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Should you believe in the trinity II

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Simonline

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Since you are all in denial concerning the Truth there is nothing more I can say?! All I can do is await the return of the Messiah and His vindication of the Truth by having all who deny it cast into the everlasting Lake of Fire where those who are there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth in complete and total anguish at not having believed the truth when they had the opportunity whilst they were alive. As the Scriptures teach, some are predestined to evelasting Life whilst the remainder are predestined to everlasting Perdition.

I also ask any theologically competent moderators (if there is such a thing on this site) to read some of the posts on this thread that have been posted by people other than myself and see for yourself just how theologically and metaphysically contradictory they are, thereby revealing, for all the world to see, that the authors have absolutely no idea about the subjects upon which they are pontificating?!

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Kris10leigh

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All I can say is that it is obvious that you truly believe this. I feel that you are on a mission to save us from ourselves, and honestly, I find that to be a noble gesture. I don't feel it's warranted...but I do appreciate the gesture. I don't personally feel belief in the Trinity will open or close the gates to our promised everlasting life.
 
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2ducklow

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In other words, the proof of trinity is that all that deny it are doomed to hell.
Trinitarians will think you are spot on. unitarians will think your posts are total illogic, contradiction, and nonsense, oneness will swap quid pro quo contradiction for contradiction and nonsense for nonsense. Depends on the moderators theology as to how sound they would think your arguments are. As a point of fact though, unitarians are the only ones that are logical, non contradictory and make sense. We have logic on our side, no one else does.
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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Yep, now i understand why you have that attitude! Now i understand why you refuse to answer honest arguments that undermine your beliefs. The reason is because you believe that all believers here that don't accept your traditions as truth are sons of hell from birth. You have become a judge, hence you cannot be a messianic Jew considering that Jewish history and authors like Orjot Sadikim would condemn your actions!
 
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rkittles

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John 6:57 - Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.

Seems easy enough for me. Jesus lives because of the Father and we will live because of Jesus. Jesus would not live "because of" anyone if he were the Eternal God.
 
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2ducklow

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yep, john 6.75 trumps trinitarian dogma every time.
 
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Simonline

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Since I believe this to be an honest post I will treat it with the respect it deserves and respond to it.

Yes, you are correct. With all my heart I do passionately believe what I wrote in my post. Unlike most people of the late twentieth and early twenty-first century I still hold to a traditional view of reality that is based upon the absolute nature of Truth that says 'If something is true then it's opposite is, by definition, false.'

On this basis (and this basis alone) I believe (with all my heart) that if YHWH has, through His Scriptures, revealed Himself to be Tri-Personal in Nature, then, to believe, against all the Scriptural evidence, that YHWH is Mono-Personal in Nature is to deny the Scriptural revelation as being the true Word of God, replacing it with a false intelectual idol of one's own making.

The Christian gospel is not about having faith in 'God' (i.e. any god in whom we choose to believe according to our own personal preferences) but about having faith in the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures who has revealed Himself to Mankind through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and supremely through His own incarnation as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. Judeo-Christianity is not about believing in any god but about believing in the one and only God who actually objectively exists and who isn't simply a figment of human imagination.

If you are trusting in a Unitarian (i.e. Mono-Personal) god for your salvation then you are trusting in a god who (except in your own vain imagination) does not actually exist and you will only finally realize this as you are cast into the everlasting Lake of Fire with the words of the Messiah ('Depart from me you cursed, into the Lake of Everlasting Fire prepared for the devil and all his angels!' (Matt.25:41)) ringing in your ears...by which time it will definitely bee too late to do anything about it?!

All I can do is warn you (Eze.33:1-20). If you choose to ignore the warnings then you have only yourself to blame if, eventually, you suffer the consequences of not heeding these warnings. The Scriptures teach that God will pour out His wrath upon all those who, through their wickedness, surpress the Truth (Rom.1:18-20). This includes those who redefine God according to their own personal preferences.

