Should the minimum wage be hiked?

I think this should be left up to the states according to their own economy. Some states are obviously cheaper to live in than others.

If the government will hike the minimum wage to $15.00 across the board, that would probably crush small businesses and result in job losses. Let the states decide upon their own economies.

All good things
Emmy

Hank77 said:

Now that is clear. But there are many jobs that one can't do more work in 40 hrs. Especially low paying jobs. Retail clerks, restaurant workers, many hotel workers, basically almost all customer service jobs.

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Sure, I said that full time workers world have to do more work. More work does not equal more hours.

Many years ago when I was in college I worked in a shoe store. There were three full time people and three of we part timers. One of the part timers came in every week when the shipment of new shoes arrived and got all the new shoes on the shelves. When the minimum wage went up her position was eliminated. Those duties were given to the the two full time people, who simply had to find time to do that work on top of everything else they did.

Sparagmos said:

Which is moot, since few companies downsized due to min wage increases. That’s just the fear everyone had but we now know it isn’t the reality.

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But that is in states like Washington where the economy can support the higher wages. If a Federal $15/hour minimum wage were adopted nationwide trust me we would have significant downsizing where I live in West Virginia.

Foxfyre said:

Yes they are completely separate economic measurements. But so few people stay at minimum wage if they are worth more than minimum wage, it really isn't much of an issue. All that significantly raising the minimum wage will accomplish is to shut more of the difficult to employ out of the labor market again. Currently due to a booming employee many are getting jobs where they can acquire skills, develop a work ethic, acquire references etc. and are on their way to experiencing the pride of self reliance and accomplishment.

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Hi foxfyre,

Yes, most of what you said is agreed. Although, I'm wondering who the 'booming employee' is. The fact that most people don't stay at minimum wage long is even more reason to question why it is so low. However, for many, they may stay at minimum wage level for 6 months and that's six months that they'll struggle to support their family. Those in your explanation that apparently aren't 'worth more than minimum wage' may stay at that wage rate for even longer.

For a company to be able to legally pay someone $7.25/hr just seems terribly cheap to me. If most businesses hire on at more than $7.25/hr, then why have it at such a low level? As I said, I'm not much concerned with raising it to $15/hr nationwide, but $7.25 is equally as ludicrous at the other end of the spectrum. In a bad labor market it allows employers to take advantage of their new hires and low skilled labor, even though they're still going to have the same bills to pay.

Further, one other consideration is that the minimum wage hasn't been changed in 10 years and yet the Fed says that healthy inflation is 2%/year. This means that in a healthy economy, according to the Fed, minimum wage workers are constantly losing value in their paychecks. Perhaps we should do the same with minimum wage that we do with COLA adjustments in other cost/pay equations. SS makes COLA adjustments based on some inflationary mark. Why not do the same with minimum wage. Make it a fairly constantly moving value. Say, once every two years the minimum wage is adjusted based on such mark.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hank77 said:

Every state does have a minimum wage. My state is $11.10 an hr. and goes up to 12.00 next yr. How's our economy? GDP growth rate of 3.2% and overall rate one of the top in the nation.
Washington state's minimum wage is $12.00 going up to 13.50 next yr. They are rated number two best economy, only DC is ahead of them and DC's min.wage is $14.00.
Then you have TX min.wage 7.25 and ranked 4th best economy, oil/gas...
There are a few other states where it's 7.25 and they are ranked in the top ten. There's others with 11.00-12.00 and they are ranked in the top ten.
So it appears to me that the minimum wage doesn't have that much to do with how the economies perform. There many other factors to take into consideration.
Still I think the federal min. wage should be increased over the next three yrs. to reach at least $10.

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Sure. I agree that the economy is doing good! The debate is whether or not the economy would even be better than it is if the minimum wages were actually lifted completely or not.

Some businesses exist only because of the ability to hire at minimum wages. Raise the minimum too high and they close the doors.

OldWiseGuy said:

Some businesses exist only because of the ability to hire at minimum wages. Raise the minimum too high and they close the doors.

