation worship.

If you want to call it sin, that's fine. Regardless of what you call it, our behavior needs to be addressed. Our of curiousity, what specific sins are you thinking of and how do you intend to address them?

Sin is a state of being for mankind, so called green sins are merely one color of sin. Some sins, by nations that have had a lot of God's words warrant serious consequences. Ancient Israel found that out. They did a lot of things, like worship creatures, and gods.
"who were worshipping all sorts of beasts and reptiles, which were painted on the wall. Being brought thence to the gate of the door of the house, he saw women weeping for Tammuz or Adonis"
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=8&verse=10#Eze8_10
Eze 8: 10 So I went in and looked. And I saw that on the wall all around were pictures of every kind of thing which moves along the ground, and wild animals, and hated things, and all the false gods of the people of Israel.

14Then He brought me to the north gate of the Lord's house. And I saw women sitting there crying for the false god Tammuz.

"Tammuz: "Women sit by the gate weeping for Tammuz, or they offer incense to Baal on roof-tops and plant pleasant plants. These are the very features of the Adonis cult: a cult confined to women which is celebrated on flat roof-tops on which sherds sown with quickly germinating green salading are placed, Adonis gardens..."

"Ba'al" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture"
-wiki

So, what you're saying is the only action that can be taken to address our contribution to environmental damage is giving babied pneumonia and kicking people out of their homes? That's it huh? You and I have no other roles to play? No wonder you're so resistant to consider the issues.

No, there is nothing that you can do about it, this world is run by wicked men, who will destroy it, unless God stops them, period. Any little things we do, out of good conscience, and love, and respect for this world are well and good, but not something that measures righteousness.
If 42 million babies or whatever are murdered every year, and someone is yapping on about some rat, that is in trouble, we have to weight it in the balances. The endangered species are a real concern, but, compared to the salvation of mankind, rank as the dust in the balances. The family is being assaulted in the US, and the new would be president plans to give homos carte blanche, as well as child murderers, maybe you ought to worry more about that, than using a few sheets of toilet paper. Or, if you support that, you better worry more about the Almighty.

You make a third important point. It doesn't have to be sooting consciences. That's certainly an aspect but our actions can have fruit that extend beyond "us".

No doubt. We could put toilet paper makers out of work! We could put loggers out of work. WE could employ painters to draw animals on walls, and all sorts of things. Of course we have an effect on others. It seems only good sense to take care of God's good earth as best we can. For example, I find it disgusting to see people litter. I don't like cruise ships dumping tons of sewage into the sea, soon as they duck around, out of sight, at night, from the port. Etc. I don't like ferries, and trucks sitting there idling, burning fuel, I don't like useless airplane rides, burning fuel for nothing, etc etc etc. Does that mean some Christian should feel guilty if they drive to a bible class?

The idea wouldn't be to replace one disposable item for another but for reusable items.

I think disposable plastic razors might be a candidate?

No doubt we should reuse our plastic bags. I'm only going on personal experience but I collected way more plastic bags than I use for trash. My closet is filled with them that's why switched over to cloth.

I think the point there might be, not that we reuse them forever, but that do do get another use or two.

I agree that it will only work for some people. Obviously people that don't have access to public transportation can't use it. Curbing driving is something urban dwellers can do.

Maybe they could. But I think many go about it wrong. For example, I heard in one Canadian province, they put on a sort of carbon tax. In other words, that jack up the price of the already obscenely taxed fuel, some 8-10 cents a gallon, or some such, in a supposed effort to be environmental. I wonder exactly where that money will go? I also wonder if human nature responds better to carrots, than to sticks? I wonder if they gave out bus passes, or taxi fares, or some such, if they might not reduce the cares on the road?

There will always be naysayers but your stereotyping is starting to get annoying. Please stop the childish antics.

The point was that no matter what one does, there will be some that call it a sin, and a bad thing, most likely.

Interesting article. Thanks for linking it. Although my point was to look mom & pop farms, not corporate organic farms, which from what I can tell is at the heart of the article. For one, corporate organic farms in the US might not be organic at all because our regulation that defines what is organic is still up for discussion.

Well, I guess no one is really a puritan in the green movements. Mom and pop might have a pick up truck, and tractor, sucking gas. They might use electricity, from coal fired plants, and take vacations in fume spewing buses, planes, and trains. They might pay taxes, which make nuclear bombs, which will one day do more damage than they ever could begin to undo. etc. Seems like it is a fools's game to me. I really wouldn't worry about it.

I just don't see the merit of gossip in these types of discussions, which is what we've been engaging in and it's not productive (not for me at least).

Pointing out mankind is hooped is not gossip, it is observation. No matter how productive individuals may be in a green sense, it cannot save the planet. - If that is the goal, there.

As needed is the point. Society needlessly kills.

Where are animals needlessly killed?? I mean, in some places, a coyote can chew a kid's face off, and has no worries at all about being killed. In fact, that happens a lot. I know someone that called a local authority, reporting a coyote in an area with small pets, and small kids playing, actually. They were asked if the coyote was injured! The reply was, no, and they said, there was nothing they would do, then!

According to you. I disagree.

Well, according to the bible, really. True righteousness only comes from God, and His son.

Her book can also be used as a referance guide. It's set up where you wouldn't need to read it front to back to get the jist. She also sources USDA mintues where you can go read the comings and goings of those that manipulate regulation for yourself.

Seems to be a fairly level headed thing. I don't mind some people trying to curb the excesses of corporate wickedness. Christians are concerned about such things as well.

Indeed. It is complicated and daunting. When I first decided on my profession it was under the assumption that I was going to revolutionize the use of animal models in medical science. Little did I know how vast and complicated the issue was. I had to tone down my ideals away from AR to AW. I figured maybe I could work on 1 test, 1 method that uses animals (of thousands) and come up with an in-vitro alternative that produced acceptable results it would be good, something. Now I come to find, due to FTA's, that most compaines will be leaving shore and heading to countries that don't have regulation or a care in the world about finding alternatives. It's depressing.

Ah, yes, the battle goes beyond the borders on any one country, it involves the world. It is a battle that cannot be won, because only God can save us, not our wicked selves.

True. You might like this site. http://reformparty.org/platform.htm

"We, the members of the Reform Party, commit ourselves to reform our political system. Together we will work to re-establish trust in our government by electing ethical officials, dedicated to fiscal responsibility and political accountability." - from that site.
Actually, I think they are wasting their time, like the ancient Israelites were, worshiping gods, and animals. The ones that are going to have a chance at winning, are rushing the country to the precipice of doom, and racing away from any possible salvation.

Ime with cooperatives there seems to be less waste over all. And I like the idea that consumers have a stake in their store.

OK.

I don't know what you're talking about. Our pres in christian, the current candidates are christian. A non-christian wouldn't even be considered. How in the world would you consider that pagan?

Ha!!! people that advocate homosexual anti family causes, and unfettered abortion are not representing God in any way. Politicians that wear a nominal christian veneer, are merely liars, that are best known by their actions. Some leaders in the end of man's days will be such, the bible says, like the second in command, the false prophet. He will, as the bible puts it, 'have two horns like a lamb' but he will speak as the dragon. People who claim things like that the sermon on the mount was applying to homos, for example, should not fool believers. Apparently, it will fool most, somehow.

My kids won't be attending public school, that's for sure. And they won't be attending Catholic school either. It is needed for those that can't afford private school though. It's not as if we have a shortage of under-educated people.

If a glass of water has poison, it should be avoided, no matter if one is thirsty. Better to be thirsty, than dead. People can learn outside the silly schools, by the way. If I was to call anyone ignorant, it would not be the ones outside the public schools.