What concerns me is the fact that you cannot see the link between the True Nature of God and the gospel. The Christian gospel is about trusting in the God of the Bible, the God who actually exists and not about trusting in our own preferred 'version' of 'God' with which we feel comfortable (?!)

I can't make it any plainer than that.

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Simonline

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No comment

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Simonline

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WOW! Believing in the theory of trinity will determines someone's salvation? .... I think someone needs a ....

Firstly, it isn't a theory. It is how God has revealed Himself to Mankind through His Scriptures and supremely through His incarnation as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. Faith in the Trinitarian Nature of God is fundamental to the Truth that is Judeo-Christianity and not an 'optional extra' (?!) though I guess that like most people on this thread, you will only finally realize this when you are dead (in the absolute sense) which is why you will be weeping and wailing and gnashing your teeth in indescribable anguish.

Now you think it's funny and you laugh and mock me, then you will wish that you had listened to me.

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YeshuamySalvation

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He didn't say anything wrong. It is a theory it is not a fact! I don't have a problem with your concept of the nature of God, i just don't regard it as fact when you are so far from proving it scripturally. Neither is your understanding essential for the salvation of individuals in these forums. You coward away from my arguments because you know they were undermining your beliefs! I just accept the fact that God cannot be completely comprehended by such limited minds as ours! You will be surprise to see those who you hate in the Olam Haba, though i might add that your intense criticism of others in these forums doesn't seem to be representing a fruitful faith!
 
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Kris10leigh

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Since I believe this to be an honest post I will treat it with the respect it deserves and respond to it
Thank you for that. I was indeed being sincere. I have no ill-will toward you.



I don't think it's that I CANNOT "see the link between the True Nature of God and the gospel" as much as that I'm not there yet. You may notice I don't entirely believe the same as most non-trins either. The reason I am seeking to be a Messianic believer is that I believe man has made a muck of things and I'm trying to get back to what Yeshua wanted from us. Who can find fault with that? I try to be spirit led as much as I can, but I am only beginning my journey. So forgive me for not changing my mind based on all you have written, but you are a man. Much of what I believe DOES change as I come to new understandings. I have not yet come to any new understandings on this matter. God has given me many "aha" moments here lately, but I've had none on this particular issue one or way or the other.

That is why I come here to sort through the many different ways we all have of looking at things. I have heard and considered your words, and I will continue to consider them.
 
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Simonline

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Yep, now i understand why you have that attitude! Now i understand why you refuse to answer honest arguments that undermine your beliefs.


For the record, I have never refused to answer any truly honest argument that challenges my Trinitarian belief but, in all my 30+ years as a Christian, I have yet to come accross any honest argument in defence of God as Unitarian in Nature. All such arguments I have invariably found to be either intellectually and/or theologically dishonest or worse, metaphysically contradictory and/or absurd (the many posts on this thread, by cotributors other than myself, more than amply proving my point) which is why Trinitarianism rather than Unitarianism is orthodox Judeo-Christianity?!


What I believe, in accordance with the Scriptures themselves, is that anyone who is not an elect approbate, having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit as to the nature of Truth (1Cor.1:18-2:16) is therefore, by definition, a reprobate son of Perdition who will never understand the truth unless and until they are made regenerate by the Holy Spirit and the fact that such reprobates believe themselves to be 'true believers' will not make any difference to the Truth as both absolute and objective.

It's not about people agreeing with me that what I believe is true since I am not Truth, incarnate as a man. What matters is that people believe the Truth that He, who alone is Truth, has revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. Only then will they be truly regenerate 'born-again' believers. Anyone who refuses to believe the Truth is by definition a reprobate son of Perdition. As the Scriptures teach 'No-one can come to me [i.e. become a true believer] unless the Father, who sent me, draws [i.e. first regenerates] them (Jn.6:44) in which case (and only in which case), they will be able to both receive and believe the Truth.

