Should we not be seeking unity?

[SBG]

I think the whole problem is that we all are spending too much time looking at each other and too little time looking around. We shouldn't attack others, we should discuss what others believe. But what could I possibly say to have you YEC people make peace with me the great distorter of God's Words and the revealed truth through the Apostolic Fathers?

What should we be looking at? Science, or how the Apostles taught and the early Church Fathers that followed after them? How about Jesus who taught a literal global flood? Of His teaching of a real creation event as written?

Shernren, my comments were directed at Vance and him only. I apologize, but I have become rather tired of having to explain my comments made to a specific individual to another person who takes them personally, rather than they were intended, at the specific person and only that person.

(Other than "I give up! You guys are right, even if I don't believe it!" )

Ok lemme ask something objective. Assuming (just for a split second) that we don't take into account the sayings and teachings of the Fathers. Then, by the Bible alone, would the Bible suffer in any way from loss of integrity if the Genesis origin passages were treated not as historical truth but rather as foundational assumptions of the Christian worldview? Things that don't exist can be very very real and true.

To give a specific example: what if when Paul wrote that sin came before death, he was not referring to a historical Garden-of-Eden fall, but to the foundational reality that sin is the cause of total (complete-human) death? Would that position in any way insult the Bible or Apostle Paul?

Let us discount the Church Fathers and we have Paul speaking against the Greeks who believed in a very old earth and the earth spontaneously producing life in Acts 17. We have Jesus Christ speaking of Noah, Peter speaking of Noah, both as a literal global flood. We have Exodus, twice referring to a six day creation, as well of course as Genesis. We have Jesus speaking of a literal creation as Genesis states. Paul refers to Genesis, as does Peter and John.

If Paul taught differently than he taught in the Bible, we would have to look at it in context and interpret accordingly. But you are asking for the Bible to be what it is not. Shall we just snip out those parts we don't like in the Bible?

 

[herev]

Shernren, my comments were directed at Vance and him only. I apologize, but I have become rather tired of having to explain my comments made to a specific individual to another person who takes them personally, rather than they were intended, at the specific person and only that person.

and yet in just another thread in this forum, you don't mind jumping on to something I said to someone else and trying to get me to explain...

 

[shernren]

nothing needs to be historical which is true. and if you don't get what I'm trying to say (which doesn't at all need you to actually be convinced by it) then yes, there's nothing I can say that will placate you all.

 

[Remus]

I think the whole problem is that we all are spending too much time looking at each other and too little time looking around. We shouldn't attack others, we should discuss what others believe.

Doing good so far.

But what could I possibly say to have you YEC people make peace with me the great distorter of God's Words and the revealed truth through the Apostolic Fathers?

(Other than "I give up! You guys are right, even if I don't believe it!" )

Just as a suggestion, you would have a better chance of open dialog without this section. If it's a joke, then we can clear up this misunderstanding, but you shouldn't be surprised if someone takes it as being antagonistic.

Ok lemme ask something objective. Assuming (just for a split second) that we don't take into account the sayings and teachings of the Fathers. Then, by the Bible alone, would the Bible suffer in any way from loss of integrity if the Genesis origin passages were treated not as historical truth but rather as foundational assumptions of the Christian worldview? Things that don't exist can be very very real and true.

This is hard to say. I'm going to give a qualified 'no' at this time. Speaking for myself, I believe there is some flexibility. But this flexibility can only go so far. For example, I believe that there would have to be a literal Adam and Eve. That sort of thing.

To give a specific example: what if when Paul wrote that sin came before death, he was not referring to a historical Garden-of-Eden fall, but to the foundational reality that sin is the cause of total (complete-human) death?

I believe that this would be a bit of a stretch.

 

[Vance]

SBG:

Do you find it equally offensive to faith when someone says that if God created through evolution, then Scripture should be thrown out? Why are you not condemning that type of statement?

Think about all the statements that if you accept evolution, you are placing man's thinking above God's Word? That is not attacking someone's Christian faith?

And, no, I have never once asked you to say that two different interpretations can be correct. Only one of the two interpretations can be correct, obviously. One of us is simply wrong about whether it should be read as strict literal history or not. What I have pointed out is that whichever is correct DOESN'T MATTER, because it is not a salvation issue. All those theological issues that DO MATTER, we agree upon. So, all I have asked is that we present the issue to others IN THAT WAY.

And, no, this is not all about me. The only reason I say anything about myself is because either it provides an example of something I am discussing, or because someone like you has made a personal attack and the information is necesary to show the attack is unjustified.

SBG, I have never attacked you personally, and I never will. But your repeated personal attacks are distressing to see from a fellow Christian.

 

[SBG]

and yet in just another thread in this forum, you don't mind jumping on to something I said to someone else and trying to get me to explain...

Phew... wow! This post I made REALLY fell on deaf ears. Once again, I was not talking about you herev. When I am talking about you or to you, I will use your name for I have no problem talking directing to you.

