Should the drinking age be changed?

[ebia]

I try to do my part as part of the campaign for real ale.

Good on yer. (Still a life member, but no longer active since moving to the wrong side of the world.)

 

[Maxwell511]

In the UK underage alcohol drinking has been in the news quite a lot. Currently you can only buy alcohol when you are 18. The problem is i think is that pubs and clubs seem to have clamped down on underage drinking recently meaning there seems to be a lot more 15/16 year brats on the streets drinking and causing a nuisance.

If they're going to be drinking anyway why not change the law so that they're not on the streets drinking.

Or should the drinking age go up to 21?

The drinking age should be lowered to 16.

Kids start drinking at 15 and 16, the only way to really stop this is to kill all 15 and 16 year olds. It is just one of those growing up things.

Of course because what these kids are doing is illegal they go off to the fields or the park or the streets to do this. Drinking a hell of alot in an unsupervised manner. Getting so drunk that they are a danger to themselves. Getting in trouble with the police and getting in trouble with the neighbours. Getting into fights and other anti-social behaviour.

Now imagine if their main experience with alcohol when they start drinking it is not out in some field or getting into to some gang fight. Imagine their first experiences with alcohol are down at their local, with their neighbours getting to know them, in a situation where having to much to drink is not judge by their peers but a barman.

Which is better?

Personally I would like the young lads drinking in the local getting to know the lovely widowed Mrs. Murphy when she goes up for a vodka and tonic, than to be drinking in the field beside her house and scaring the bejaysus out of the women.

I dare anyone in Ireland or Britain to deny the social importance of the local pub in getting to know one's neighbours and generating a sense of community spirit. I would ask why are we denying this experience to the ones that we are fearing are becoming very anti-social.

 

[Maxwell511]

The drinking age is fine where it is. What needs to change is the attitude towards alcohol. Until we grow up and stop seeing it as naughty and illicit, people will continue to abuse it. In France, where a lot of children drink watered-down wine with their parents, hardly anybody binge-drinks.

Personally I think the drinking age is not fine and it is because I think "what needs to change is the attitude towards alcohol" alot of the attitudes young adults have to drink are the ones that were formed by their initial experiences of drinking, these are in fields with people with the maturity of a fried egg.

This stuff doesn't happen really in Europe. Their drinking age is 16.

 

[Patashu]

The problem with alcohol is dual-pronged; even ignoring that it hurts the consumer, it can very easily drive the consumer to hurt others (many deaths are caused by alcoholism) but yet is deeply ingrained in culture. Prohibition doesn't work; people just get their alcohol from underground sources. So what can you do? Proper, balanced education on alcohol, listing both its positives and negatives so as not to appear biased or anti-fun, would go towards controlling the damage. Slowly, slowly make the laws on alcohol stricter; gradual so people ease into the changes.

 

[Patashu]

Hmm. Actually, maybe the opposite might work better; increasing proper education on alcohol and all its facets while loosening laws on alcoholism, instead only applying strict laws towards those who act disorderly while drunk.

 

[cantata]

Personally I think the drinking age is not fine and it is because I think "what needs to change is the attitude towards alcohol" alot of the attitudes young adults have to drink are the ones that were formed by their initial experiences of drinking, these are in fields with people with the maturity of a fried egg.

This stuff doesn't happen really in Europe. Their drinking age is 16.

Well, at the moment you can drink at any age (although feeding a two-year-old half a bottle of wine would get you into trouble, obviously). The rules around drinking in public or in a pub are very weird, but you are allowed to drink certain drinks with a meal and with adults from 14. You're not allowed to purchase alcohol until 18, that's true. Perhaps that should be changed so that you are allowed to purchase alcohol in a restaurant or pub from 16, but not in a bar, supermarket, off-licence &c.? I agree that alcohol should have sociable associations rather than bottle-of-White-Lightning-on-the-swings associations

(Europe? We are in Europe, remember? )

 

[TexasSky]

I grew up in the United States at a time when we were in Vietnam, and when drinking was legal at 18.

A lot of people started drinking at younger than 18, which was a shame.

However - I think it is utterly ridiculous to tell someone, "You are old enough for us to shove a gun in your hand, and send you out to kill others or be killed, and old enough to vote for the leaders of your nation, and old enough to marry - but you aren't old enough to drink."

 

[TexasSky]

Well, at the moment you can drink at any age (although feeding a two-year-old half a bottle of wine would get you into trouble, obviously). The rules around drinking in public or in a pub are very weird, but you are allowed to drink certain drinks with a meal and with adults from 14. You're not allowed to purchase alcohol until 18, that's true. Perhaps that should be changed so that you are allowed to purchase alcohol in a restaurant or pub from 16, but not in a bar, supermarket, off-licence &c.? I agree that alcohol should have sociable associations rather than bottle-of-White-Lightning-on-the-swings associations

(Europe? We are in Europe, remember? )

In the United States you'd go to jail for letting a young child drink. In fact, it was in the news that a few people were arrested for that this month. You can also go to jail for helping a minor purchase.

