Should we just forget about it?

[seajoy]

There are days when I just want to throw up my hands - or just throw up. I'm not starting this thread in the general TCL forum, because I'll have to prove where I got my information etc.... I like to protect the innocent.

A lady that I go to church with visited some relatives recently, and went to their ELCA church. In the bulletin it stated that they practice open Communion because it is a symbol. My pastor has seen the bulletin....I have not. He said it is very obvious why they are in fellowship with other denominations. The Lutheran teaching on Holy Communion has been thrown out.

Many have closed their eyes to what has happened in the ELCA....some right here on this forum. Should we just leave them to their ways and let it go like it's nothing? Or should these things be brought up here in the forum? If people refuse to open their eyes, what is the point? We are just accused of being closed minded - or even liars that this stuff even happens. Should we just forget about it?

 

[Zecryphon]

There are days when I just want to throw up my hands - or just throw up. I'm not starting this thread in the general TCL forum, because I'll have to prove where I got my information etc.... I like to protect the innocent.

A lady that I go to church with visited some relatives recently, and went to their ELCA church. In the bulletin it stated that they practice open Communion because it is a symbol. My pastor has seen the bulletin....I have not. He said it is very obvious why they are in fellowship with other denominations. The Lutheran teaching on Holy Communion has been thrown out.

Many have closed their eyes to what has happened in the ELCA....some right here on this forum. Should we just leave them to their ways and let it go like it's nothing? Or should these things be brought up here in the forum? If people refuse to open their eyes, what is the point? We are just accused of being closed minded - or even liars that this stuff even happens. Should we just forget about it?

No, we should do what we always do, defend the Scriptural teaching of Communion, and re-iterate what the Confessions teach on this subject. The ELCA says they are in line with the Confessions on this issue, but as I proved last month, they clearly are not and it's by their own admission that we know this. We need to be diligent and still proclaim the truth to everyone. Maybe, just maybe, a deaf ear will be made to hear the truth because of God working through us.

 

[Tangible]

I wish we could see the exact text. Do you happen to know what specific church it was? Maybe they have a website that says the same thing.

 

[seajoy]

I wish we could see the exact text. Do you happen to know what specific church it was? Maybe they have a website that says the same thing.

I do not know the name of the church. I'm taking my pastor's word for it on what the bulletin said. He read it, as the person from our congregation showed it to him. I get very nervous thinking about involving others in my crazy forum stuff. Paranoid is a good word for it.

Anyway - it probably wasn't worth my effort to bring it up. It was just frustrating to hear about, especially when we keep hearing that all is well with the ELCA teaching the Confessions.

 

[jonathan1971]

Many have closed their eyes to what has happened in the ELCA....some right here on this forum. Should we just leave them to their ways and let it go like it's nothing? Or should these things be brought up here in the forum? If people refuse to open their eyes, what is the point? We are just accused of being closed minded - or even liars that this stuff even happens. Should we just forget about it?

It's frustrating to see what we do in a liberal church and at the same time watch people who call themselves christian deny that it is happening. If they refuse to open their eyes and remain in fellowship with said church then let them to it. Hopefully they'll come to a correct understanding but how much are we supposed to do. If they refuse correction then I'd let it go. I wouldn't stop from defending the truth especially when "outsiders" come here but you can only do so much talking. Ultimatly religion is a matter of conscience. Present them the truth and if the don't want to hear it fine.

I hope that helps I started writing it four different times.....I understand your frustration.

 

[seajoy]

It's frustrating to see what we do in a liberal church and at the same time watch people who call themselves christian deny that it is happening. If they refuse to open their eyes and remain in fellowship with said church then let them to it. Hopefully they'll come to a correct understanding but how much are we supposed to do. If they refuse correction then I'd let it go. I wouldn't stop from defending the truth especially when "outsiders" come here but you can only do so much talking. Ultimatly religion is a matter of conscience. Present them the truth and if the don't want to hear it fine.

