Should religious belief inform public policy?

[Speedwell]

So the dictionary defines my religious beliefs? Awfully arrogant of you.

OK, let's try an example: Should gay marriage be outlawed because it offends a Christian minority of the population?

 

[istodolez]

Pure religion is to care for the poor and to deal with corruption.

"pure religion". Got it.

I am not wholly up on the exegesis of the book of James but that verse in question kind of sounded to me more like a rhetorical "riff" on the concept of "religion". My guess is that the author of James was making more of a point that the best way to worship God was to care for others and that is the essence of "religion". It reads more like that to me. Not like a "Let us establish the definition of the term 'religion'".

I could be wrong. The reason I jumped on your posts was two fold:

1. This thread really only works if we have a common language (in this case "English" and the concept of "Religion" is relatively well established and it is NOT the definition from James). If we wish to use this UNIQUE definition of the term perhaps we could establish that at the beginning of the OP.

2. I am tired of Christians telling me I can't have morality. Now, granted, the thing I didn't appreciate in your statement was that you were no longer using the concept of "Religion" as it is commonly understood. I feel confident is saying your preference of the Jamesian definition is NOT common as a stand-in for the usual word since I have also spent the last 56 years of my life as a native English speaker.

That is the definition in the book of James, that is the Biblical definition.

I will have to disagree here that it is the primary definition in the Bible for "religion". First off, there is no Hebrew word (certainly in the OT) that corresponds to our term "Religion" but it was certainly used in a variety of ways or interpretable via the bible in a number of ways.

So let's consult the Interlinear translation of the book of James (HERE) and see which word the author of James was initially using:

Appears to be θρησκεία (Threskia). The NAS exhaustive concordance translates this, in some ways as "worship".

But here's the full entry for Thayer's Greek Lexicon (I've highlighted some of the key bits):

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2356: θρησκεία

θρησκεία Tdf. θρησκια (see Iota) (a later word; Ionic θρησκιη in Herodotus (2, 18. 37)), θρησκείας, ἡ (from θρησκεύω, and this from θρησκός, which see; hence, apparently primarily fear of the gods); religious worship, especially external, that which consists in ceremonies: hence, in plural θρησκιας ἐπιτελεῖν μυριάς, Herodotus 2, 37; καθιστας ἁγνείας τέ καί θρησκείας καί καθαρμους, Dionysius Halicarnassus 2, 63; universally, religious worship, James 1:26f; with the genitive of the object (Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)) τῶν ἀγγέλων, Colossians 2:18 (τῶν εἰδώλων, Wis. 14:27; τῶν δαιμον´ων, Eusebius, h. e. 6, 41, 2; τῶν θεῶν, ibid. 9, 9, 14; τοῦ Θεοῦ, Herodian, 4, 8, 17 (7 edition, Bekker); often in Josephus (cf. Krebs, Observations, etc., p. 339f); Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 45, 7 [ET]); religious discipline, religion: ἡμετέρα θρησκεία, of Judaism, Acts 26:5 (τήν ἐμήν θρησκειαν καταλιπών, put into the mouth of God by Josephus, Antiquities 8, 11, 1; with the genitive of the subjunctive τῶν Ἰουδαίων, 4 Macc. 5:6, 13 (12); Josephus, Antiquities 12, 5, 4; θρησκεία κοσμικη, i. e. worthy to be embraced by all nations, a world religion, b. j. 4, 5, 2; piety, περί τόν Θεόν, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; κατά τήν ἔμφυτον θρησκειαν τῶν βαρβάρων πρός τό βασιλικόν ὄνομα, Chariton 7, 6, p. 165, 18 edition, Reiske; of the reverence of Antiochus the Pious for the Jewish religion, Josephus, Antiquities 13, 8, 2). Cf. Grimm on 4 Macc. 5:6; (especially Trench, § xlviii.).


Now, obviously James wishes to provide a "definition" of what is Religion that God will approve of. And he frames it rhetorically as caring for the poor. I am extremely doubtful that the entire Greek world looked at this and said "Ya know that guy who wrote the book of James has completely redefined our previously existing word! Let us remove from it all concepts related to religion as we know it!"

I'm not saying the author of James did anything wrong, I'm merely saying that the author of James appears to me to be kind of "writing a sermon" in which playing around with words and making a rhetorical point are valid but do not necessarily change the entire meaning of the word. Certainly not for the rest of the world.

Once again you are projecting your paranoia on others.

I will definitely agree I possibly overreacted because SO MANY Christians have insulted me that way that I lose track.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

So my religious belief, a Christian definition, and one that could reasonably be expected to be shared by other legislators is to fight corruption. So you are saying that a candidate is should not campaign on that issue?

Yes, keep religion out of schools and politics. Preach your religion and rules to your family and friends.

Another religious belief I and other Christians share is to care for widows and orphans. So if we pass a policy that benefits orphans and widows we shouldn't say that? Because something about the church?

That has nothing to do with church. Most liberal I know care about these people. I see this lacking with Conservative Christians, That's why I like the democrat side.