That said, I know many, many, many people who let teenagers toast a special occasion with adults.

 

[TexasSky]

The problem with alcohol is dual-pronged; even ignoring that it hurts the consumer, it can very easily drive the consumer to hurt others (many deaths are caused by alcoholism) but yet is deeply ingrained in culture. Prohibition doesn't work; people just get their alcohol from underground sources. So what can you do? Proper, balanced education on alcohol, listing both its positives and negatives so as not to appear biased or anti-fun, would go towards controlling the damage. Slowly, slowly make the laws on alcohol stricter; gradual so people ease into the changes.

First, let me say that my "total drinking" in the last 2 years had been 1/2 a small glass of wine at New Year's. I'm not a habitual drinker.

So I'm not saying what I am to "defend my right to drink!"

I grew up in a city where alcohol was sold at the super market, and was not a "big deal." Then I moved to a city where alcohol was only allowed in restaurants, and if people wanted to buy it they had to drive outside the city limits to this street full of nothing but liquor stores.

In the city, drinking was not a "right of passage" thing. There were fewer problems with drunk drivers, and there seemed to be fewer teenage drunks. It just wasn't something you did to prove you could.

In the "dry" city, there was some kind of "honor" among young people associated with "stocking the bar". They would drive out to this place, and by the time they got home, be drunk from what they drank in the car.

It was a "big deal". Something they did to show off.

So, I'm not sure all our restrictions are having the affect society wants it to have.

 

[cantata]

In the United States you'd go to jail for letting a young child drink. In fact, it was in the news that a few people were arrested for that this month. You can also go to jail for helping a minor purchase.

That said, I know many, many, many people who let teenagers toast a special occasion with adults.

I do think that's very silly.

I think the healthiest place to learn about alcohol is at home, with responsible adults, at a relatively young age. Toasting special occasions is an excellent example of a good opportunity to associate alcohol with sociable situations and responsible people.

 

[TexasSky]

I do think that's very silly.

I think the healthiest place to learn about alcohol is at home, with responsible adults, at a relatively young age. Toasting special occasions is an excellent example of a good opportunity to associate alcohol with sociable situations and responsible people.

The reason for the law is the danger to the children.

I don't think they would arrest someone for letting a child have a sip of alcohol to toast a special occasion, but to give them an entire drink, they would. The cases in the news were when children were actually drunk, or had enough to cause sickness. That kind of thing.

The reasons they do are mostly health. Children's metabolism, size, etc., makes alochol much more dangerous to them. They can "overdose" on it at much lower levels than an adult can. A child's liver is really very fragile, and while an adult is killing off brain cells that were already formed, a child is killing of cells in a developing brain.

I assume when you talk about teaching your child, you don't fill a sippy with a vodka-and-tonic. The people who get arrested for this are doing that kind of nonsense.

They will, though, arrest any adult caught buying alcohol for minors. As in, if a 16 year old give you money to buy a six-pack for them, and you do it, you go to jail, not the 16 year old. I actually agree with that. I think it is wrong of adults to help children break the law.

 

[Tragic Paradox]

The average 18-21 year old is too stupid to be trusted with an alcoholic beverage. Rather than assuming there is a magic age where one suddenly becomes responsible enough to drink, maybe we should have laws that require parents to teach their kids that getting drunk doesn't make you cool, it makes you a moron, and alcoholism ruins lives, families, and marriages.

Before you type your scathing retort, I have nothing against drinking, per se. So please spare me the "couple drinks at dinner" spill. If you believe you have the discipline and intelligence to know when to stop, then I'll leave the personal conviction/moral issue of drinking to you and mind my own business. I do, however, have a lot against getting drunk and making a fool out of yourself in public, then killing someone on your way home.

The blunt tone of this post is directed at no one in general. I'm just in one of those moods, and I have strong convictions and zero tolerance about this subject.

 

[cantata]

The reason for the law is the danger to the children.

I don't think they would arrest someone for letting a child have a sip of alcohol to toast a special occasion, but to give them an entire drink, they would. The cases in the news were when children were actually drunk, or had enough to cause sickness. That kind of thing.

The reasons they do are mostly health. Children's metabolism, size, etc., makes alochol much more dangerous to them. They can "overdose" on it at much lower levels than an adult can. A child's liver is really very fragile, and while an adult is killing off brain cells that were already formed, a child is killing of cells in a developing brain.

I assume when you talk about teaching your child, you don't fill a sippy with a vodka-and-tonic. The people who get arrested for this are doing that kind of nonsense.

