Should the minimum wage be hiked?

mukk_in · Jul 9, 2019

Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

Links:

$15 Minimum Wage Would Bring Mixed Fortunes for U.S. Workers

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/8/20686392/federal-15-minimum-wage-raise-the-wage-act

alsughasoughaiuyfygh · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2019

mukk_in said:
Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

Links:

$15 Minimum Wage Would Bring Mixed Fortunes for U.S. Workers

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/8/20686392/federal-15-minimum-wage-raise-the-wage-act

What is the point of raising it to $15 if we still have 10 million plus illegals still here who will take those same jobs for half of that? I learned a trade in 1980 and can't recall how many times I got underbid on jobs that should have been mine first, by illegals. That aside. The last job I had the man I was working for, he was paying me $20 an hour. Even though I have made far more than $20 an hour before, meaning when I was subcontracting, I still felt $20 an hour was a decent wage at the time. And if they raise the min to $15, it basically means I was barely making above min wage at the time.

mukk_in · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
What is the point of raising it to $15 if we still have 10 million plus illegals still here who will take those same jobs for half of that? I learned a trade in 1980 and can't recall how many times I got underbid on jobs that should have been mine first, by illegals. That aside. The last job I had the man I was working for, he was paying me $20 an hour. Even though I have made far more than $20 an hour before, meaning when I was subcontracting, I still felt $20 an hour was a decent wage at the time. And if they raise the min to $15, it basically means I was barely making above min wage at the time.

I hadn't thought of that. Great point brother.

Gigimo · Jul 9, 2019

mukk_in said:
Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

And I've noticed it's become cheaper to buy some of the same items at ebay. Got an email advertising a yard spinner at Amazon for right around $67-70, found the same one at ebay for $35-37 and on walmart for $40. All of them listed free shipping so got it at walmart since I had a gift card from Fathers Day should arrive later this week. Have also noticed it seems to take longer than it used to to receive items bought thru Amazon now.

Didn't Bezos come out and say/admit that his company would one day go bankrupt and close it's doors, you have to wonder if he had wages in mind when he said that??

Sparagmos · Jul 9, 2019

mukk_in said:
Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

Links:

$15 Minimum Wage Would Bring Mixed Fortunes for U.S. Workers

https://www.vox.com/2019/7/8/20686392/federal-15-minimum-wage-raise-the-wage-act

I couldn’t read the first article (paywall) but the second only gave specifics on studies that show there has been minimal job loss due to raising the min wage. It’s certainly what we’ve seen here in the Northwest, we raised the min wage and have very low unemployment, lower than the national average. In the low wage sectors, there are more jobs than employees right now. As a union contract negotiator, I’ve seen the biggest gains for above min wage workers ever, driven by the raising of the floor.

Sparagmos · Jul 9, 2019

Rene Loup said:
I wouldn't say so. My province raised minimum wage when the oil industry was still booming and it resulted in things getting more expensive and people getting laid off after the oil crash. I was actually laid off partly due to the minimum wage hike. My job was a family owned business who couldn't afford to hire a worker who had health problems. Before I was making minimum wage and now I'm making no wage at all.

I also think it will contribute to wealthy business owners replacing low skilled workers with machines. We've come so far in robotics and artificial intelligence that one day universal basic income won't seem like an outrageous idea anymore. Sure, work gives us purpose but what happens when only engineers and programmers can get jobs?

That’s really unfortunate, but that’s not what we’ve seen here in the U.S. in places where we’ve raised the min wage. Unemployment is super low and non min wage workers have also seen a boost. Cost of living here (housing) was skyrocketing before the min wage went up and has now leveled off, not due to the min wage increase of course, but that hasn’t caused an increase in expenses that I’m aware of.

Hank77 · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
I learned a trade in 1980 and can't recall how many times I got underbid on jobs that should have been mine first, by illegals.

You knew they were illegal why didn't you turn them in to immigration?

bèlla · Jul 9, 2019

I suspect this is moving us towards the Universal Basic Income. The Fortune article was telling and its marketing will appeal to many to their detriment down the road.

I recall McDonald’s employees demanding higher wages. They argued the salary wasn’t enough to support their families. The job was never meant for such and was often staffed by teens as their first employment.