My religious belief, defined by the NT, says nothing about the church. Why would the separation of church and state have anything to do with it? Actually, I see this policy of "separation of church and state" to be part of my religious belief, to fight corruption. Therefore my religious beliefs are written into the constitution.

Like I say . I want no part of religion in politics . They've done enough damage.

 

[istodolez]

So the dictionary defines my religious beliefs?

No, but it defines the word "religion".

Awfully arrogant of you.

Please stop insulting me because you decided you didn't like what I wrote so you make up a different thing and accused me of writing it. That is called "bearing false witness" and it is a bad thing.

 

[ZNP]

OK, let's try an example: Should gay marriage be outlawed because it offends a Christian minority of the population?

Don't know. I would support a democratic rule. I personally am against legalized prostitution, but see that Nevada legalizing it while NY criminalizes it is a constitutional compromise. The constitution says that any rights that are not specifically spelled out to be under Federal jurisdiction should be State's rights. I leave it up to each State to decide. If a person is offended by how their State votes, move.

 

[ZNP]

No, but it defines the word "religion".

The Bible defines my religious belief. I have already stated that my "religious belief" is to help widows and orphans, and to fight corruption. I have also said that these principals inform my decisions, including who I vote for and what policies I support.

Why do you have an issue with that?

 

[Speedwell]

Don't know. I would support a democratic rule. I personally am against legalized prostitution, but see that Nevada legalizing it while NY criminalizes it is a constitutional compromise. The constitution says that any rights that are not specifically spelled out to be under Federal jurisdiction should be State's rights. I leave it up to each State to decide. If a person is offended by how their State votes, move.

It's not that easy. A number of Christians have argued that having to tolerate the presence of gay married couples in the population violates their constitutional right to religious liberty. What is your position on that?

 

[ZNP]

It's not that easy. A number of Christians have argued that having to tolerate the presence of gay married couples in the population violates their constitutional right to religious liberty. What is your position on that?

Same as what I already said.

 

[Caliban]

So the dictionary defines my religious beliefs? Awfully arrogant of you. How very hypocritical of you, on one hand you cry about Christians trying to define your religious beliefs and on the other you impose your definition of religious beliefs on Christians.

The dictionary does not define your religious BELIEFS, it defines the meaning of the word.

 

[ZNP]

The dictionary does not define your religious BELIEFS, it defines the meaning of the word.

You gave this dictionary definition in a previous post:

That is a personal definition inion that is non-standard. I don't agree at all.

When one defines religion in a way that everything becomes religion, they have lost the thread.

Religion Definition:
The definitive Oxford English Dictionary:

Other Dictionaries

Mirian Webster:
1. the service and worship of God or the supernatural
2. commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Cambridge:
the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

I have already said that using this definition the "system of my religious belief" is defined by the Bible, specifically the New Testament. If you use Jesus criteria that there are two laws that the entire religious system hangs on: then the system of my belief is to love God with my whole heart and to love my neighbor as myself.

These two criteria are neatly summarized by James whose definition is not specific to Christians but encompasses all religious beliefs. Caring for widows and orphans exemplifies loving my neighbor as myself, fighting corruption exemplifies my loving God with my whole heart and thus holding all powers that be as being under God's authority.

 

[ZNP]

Anyone who wishes to read the last few pages of this thread will discover that

Caliban has contested my religious beliefs, apparently only the dictionary is allowed to define them, not the Bible. But even the dictionary definition is so broad there is no conflict with using my definition within the extremely broad parameters of that definition.

Istodolez also complains about my religious beliefs because "the thread only works if we all have the same definition".

Caliban wants to ban freedom of speech. You can voice support for a government policy, just so long as you don't quote the Bible. He has no other restriction, you could quote any other author, any other holy book, just can't quote the Bible.

The hypocrisy is off the hook. Istodolez says I am tired of Christians telling me I can't have morality. Yet he is telling me I can't have my religious beliefs. Caliban is fine with me having them so long as I don't say them. But he makes it clear he wants to deal with this one step at a time, so I suppose step one is you can't say it, step 2 is you can't read it, and then step 3 you can't have it.

 

[Caliban]

You gave this dictionary definition in a previous post:

That is a personal definition inion that is non-standard. I don't agree at all.

When one defines religion in a way that everything becomes religion, they have lost the thread.

Religion Definition:
The definitive Oxford English Dictionary:

Other Dictionaries

Mirian Webster:
1. the service and worship of God or the supernatural
2. commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Cambridge:
the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

I have already said that using this definition the "system of my religious belief" is defined by the Bible, specifically the New Testament. If you use Jesus criteria that there are two laws that the entire religious system hangs on: then the system of my belief is to love God with my whole heart and to love my neighbor as myself.

These two criteria are neatly summarized by James whose definition is not specific to Christians but encompasses all religious beliefs. Caring for widows and orphans exemplifies loving my neighbor as myself, fighting corruption exemplifies my loving God with my whole heart and thus holding all powers that be as being under God's authority.

Okay this is nuts--lets settle it. If an atheist believes in helping orphans and widows, and they want to end corruption, do you think that atheist is religious???
Notice it is a yes or no question ?