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Hi OWG,

Yes, and I'd have to say that such a business likely isn't being run well. If a business can't make enough revenue to pay its insurance premiums, what happens? If a business can't produce enough revenue to buy more product, what happens to that business? If a business can't produce enough revenue to pay its electric bill, what happens to that business.

Payroll is just another fixed cost for which a business owner needs to be able to cover if he's going to have a successful business. Personally, if a small business owner with say 4 employees isn't producing enough revenue to pay out an additional $200/week in payroll expenses, then that business owner shouldn't be in business to begin with.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited said:

Hi OWG,

Yes, and I'd have to say that such a business likely isn't being run well. If a business can't make enough revenue to pay its insurance premiums, what happens? If a business can't produce enough revenue to buy more product, what happens to that business? If a business can't produce enough revenue to pay its electric bill, what happens to that business.

Payroll is just another fixed cost for which a business owner needs to be able to cover if he's going to have a successful business. Personally, if a small business owner with say 4 employees isn't producing enough revenue to pay out an additional $200/week in payroll expenses, then that business owner shouldn't be in business to begin with.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

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True. Many failed businesses are under-capitalized, poorly managed, or ill-conceived in the first place. Eight of ten new businesses fail with a year or two for these and other reasons.

Gigimo said:

And I've noticed it's become cheaper to buy some of the same items at ebay. Got an email advertising a yard spinner at Amazon for right around $67-70, found the same one at ebay for $35-37 and on walmart for $40. All of them listed free shipping so got it at walmart since I had a gift card from Fathers Day should arrive later this week. Have also noticed it seems to take longer than it used to to receive items bought thru Amazon now.

Didn't Bezos come out and say/admit that his company would one day go bankrupt and close it's doors, you have to wonder if he had wages in mind when he said that??

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My guess is that he had in mind the absolute truth that nothing lasts forever. No business will be around forever - no matter how big. Look at GE.

Times and needs change. Companies come and go. Amazon will be no different.

DZoolander said:

My guess is that he had in mind the absolute truth that nothing lasts forever. No business will be around forever - no matter how big. Look at GE.

Times and needs change. Companies come and go. Amazon will be no different.

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So true. The Pennsylvania Railroad was the Standard Railroad of the World. It was having financial problems by the 50s. Merged with the New York Central in 1968. Declared bankruptcy in 1969. Taken over by Conrail in 1976. Conrail, in turn, was divided up by Norfolk Southern and CSX. The old PRR no longer exists.

Archivist said:

But that is in states like Washington where the economy can support the higher wages. If a Federal $15/hour minimum wage were adopted nationwide trust me we would have significant downsizing where I live in West Virginia.

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$15 is the opening proposal and min wage increases are always phased in. I trust the data and economists and people who have first hand accounts of things that have actually happened, not a non-expert’s prediction.

Here’s the thing, when you give low income people more income, they spend every penny of it. That means demand for goods and services increase and more money flows into the economy. Here in Oregon, we have a lower minimum wage for rural areas. That could be negotiated in the deal.

OldWiseGuy said:

True. Many failed businesses are under-capitalized, poorly managed, or ill-conceived in the first place. Eight of ten new businesses fail with a year or two for these and other reasons.

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Hi OWG,

Right! Why should some poor worker pay for some unwise person who thinks they can run a business...but can't? That worker is likely doing the best that they can as their position allows to help the unwise business person operate his business. He should get a fair wage for his work.

As I say, if a going business can't afford to kick in a couple of hundred more dollars per week to pay their employees a fair wage, or a start up business hasn't planned forward enough to allow for paying fair wages to their employees, then they shouldn't be in business.

Secondly, not paying your employees a fair wage generally is going to mean higher turnover and constant training of new employees. This is just like the person who's always buying the cheapest product on the market, but expecting the value of the more expensive one. Life just doesn't work that way.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Sparagmos said:

$15 is the opening proposal and min wage increases are always phased in. I trust the data and economists and people who have first hand accounts of things that have actually happened, not a non-expert’s prediction.