Yes, as a human being I am required to discern between those who accept the Truth (and are therefore true believers) and those who deny the Truth (and are therefore false or non-believers). Such value judgments are, on a daily basis, an integral part of all human existence (which means that, since you are judging me for making such judgments (implying that you yourself don't make such judgments (unless you admit to being a hypocrite?!)), you must therefore regard yourself as not being human?!

I doubt that anyone who lives in the real world would condemn me for making value judgments simply as part of being human.

It is obvious from what you have written that you have a contemporary view of reality which says that there is no such thing as Truth in the absolute sense, only truth in the subjective sense (i.e. that truth is nothing more than a matter of subjective personal opinion and that everyone's 'truth' (i.e. personal opinion) is as equally valid as everyone else's 'truth' (i.e. personal opinion) and that, for this reason, no-one has the 'right' to either challenge or deny the 'truth' (i.e. personal opinion) of anyone else).

You need to know that this is a totally false understanding of the nature of reality and is directly opposed to reality as defined by YHWH as the One and Only God of Judeo-Christianity [This is why you can't understand a word of what I am saying. We are speaking two entirely different philosophical languages. I hold to the traditional Judeo-Christian understanding of Reality whilst you have been conditioned by the culture of which you are a part to accept the modern relativistic anti-Judeo-Christian understanding of reality which teaches that 'Truth' is whatever we want it to be and no-one can say that your personal 'truth' is either 'right' or 'wrong'. It is simply 'your truth'.] The problem with this modern understanding of Reality is that it is totally contrary to the Reality that actually exists, the one (and only one) that YHWH has actually brought into existence. In that Reality (the one of which you are an intrinsic part (albeit contingently)) Truth (i.e. God [YHWH] Himself) is Absolute in Nature and does not change, ever. Therefore anything that is contrary to Him is, by definition, false. If YHWH exists as Trinitarian then, to believe that He is Unitarian in Nature is to believe a lie (conversely, if YHWH exists as Unitarian, then to believe that He is Trinitarian in Nature is to believe a lie). YHWH CANNOT exist as both Trinitarian and Unitarian simultaneously therefore Unitarianism and trinitarianism CANNOT both be correct. One of them MUST be false. The all important issue is which is true and which is false? On the basis of the Divine Revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) Judeo-Christianity has always believed and taught that YHWH is essentially Trinitarian rather than Unitarian in Nature and it is for this reason that orthodox (i.e. legitimate) Judeo-Christianity is essentially Trinitarian rather than Unitarian in Nature. There have always been those who have refused to accept the Truth prefering instead to believe the lie that YHWH is essentially Unitarian in Nature rather than Trinitarian but the fact that they do does not make Trinitarianism false. The truth or falsehood of Trinitarianism (and Unitarianism for that matter) must be established, not on the basis of 'who can shout the loudest' but rather, on the basis of a fixed and objective canon (i.e. rule/uniform standard) by which to evaluate all the arguments. It is for this reason that we have the canon of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures which every effort must be made to interpret those Scriptures honestly and in their correct context. Only then can we arrive at the correct interpretation of them.

Manipulating the Scriptures in order to make it appear that they are teaching one thing when in fact they are teaching something quite different is both deceitful and dishonest but this is what some people do when they only draw attention to those verses which teach certain aspects of the reality that is YHWH whilst at the same time deliberately ignoring (or denying) those verses that contradict their arguments. Their deceit and dishonesty is further compounded when they deliberately ignore any and all counter-arguments which demonstrate that there are other facets or aspects to the Reality that is YHWH as He has revealed Himself throughout the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Ultimately, a person's destiny will be determined on the basis of whether they upheld the Truth or supressed it. Whilst we can all argue amongst each other until we are blue in the face, the Messiah, being Absolute Reality, will not argue, He will just expose a person's heart as being either stone or flesh and then reward or punish them accordingly.

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Simonline

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If you're foolish enough to base your everlasting destiny upon just one verse of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, ripped out of any and all context, instead of the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the Word of God (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) then there is no hope for you.