 

[ZNP]

Okay this is nuts--lets settle it. If an atheist believes in helping orphans and widows, and they want to end corruption, do you think that atheist is religious???
Notice it is a yes or no question ?

I have learned that atheists take exception to Christians defining them. So I will defer to their wishes. Let the Atheist define themselves and I'll define who I am.

 

[Caliban]

I have learned that atheists take exception to Christians defining them. So I will defer to their wishes. Let the Atheist define themselves and I'll define who I am.

You have special permission in this case from this atheist (don't worry I won't tell). Please answer my previous question--be brave:
If an atheist believes in helping orphans and widows, and they want to end corruption, do you think that atheist is religious???
Notice it is a yes or no question ?

 

[ZNP]

You have special permission in this case from this atheist (don't worry I won't tell). Please answer my previous question--be brave:
If an atheist believes in helping orphans and widows, and they want to end corruption, do you think that atheist is religious???
Notice it is a yes or no question ?

Since you have given me special permission this reply only applies to you, not to any others, particularly not to those who have already made it clear they are tired of Christians talking about their morality.

So let's talk about you, there are mixed messages here.

1. You have said here and in a previous post that given this definition of what Pure religion is by James that would make you religious. So I am inclined to say "yes".

But,

2. You have also said clearly in a previous post that although this definition would define you as religious it isn't true because you aren't religious.

So, yes, the definition defines you as religious regardless of how much you hate to admit it.

 

[Caliban]

Since you have given me special permission this reply only applies to you, not to any others, particularly not to those who have already made it clear they are tired of Christians talking about their morality.

So let's talk about you, there are mixed messages here.

1. You have said here and in a previous post that given this definition of what Pure religion is by James that would make you religious. So I am inclined to say "yes".

But,

2. You have also said clearly in a previous post that although this definition would define you as religious it isn't true because you aren't religious.

So, yes, the definition defines you as religious regardless of how much you hate to admit it.

I will leave it to the spectators of this conversation to decide if they also think atheists are religious. I think they are clearly un-religious in most cases. Some might be Buddhists. I don't see how it helps furthering a rational discussion to say everyone is religious. When any term that attempt to define a specific set of characteristics is interpreted to include nearly every human, it losses all of its meaning

Sometimes people will say that the universe is god. Well, under that definition, of course god exists. But you and I know that is rarely what people bean by God. They mean something different and more specific. Defining religion or religious people as those wanting to do good makes the same categorical error.

It helps your argument if I am religious too. But I'm not. Because in this discussion, for religion and the state to remain separate, that would be impossible. First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Your definition of religion would make that sentence unintelligible. Clearly a more standard and specific definition of religion is in mind.

 

[ZNP]

I will leave it to the spectators of this conversation to decide if they also think atheists are religious. I think they are clearly un-religious in most cases. Some might be Buddhists. I don't see how it helps furthering a rational discussion to say everyone is religious. When any term that attempt to define a specific set of characteristics is interpreted to include nearly every human, it losses all of its meaning

On the contrary religion is uniquely human. The incredible thing about humans is that they are all religious, yet we don't see this trait in any other species.

Sometimes people will say that the universe is god. Well, under that definition, of course god exists. But you and I know that is rarely what people bean by God. They mean something different and more specific. Defining religion or religious people as those wanting to do good makes the same categorical error.

It helps your argument if I am religious too. But I'm not. Because in this discussion, for religion and the state to remain separate, that would be impossible. First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Your definition of religion would make that sentence unintelligible. Clearly a more standard and specific definition of religion is in mind.

Oh, if you don't understand just ask. James described "pure religion". Once congress makes a law establishing a religion, making it a "State" religion, it is no longer pure. It has become spotted by the world. This is why James also says that pure religion is "unspotted by the world".

There is no constitutional provision for "religion and state to remain separate". The provision is for the "church and state" to be separate. It would be impossible to make a country whose government is separate from religion, Russia and China have tried, but to no avail. All humans are religious. It is part of who we are. Every society has a history of caring for the widows and orphans, and every society dislikes corruption.

 

[JackRT]

You have special permission in this case from this atheist (don't worry I won't tell). Please answer my previous question--be brave:
If an atheist believes in helping orphans and widows, and they want to end corruption, do you think that atheist is religious???
Notice it is a yes or no question ?

I would say that atheist would be compassionate, altruistic and wise.

 

[Caliban]

All humans are religious.

No--wrong!!! Every continent had religious cultures and practices. That does n to mean every human on the earth is religious. In the modern West--religion is in decline.

 

[istodolez]

The Bible defines my religious belief. I have already stated that my "religious belief" is to help widows and orphans, and to fight corruption. I have also said that these principals inform my decisions, including who I vote for and what policies I support.

Why do you have an issue with that?

Actually I DON"T have an issue with that. So long as I understood that you are using the term "religion" in a way that is VERY narrow and not at all in common usage. Your point is quite nice,actually!

As I CLEARLY explained in my last post I missed your unique definition.