I hope that helps I started writing it four different times.....I understand your frustration.

The part where you said "refuse correction" makes a lot of sense. We can't cram it down their throats. I've tried that.

 

[Zecryphon]

The part where you said "refuse correction" makes a lot of sense. We can't cram it down their throats. I've tried that.

Sure we can. How else are they going to throw it back up and re-arrange it to their liking as opposed to what God's Word and the Confessions say?

 

[Studeclunker]

There comes a time when one must just turn away from the unrepentant sinner and banish them. It's called shunning, a practice that's associated with the Amish and not Lutherans.

As Lutherans we have a problem that we need to address; That problem happens to be liberalism and heterodox organizations that claim to be bretheren. These people claim not only to be Lutheran but Christian. By their actions, policies, doctrines, and teachings they prove the lies of their claims. Yes, there are some people, here in this forum as a matter of fact, that are still firmly grounded in good Christian doctrine. However, these people persist in associating themselves with this fallen, heterodox organization. We have given that organization years, many years, to mend their ways. They have persisted in their sins, heresies, and behaviour and refuse to repent. Quite the contrary, they condescendingly insist we are the ones in error! A sign of total unrepentance.

I do not say to withdraw from this forum. Quite the contrary, we should stay. However, we should avoid any conversation with them and refuse to allow them to converse or participate in our area. Will this help? The Bible says it will. Sometimes we just have to do what we're told in Scripture and take it on faith that it will work.

The time for dialogue is over.
The time for correction is over.
The time for understanding is over.

They have refused dialogue, correction, and understanding. This heterodox organization persists in claiming to be Lutheran and Christian, an offense to Christ himself!

Does not scripture say; 'if your brother is sinning, go to him and point out his sin, in love and humility. If he refuses your council, then bring another two or more brothers (whitnesses) to also council him. If he persists in his sin, have nothing more to do with him!' The Apostle Paul went so far as to order the Church to pray for one individual's physical death in order that his eternal soul might not be also lost. See also: Rom, 16:17-18, I Cor, 5:11, II Tim, 2:16-17a.

This (understanding, compassion, dialogue...) has been attempted for years and this organization has persisted with their behaviour. No amount of understanding or kindness will persuade these people of their errors. The time has long been past to shun them.

Should we just give up and leave it at that? No. As long as there's life, there's hope. However, correction without consequences is a toothless guard dog!

Have I violated the rules of this forum with this post? Absolutely not! It is not quite yet a violation to point out the truth!

I firmly no longer believe that TCL is a proper place for us to participate anymore. If we do, responding to any of these liberals must be on a basis of patiently ignoring them. Sometimes the sound of silence is so deafening as to produce a shout that can finally pierce a self-imposed deafness.

 

[DaRev]

The time to comment is when a newcomer makes an inquiry and receives a wrong answer. They can be given the truth without directly engaging the errant party.

 

[seajoy]

The time to comment is when a newcomer makes an inquiry and receives a wrong answer. They can be given the truth without directly engaging the errant party.

This is a good post. The newcomer is very important.

But I'm kind of with Stude on this - my days of trying to correct errant here are past.

 

[filosofer]

Just a note: Many years ago I was accused of being a heretic by a fellow pastor who had a member visit our congregation. What was reported to the pastor and what actually took place were not exactly the same. That didn’t deter him from making an accusation-- oh btw, he didn’t bother talking to me either. He just announced it at a Circuit winkel, when I happened not to be there because of another commitment. It was easily refuted when I did find out about it, but several other pastors never trusted me again because of that.

It may be fine to be a hunter, but how do you know when you become the hunted?

 

[Studeclunker]

Just a note: Many years ago I was accused of being a heretic by a fellow pastor who had a member visit our congregation. What was reported to the pastor and what actually took place were not exactly the same. That didn’t deter him from making an accusation-- oh btw, he didn’t bother talking to me either. He just announced it at a Circuit winkel, when I happened not to be there because of another commitment. It was easily refuted when I did find out about it, but several other pastors never trusted me again because of that.