Here’s the thing, when you give low income people more income, they spend every penny of it. That means demand for goods and services increase and more money flows into the economy. Here in Oregon, we have a lower minimum wage for rural areas. That could be negotiated in the deal.

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If a lower wage for areas where the economy is depressed was part of a Federal Law I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As I said, a $15 minimum wage for West Virginia would really hurt our businesses.

miamited said:

Hi foxfyre,

Yes, most of what you said is agreed. Although, I'm wondering who the 'booming employee' is.

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I'm sure she meant booming employment i.e. booming economy.

OldWiseGuy said:

I'm sure she meant booming employment i.e. booming economy.

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Probably, although a terrorist could probably be called a booming employee.

Hi archivist,

Having been born and raised in WV, it is my testimony that WV has always, much like Mississippi, been a depressed state as far as wages and worker rights and safety. One might wonder if it isn't the fear of just raising the wages and making businesses work to pay their employees that is the root of that problem.

Why are WV and MS always on the bottom, by far, of state rankings for such things as wages and opportunities? Is it really that the people are just not bright or that the government doesn't just go ahead and force businesses to treat their employees fairly on this issue of wages. I know for a fact that many of WV's governors and state line leaders have been pretty corrupt. I don't know if that's changed, but it could well be something that has always kept the average person in that state down.

You see, as I understand it, the only reason that a business that is expected to pay a fair wage would go out of business is because their business model is to undercut the competition. I mean if this widget maker in Wisconsin can pay its employees $12/hr and sell its product for a profit, why can't the WV business? If the WV business closes its doors, then everyone in WV will be forced to buy their widgets from the Wisconsin supplier who's paying better wages. If they can afford to buy their widgets from the Wisconsin supplier who's paying better wages, then why can't they buy their widgets from the WV supplier who also pays reasonably equivalent wages?

I've honestly never really understood the argument that raising wages across the board would put businesses out of business. If everyone is playing by the same rules then one business, because it's located in a different part of the country, shouldn't have a particularly great advantage over another business that is doing the same thing.

WV, as I've understood it, has a couple of significant problems. One is that they've never put much value in raising the skill level of their people. Two is that they've had real problems with corrupt government. They have for many, many years allowed big business to run the show and big business has always kept the employees unsafe and underpaid, if they could get away with and WV government allows them to get away with it.

My father owned an insurance agency in S. Charleston until he died some 20 years ago. He tried to entice me to come to work with him and I flat out told him that I had no intention of ever moving to a state like WV. God has blessed it with great natural beauty and so it is a wonderful place to visit. But, to live there? Not in my lifetime.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Archivist said:

Probably, although a terrorist could probably be called a booming employee.

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A disgruntled one at that.

Archivist said:

Probably, although a terrorist could probably be called a booming employee.

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Hi archivist,

Very good! Hadn't thought of that one. LOL

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited said:

Why are WV and MS always on the bottom, by far, of state rankings for such things as wages and opportunities?

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They're also always near the bottom on employment (Unemployment Rates for States). I'm not sure how raising the cost of business would help., and in any case, it's hard to see why low wages is causal to low opportunities and higher unemployment.

Yekcidmij said:

They're also always near the bottom on employment (Unemployment Rates for States). I'm not sure how raising the cost of business would help., and in any case, it's hard to see why low wages is causal to low opportunities and higher unemployment.

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Hi yekcidmij,

I'm not sure how raising the cost of business would help either. However, what I know is that while they historically have paid lower wages, it doesn't seem to have helped in making them higher ranked and so maybe going the other way is the answer to the problem. Maybe paying a more fair wage would allow their people to live a better life. A better life that would raise their standard of living so that they aren't always on the bottom of these lists. I think one must consider that it is possible that paying some of the lowest wages may equate to the poverty and decline in the states overall economy. Maybe the state could come up off the bottom if it put more emphasis on answering the worker's issues rather than siding more with the businesses issues. Just a thought.

Or, they can be satisfied where they are in such rankings and just keep the status quo. All I know is that there wasn't any way that my father was going to entice me to move back to WV after I left, knowing the general plight of the WV economy.

God bless,
In Christ, ted