Should I sign?

[BigDaddy4]

Hey everyone. My wife has just emailed me the marital settlement agreement, which comes before the divorce papers (I believe). There's a line in it that states,

"WHEREAS, we were married on xxx date in xx place, and we now mutually desire to dissolve our marriage and mutually agree to live permanently separate and apart from each other, as if we were single."

I promised I wouldn't contest the divorce even though I don't want it. But in the line above, it states, "mutually desire to dissolve our marriage."

How can I respect my wife's desires and not lie on the agreement?

Thoughts?

Such is the language of a no contest / no fault divorce. As others have pointed out, you can contest or she can point out the fault, which would become public record. Or you could not sign, and the divorce will proceed regardless.

Sign or don't sign. It's your choice.

 

[Pastor Glenn]

I know you're broken my friend. No contest is always hurtful. You need to get on your knees about this until you hear from God. Remember, God sees the whole picture and wrote your life's total plan.

With you in prayer

 

[JohnDB]

Since she has adjusted the papers to fulfill your request just sign them and get it over with.

 

[mjmcmillan]

Is there some good that could be accomplished by refusing to sign? If there is a chance that your marriage could be put back together that is one thing. If refusing to sign will only add to the animosity, then sign the papers and be done with it. Divorce causes enough bitterness and to spare without making it worse by being difficult.

 

[technofox]

Is there some good that could be accomplished by refusing to sign? If there is a chance that your marriage could be put back together that is one thing. If refusing to sign will only add to the animosity, then sign the papers and be done with it. Divorce causes enough bitterness and to spare without making it worse by being difficult.

As one who has gone through divorce, this is so true.

 

[Lovely Jar]

I'd hope you would ask, should I seek therapy for my issues?
YES!

To your question, should you sign?
It's not your call.

Your wife can file for divorce, have you served,and if you refuse to sign she ends up granted the divorce because you were a non-respondent.

And why not?
Love doesn't hurt. Love doesn't insult, condemn, belittle, or sling words as if they're weapons. Which they are because they can impact a person deeply and for all time.

Take care of yourself and learn what's making you tick in this way. You're not fit for marriage as you admit when you behave this way.
If you love her and she wants to go, let her go.

Work on you. So that you are someone worth marrying.
And so that you are someone who is safe to be with. Someone who won't express hate and contempt and that you yourself don't want to be with the woman you assault by word of your mouth. Words don't just exist. They have emotions in them and they have visuals backing them.

When you abuse your wife and then say you love her you're proving your love is abusive.

Should a woman tolerate that?

The Power of Words | Marriage Today | Jimmy Evans - YouTube


The Power of Words

Hi everyone,

My wife and I have been separated for 3.5 months and she has the divorce papers in her hand and said she will send them to me this week. Should I sign?

We are both devout believers. There has been no adultery. We were both virgins when we got married. Our first kiss was on our wedding day. We married b/c of our similar calling: to serve God overseas as missionaries. We went overseas and our marriage imploded. I was emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive towards her by making her feel bad about herself, minimizing, controlling her, blame shifting, discounting, etc. When we came back to the states, it didn't get any better because I was not able to understand why I was like that and didn't see the root causes of my behavior. She had left several times before for a few days and one time for 3 weeks, only to come back, hoping for change, but I always reverted back to my past behaviors. She got us to see counselors, but I ended up blaming her for everything and the counselors bought my deception. So after having her emotional reserves completely spend, she said she saw no other way except divorce and our separation started 3.5 months ago.

Since then, I have been completely broken and through revelations and excellent counseling, I have been able to understand myself for the first time and see how my childhood trauma made me so insecure as an adult and through the H.S. found security in Him. It's been life changing. But my wife feels like it's too late and that she's just too badly damaged to give it another shot. Many, many friends have tried to dissuade her but her reply is this: "suppose you have a babysitter molest your kids. You, as a Christian, can forgive them, but will you ever allow that babysitter near your kids again? That's how I feel about my husband." She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce. Mainly...

1 Tim 5:8. "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." Her rationale is that overseas, a few times, I did not get her the proper food and medicine when she needed it because of my neglect. This is true.

Exodus 21:10-11. "If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." Her rationale is that because the slave wife is free to leave when not being taken care of, then the free Jewish woman has equal rights.

Also, she is REALLY into God's justice now. She feels like she has forgiven me too many times without consequences for me and that divorce needs to be a consequence in our situation. She referenced how God allowed David and Bathsheba's baby to die as justice. She also mentioned how God allowed generations of Israelites to die because of His justice. So she feels like she needs to divorce me for justice.

Neither of us are planning to get remarried. I fully believe even if the divorce is finalized, she won't get remarried because Biblical grounds for remarriage is a lot less ambiguous than for divorce and she loves God and the scriptures.

If the divorce is finalized, I will still consider myself to be married to her and will continue to wear my wedding ring. I will continue to pray and hope for restoration, no matter how long it takes as this is a covenant and not a contract. I don't know if I'll be able to continue to do that if she remarries, but I don't think she ever will.