McDonald’s response was along these lines. Afterward, they began replacing employees with self-checkout. Our local store once had 8 registers. Now there’s three. Customers may order from a large board or get in line if they prefer.

The technology exists to eliminate a lot of manual labor. I read about a machine that picks apples around the clock. Which would eradicate the need for migrant workers. It picks faster and longer and doesn’t require benefits or housing.

We reside in a knowledge economy now. I’m skeptical about the hike because it plays into their hands. The short-term gain is hiding a long-term problem.

It’s one thing to receive payment from a system you’ve paid into and the benefits are determined by your contribution. And another to be wholly dependent on their favor. They are free to make amendments to the program. Government cuts are a reality. I would never permit myself to be financially beholden in that way.

Nothing is free. There’s always price. The only one who gives gifts without strings is God.

Albion · Jul 9, 2019

Even if statisticians and economists had not reported that jobs will be lost, I would think it obvious that such a raise will force many employers to reduce staff. We already see it in many businesses after much more modest hikes in the minimum wage than this one.

Hank77 · Jul 9, 2019

Gigimo said:
Got an email advertising a yard spinner at Amazon for right around $67-70, found the same one at ebay for $35-37 and on walmart for $40.

Was it the exact same item?

Hank77 · Jul 9, 2019

LaBèlla said:
The technology exists to eliminate a lot of manual labor. I read about a machine that picks apples around the clock. Which would eradicate the need for migrant workers. It picks faster and longer and doesn’t require benefits or housing.

Our friend has three machines that pick fruit but that doesn't eradicate the need for workers to pick what the machines miss and to sort and package. He hires around 40 workers every season.

bèlla · Jul 9, 2019

Hank77 said:
Our friend has three machines that pick fruit but that doesn't eradicate the need for workers to pick what the machines miss and to sort and package. He hires around 40 workers every season.

The key response to your comment is yet.

I can recall the first computers available to the public for sale and video consoles and VCRs. In each instance the technology improved and the devices are a far cry from the original.

The current iteration of the machine misses product. Future ones will be more exact. That’s the way technology works. Its progressive.

Your friend hires 40 now and may need half that amount later and so on.

Hank77 · Jul 9, 2019

LaBèlla said:
I can recall the first computers available to the public for sale and video consoles and VCRs. In each instance the technology improved and the devices are a far cry from the original.

There's a big difference when it comes to harvesting and sorting living things. There is only so much a machine can do.

bèlla · Jul 9, 2019

Hank77 said:
There's a big difference when it comes to harvesting and sorting living things. There is only so much a machine can do.

We’re speaking of two different things. You’re focused on the rudiments and I’m addressing the larger picture.

Whether this results in 10 or 40 hands is immaterial when you consider the reduction in relation to the industry. A task that requires 40 hands with the aid of a machine would demand significantly more without its presence.

Minimizing human capital is the aim as is increasing their profits.

Douger · Jul 9, 2019

LaBèlla said:
The key response to your comment is yet.

I can recall the first computers available to the public for sale and video consoles and VCRs. In each instance the technology improved and the devices are a far cry from the original.

I still remember my first computer. It required a donkey on a turnstyle to power it and could only make simple market predictions and couldn't automate the transactions.
It was advertised as "portable" and to be fair, it came with a cart and the shaft from the turnstyle could be used to hook up the donkey to pull the cart. So it wasn't all bad but still a far cry from what we have today.

Yekcidmij · Jul 9, 2019

mukk_in said:
Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

I think in principle workers should be able to bargain for whatever price they want to sell their labor. Minimum wage laws prevent workers from selling their labor below set prices.

Gigimo · Jul 9, 2019

Yekcidmij said:
I think in principle workers should be able to bargain for whatever price they want to sell their labor. Minimum wage laws prevent workers from selling their labor below set prices.

There is a sub-minimum wage law that has been in effect since the 30s and is still applicable in certain circumstances today.

Gigimo · Jul 9, 2019

Hank77 said:
Was it the exact same item?

Yes

Hank77 · Jul 9, 2019

Gigimo said:
Yes

Shopping around paid off.
I was surprised that Amazon was that much higher except when it was a private seller, I haven't seen that.

Should the minimum wage be hiked?

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