The Messiah said what He said (as recorded in Jn.6:57) because He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man (something that would be absolutely impossible for a Unitarian 'God'). The truth is that the Messiah lives because He is both God [YHWH] and man [Jesus of Nazareth]. As both Eternally and Immutably Divine, the Son is dependent upon no-one (Jn.8:58; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13). Only as incarnate human is the Son dependent upon (and subject to) the Father (Jn.14:28).

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YeshuamySalvation

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Well, when you don't have an actual argument why not invent one? I never said there is no such thing as truth and that everyone truth and/or opinions of whats truth are valid as you falsely attributed to me in your post. This post is so far from the truth that it's not even worth responding to. YOU HAVE NOT YET PROVEN that BELIEF IN THE TRINITY IS essential for the Salvation of others. I, nor anyone on these forums will be held accountable by God for not understanding to the fullest his nature. Furthermore, it is impossible for any fallible human to understand this, it is only self proclaimed infallible humans as yourself that require all these philosophies essential for individuals. Philosophies are for the Greeks not for me, sorry!
 
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Simonline

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He didn't say anything wrong. It is a theory it is not a fact!


Not true. The God who exists, exists as Trinitarian in Nature, not Unitarian. That is not a 'theory', it is a Divinely revealed truth (on the basis of which men's everlasting destiny will be determined according to whether they upheld it as such or, as you are doing now, denied it as a figment of depraved human imagination)?!

I don't have a problem with your concept of the nature of God, i just don't regard it as fact when you are so far from proving it scripturally.

I am only 'so far from proving it Scripturally' because you do not want to honestly consider all the Scriptural evidence, preferring instead to accept only those interpretations that agree with your own theological presuppositions and, for that reason, I will NEVER get any closer to 'proving it Scripturally' unless I deny the truth and agreeing with your theological presuppositions, argue accordingly (something that I am not prepared to do)?!

Neither is your understanding essential for the salvation of individuals in these forums.


The Trinitarian understanding of God (as revealed by God through the Scriptures) is fundamental to the Truth and, as such, is integral to salvation for all people everywhere and not just those who patronize this website.

You [cower] away from my arguments because you know they were undermining your beliefs!


I do NOT cower away from your arguments at all (that allegation is both dishonest and libelous)?! None of your arguments so far have made any sense. If anything they have been both contradictory and absurd (as I have already pointed out). Your arguments thus far have been too contradictory and absurd to come anywhere near 'undermining my beliefs'?!

If you can put an honest, intelligent and cohesive argument together either in defense of Unitarianism or against Trinitarianism then, and only then, will I give it serious attention (any honest and cohesive argument will always be treated by me with the respect it deserves). So far, every argument you have put forward on this thread, far from being cohesive and intelligent, would be thrown out of any serious theological discussion with howls of derisive laughter. There is a lot more to disproving an argument than citing a few out of context Biblical texts and trying to make it appear as if those texts are the sum total of what the Bible says concerning a given subject.

I just accept the fact that God cannot be completely comprehended by such limited minds as ours!

Whilst that is true, what isn't true is that we cannot comprehend God at all (otherwise why would God go to all the trouble of having the Divinely inspired writings of annointed men brought together and collated into the Judeo-Christian Scriptures)?!

You will be surprise to see those who you hate in the Olam Haba, though i might add that your intense criticism of others in these forums doesn't seem to be representing a fruitful faith!

It isn't people I hate but falsehood. Furthermore standing for the truth isn't about bearing fruit it's about remaining faithful to the Truth in the teeth of universal unbelief irrespective of whether people agree with you or not (what fruit did Noah bear during his 120 years whilst he was bulding the ark)?! Unlike you, I do not believe that Truth is determined by majority opinion and I know that I would still be right even if I was the only human left of the planet who, like Noah and His family, still believed what the Scriptures actually teach.

Simonline.
 
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