It may be fine to be a hunter, but how do you know when you become the hunted?

A very valid point Filo. Kind of like saying one doesn't want another inquisition like the RC's that got way out of hand. Still, if one continues to second guess themselves then nothing at all will be done. I do hope the individual who was guilty of False Witness against you was severely diciplined.

Thereto, where do we draw the line? Is it when the erring party practices a particularly vile sin (in the eyes of God) unashamed and unrepentantly, and calls it acceptable? And in fact allows these practitioners of sin to lead their congregations? Is it when the erring party allows their members to worship gods like Ashera in their sanctuary? What do we do (apparently nothing) when our erring brothers do things that fly in the face of scripture, like ordaining women, and dismiss us by dismissing large blocs of scripture as irrelevant to modern times?

I do seem to recall reading in Scripture that if we sit idly by and do nothing at all, we are sharing in their sin.

Revrand, exactly what I meant. However I would ignore the other party completely. Just post as if nothing except the blowing of the wind had occurred (down wind from the dump or sewage treatment plant).

The newcomer is vitally important. However, they need to be steered out of TCL into this forum if possible.

 

[filosofer]

I do hope the individual who was guilty of False Witness against you was severely diciplined.

Ah, no. He was congratulated by quite a few for being a "faithful conservative watchdog."

 

[seajoy]

Ah, no. He was congratulated by quite a few for being a "faithful conservative watchdog."

That is certainly awful.....especially knowing you. I am shocked, actually.

I tend to take things very much to heart. So, I'm feeling that you think this didn't really happen in the bulletin. That it never said what my pastor told me. I don't know what else to think by your telling the terrible story that happened to you.

Perhaps we just shouldn't talk about this stuff anymore. I certainly don't have the answers in all this. It just pains me to watch.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I wish we could see the exact text. Do you happen to know what specific church it was? Maybe they have a website that says the same thing.

I agree. Without knowing the congregation's position, it's impossible to discuss it.

I think - in this silence - we should keep Luther's counsel and "put the best construction" on it.





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[DaRev]

I tend to take things very much to heart. So, I'm feeling that you think this didn't really happen in the bulletin. That it never said what my pastor told me. I don't know what else to think by your telling the terrible story that happened to you.

I think you misunderstood Filo's post.

 

[seajoy]

I think you misunderstood Filo's post.

After reading Josiah's post as well, I don't think so. I've pretty much been labeled a gossip at best. Forgive me folks.....I will keep my thoughts to myself.

 

[alexnbethmom]

ang - i don't think filo's and CJ's posts mean what you think they do.....i didn't get that from those posts, and neither did Rev....

i agree to an extent with everybody that's posted here - we need to make sure that the correct information is provided to newcomers to this (main) forum, and we should probably just completely ignore those that we have butted heads with continually.....there comes a point in time when you have said your piece often enough and they have called you fool often enough, that you need to leave them to their own (detrimental) devices....unfortunately.

 

[porterross]

People who don't gather as many facts available as possible set themselves up to be misled, IMO. Gossip rarely benefits anyone as Scripture tells us and as Filo has already shown, no one likes to be on the wrong side of it. How quickly many of us forget what that feels like and TCL is certainly not immune to helping create those bad feelings.

 

[alexnbethmom]

People who don't gather as many facts available as possible set themselves up to be misled, IMO. Gossip rarely benefits anyone as Scripture tells us and as Filo has already shown, no one likes to be on the wrong side of it. How quickly many of us forget what that feels like and TCL is certainly not immune to helping create those bad feelings.

as far as i can tell, nobody is talking about gossiping - what ang posted about was fact, (and i do believe it was fact, because angie would not post something that wasn't), not gossip.

she isn't falsely accusing anyone - least of all anybody here on this board - we are talking about whether to continue correcting the wrong information or just leave them to their own devices.