They will, though, arrest any adult caught buying alcohol for minors. As in, if a 16 year old give you money to buy a six-pack for them, and you do it, you go to jail, not the 16 year old. I actually agree with that. I think it is wrong of adults to help children break the law.

Sure, no one's suggesting you get an eight-year-old drunk, but it's quite possible to enjoy half a glass of wine at 13 without any ill-effects. Not letting anyone drink until 21 is ridiculous.

 

[stan1980]

The drinking age should be lowered to 16.

Kids start drinking at 15 and 16, the only way to really stop this is to kill all 15 and 16 year olds. It is just one of those growing up things.

Of course because what these kids are doing is illegal they go off to the fields or the park or the streets to do this. Drinking a hell of alot in an unsupervised manner. Getting so drunk that they are a danger to themselves. Getting in trouble with the police and getting in trouble with the neighbours. Getting into fights and other anti-social behaviour.

Now imagine if their main experience with alcohol when they start drinking it is not out in some field or getting into to some gang fight. Imagine their first experiences with alcohol are down at their local, with their neighbours getting to know them, in a situation where having to much to drink is not judge by their peers but a barman.

Which is better?

Personally I would like the young lads drinking in the local getting to know the lovely widowed Mrs. Murphy when she goes up for a vodka and tonic, than to be drinking in the field beside her house and scaring the bejaysus out of the women.

I dare anyone in Ireland or Britain to deny the social importance of the local pub in getting to know one's neighbours and generating a sense of community spirit. I would ask why are we denying this experience to the ones that we are fearing are becoming very anti-social.

Good post.. in Ireland though, don't they all start drinking at 11 anyway? At least thats when all my Irish cousins seemed to have started.

Perhaps that should be changed so that you are allowed to purchase alcohol in a restaurant or pub from 16, but not in a bar, supermarket, off-licence &c.?

Good idea that

 

[Maxwell511]

The average 18-21 year old is too stupid to be trusted with an alcoholic beverage. Rather than assuming there is a magic age where one suddenly becomes responsible enough to drink, maybe we should have laws that require parents to teach their kids that getting drunk doesn't make you cool, it makes you a moron, and alcoholism ruins lives, families, and marriages.

Where is this magical world that you live in, where teenagers actually listen to their parents and their parents can define for them what is or is not "cool"?

then killing someone on your way home.

The social acceptance of drink driving in the US is actually one of those weird culture shocks I had when I was there a couple of weeks ago. Irish people may like our drink however getting into a car even after a class of wine is enough for you to be considered as bad as Hitler. In the US it seems "sensible" to drive because you are too drunk to walk.

 

[Maxwell511]

Good post.. in Ireland though, don't they all start drinking at 11 anyway? At least thats when all my Irish cousins seemed to have started.

Not really. Alot of people may have had their first drink that young, I had mine at 12, but the next one I had was 3 years later.

Maybe I should have said start drinking regularly at 15/16.

 

[Darkhorse]

I was 19 and living in Texas when the drinking age there was lowered to 18.

Over the next year and a half that I lived in Texas, I made a few trips to liquor stores (in counties where they were allowed) and bought a few six-packs of beer, which I drank little-by-little on special occasions (weekends, etc.). Not too much at any one time, because my parents and other relatives taught me to drink alcohol carefully and responsibly, starting at age 5!

Then I moved to California (drinking age of 21) and waited for 6 months to legally buy alcohol again! That really pointed out the stupidity of the whole "split-level adulthood" concept. I saw enough to conclude that anyone who was a responsible drinker at 21 would have been one at 18, and anyone who was an irresponsible jerk at 18 would also be an irresponsible jerk at 21.

By the way, my state of residence (Virginia) allows parents to serve alcohol to their own kids - within reason, of course. That way the kids might learn how to drink responsibly.

 

[Autumnleaf]

115 would probably be a good minnimum age for alcohol consumption.

 

[TexasSky]

I was 19 and living in Texas when the drinking age there was lowered to 18.

Over the next year and a half that I lived in Texas, I made a few trips to liquor stores (in counties where they were allowed) and bought a few six-packs of beer, which I drank little-by-little on special occasions (weekends, etc.). Not too much at any one time, because my parents and other relatives taught me to drink alcohol carefully and responsibly, starting at age 5!

Then I moved to California (drinking age of 21) and waited for 6 months to legally buy alcohol again! That really pointed out the stupidity of the whole "split-level adulthood" concept. I saw enough to conclude that anyone who was a responsible drinker at 21 would have been one at 18, and anyone who was an irresponsible jerk at 18 would also be an irresponsible jerk at 21.

By the way, my state of residence (Virginia) allows parents to serve alcohol to their own kids - within reason, of course. That way the kids might learn how to drink responsibly.

You and I are old enough to realize they would put a gun in your hands and send you to war, but claim you weren't old enough to decide what you should be drinking.

 

[Majher777]

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