 

[]RiSeN[]

"Keep on seaching first the kingdom and its righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you"-Matthew 6:33"for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to the Christ, i truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward. But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."-Mark 9:40-42

 

[Vance]

"Keep on seaching first the kingdom and its righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you"-Matthew 6:33"for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to the Christ, i truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward. But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."-Mark 9:40-42

Exactly. This is the point I have been making all along. We should strive to remove any unecessary stumbling-blocks.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I thought i'd let Jesus get this one for ya Vance.

 

[Vance]

I thought i'd let Jesus get this one for ya Vance.

He always comes through . . .

What a guy!

 

[SBG]

Most yec's here have never told someone believe Genesis is literal history or lose salvation. We are talking about sound doctrine and good theology.

As Remus and I have stated, but so many have ignored, we don't have a problem with evolution. I am though not tolerant of one who manipulates Scripture to suit their own world view. If the Bible literally preached evolutionism I would be the biggest evolutionists you have ever seen. But it does not. Nor do I go out and speak with non-Christians about origins, but rather with Jesus Christ crucified.

Honestly, I don't think any of you understand or have made an attempt to undersatnd what many of us have said.

 

[Vance]

Remus said that if he found out God created through evolution he would consider Scripture to be unreliable and discard it, and abandon Christianity. mhess said the Bible would be worthless. Another said they would commit suicide.

 

[herev]

Phew... wow! This post I made REALLY fell on deaf ears. Once again, I was not talking about you herev. When I am talking about you or to you, I will use your name for I have no problem talking directing to you.

why is it ok for you to jump in and "correct" me when I was not talking to you, but you want me to refrain unless I'm addressed directly?

 

[herev]

Honestly, I don't think any of you understand or have made an attempt to undersatnd what many of us have said.

based on the rest of this post, the same is certainly true of you

 

[SBG]

why is it ok for you to jump in and "correct" me when I was not talking to you, but you want me to refrain unless I'm addressed directly?

When were you not talking to me? About mhess? I jumped in because you jump all over him for nothing. You now have taken what I have said specifically to one person to mean I was talking to you.

I never thought you were talking to me about mhess.

 

[SBG]

based on the rest of this post, the same is certainly true of you

Well that is your opinion.

 

[Vance]

Kind of ironic that in a post which I started to call for unity among Christians in their presentation of this issue (while agreeing to disagree on the non-essentials), it eventually results in YEC's making repeated personal attacks. All too familiar, but still very sad.

 

[SBG]

Kind of ironic that in a post which I started to call for unity among Christians in their presentation of this issue (while agreeing to disagree on the non-essentials), it eventually results in YEC's making repeated personal attacks. All too familiar, but still very sad.

You are seeking us to comprise between God's word and the Man's word. Just isn't going to happen. Don't know what to tell you, but sorry and move on.

 

[Vance]

You are seeking us to comprise between God's word and the Man's word. Just isn't going to happen. Don't know what to tell you, but sorry and move on.

Great, let's get back to discussing the issue, then, rather than just having YEC's make personal attacks. There are a lot of substantive threads to consider.

 

[Amongst the Flock]

Romans 11:11-12

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather because of their transgression or lawlessness, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring.

Paul’s vision was to see unity between Jews and Gentiles in the church. While respecting the law of God this true church would unite as one and look to Jesus alone for salvation. A person’s ethnic back round and social status would not matter for God does not show favoritism and loves each and every human being the same. All that will matter is our faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior to the entire world. This one united church has not happened yet. The problem is that many of the Jews relied on their heritage as “God’s Chosen People” as enough to save them. In turn they rejected the Gospel of Jesus and rejected him as the “Messiah”. Their hearts were tied up in worldly things and they expected some great king to come out of the sky rather then God coming as a humble servant to serve the will of the one who sent him. This is where the faith of the Jews broke them down for they were expecting this supernatural king to come out of heaven. Since the Jews decided to rebel and be satisfied with the riches of the creation rather then on the creator it opened the door for the Gentiles to take over. When the Gentiles did become great in number and in fact took over the churches they began to reject the Jews and even began to persecute them. It does however state that when Jews decide to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior that they will come back strong and reward greater riches then if they just accepted Jesus in the first place.

John 3:16 raps it up "For God so loved the World" God created all of us in his image but we fell short of his glory because of Adam's sin. Jesus redeemed us, justified us of sin, and reconciled us with the Father.

romans 2:11 God does not show favortism and in James 2:1 favortism is forbidden amongst ourselves.

We are all equal but come from different tribes and one day every knee shall bow and confess with their tongues that Jesus is Lord over all to the glory of Father God.

The problem is which religion is the best for all to belong to. Every denomination isn't going to give up their beliefs to conform to another church that differs from their belief

All Glory to Jesus.