With all that said, should I sign? I feel like divorce is a sin. But one of her primary complaints against me is my disrespect of her, which is true. Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest. But since then, I've studied the scriptures a ton about divorce and feel like it's a sin.


Any ideas?

 

[dw2000]

Not signing isn't about changing the outcome or not, but endorsing something which I believe is wrong. Let's say your daughter wants an abortion. You know she's going to do it whether or not you support her. She may have gotten pregnant because her parents were so neglectful that she ran away and had to find love somewhere else. But she needs your signature to get an abortion. Do you sign? You know she'll go through it anyway through some process whether or not you sign the papers, but do you endorse it? You not signing it will make her bitter against you. But your conscience bothers you.

I know all analogies break down, but that is somewhat how I feel. I know whether or not my signing it won't change the outcome and that's not the purpose.

Is there hope? She has said numerous times, to numerous people, that she will change her mind if God speaks to her. Someone asked her if she would be willing to reconcile even after the divorce in a few years, she said that she can't limit what God can do and if He clearly tells her, then she will reconcile. She has never said to anyone anything to the likes of "I will never back back together with him."

Plus, like I have stated earlier, she does not believe in remarriage and neither do I, especially when there hasn't been adultery or abandonment by a non-believer. During fights, she would often state in exasperation, "I wish one of us would just commit adultery so that we can get divorced." She is still struggling through if divorce is a sin or not, without any input from me. Although it's a very emotional decision, she's struggling through it by doing an exhaustive Bible study, looking into the Greek and Hebrew, etc. Who knows if either of us will change our minds about remarriage in the future after the divorce, but for right now, I know that's what our beliefs are.

 

[dw2000]

I'd hope you would ask, should I seek therapy for my issues?
YES!

Take care of yourself and learn what's making you tick in this way. You're not fit for marriage as you admit when you behave this way.

If you love her and she wants to go, let her go.

Work on you. So that you are someone worth marrying.
And so that you are someone who is safe to be with. Someone who won't express hate and contempt and that you yourself don't want to be with the woman you assault by word of your mouth. Words don't just exist. They have emotions in them and they have visuals backing them.

Hi. Thank you for your reply. I have been seeking therapy... private counselor and two weekly support groups. I have been working on myself and will continue to do so.

We all come into marriages with issues. Who's really fit to be married? Especially men, who are normally emotionally stunted and immature when entering into the marriage. Marriage in itself is a process of sanctification. My wife said to me about marriage before we got married, "Yeah, I believe marriage is good for one thing. It's good for beating the sin out of each other."

You said "If you love her and she wants to go, let her go."

That's popular for dating. But a marriage? I would venture to say that most marriage partners wanted to leave their marriage at one point in time. But a marriage is a commitment, a promise made to the other person irregardless of their behavior.

But with all that said, I don't want to communicate that I'm avoiding responsibility. I am the one that put her into this corner. I am the one who caused my wife, who had the most conservative view of marriage, to be in deep anguish about whether or not it's right to divorce.

 

[bhsmte]

Not signing isn't about changing the outcome or not, but endorsing something which I believe is wrong. Let's say your daughter wants an abortion. You know she's going to do it whether or not you support her. She may have gotten pregnant because her parents were so neglectful that she ran away and had to find love somewhere else. But she needs your signature to get an abortion. Do you sign? You know she'll go through it anyway through some process whether or not you sign the papers, but do you endorse it? You not signing it will make her bitter against you. But your conscience bothers you.

I know all analogies break down, but that is somewhat how I feel. I know whether or not my signing it won't change the outcome and that's not the purpose.

Is there hope? She has said numerous times, to numerous people, that she will change her mind if God speaks to her. Someone asked her if she would be willing to reconcile even after the divorce in a few years, she said that she can't limit what God can do and if He clearly tells her, then she will reconcile. She has never said to anyone anything to the likes of "I will never back back together with him."

Plus, like I have stated earlier, she does not believe in remarriage and neither do I, especially when there hasn't been adultery or abandonment by a non-believer. During fights, she would often state in exasperation, "I wish one of us would just commit adultery so that we can get divorced." She is still struggling through if divorce is a sin or not, without any input from me. Although it's a very emotional decision, she's struggling through it by doing an exhaustive Bible study, looking into the Greek and Hebrew, etc. Who knows if either of us will change our minds about remarriage in the future after the divorce, but for right now, I know that's what our beliefs are.

So you are saying, she doesn't feel the abuse you claim she suffered would justify divorce?

 

[dw2000]

So you are saying, she doesn't feel the abuse you claim she suffered would justify divorce?

Hi. Thanks for the very clear, concise question.

Yes, I do not think abuse justifies divorce. I don't even think adultery justifies divorce. I believe in the permanency of marriage. I know there are several views on marriage...

1 - divorce is ok for adultery or abandonment by the non-believer (probably the majority view in evangelical Christianity)
2 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by non-believer, or physical abuse (held by lots of evangelicals too).
3 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by believer/nonbeliever, or any kind of abuse. This is newer and is gaining traction. This is also the view probably held by the rest of the world.
4 - divorce is never ok unless the marriage was illegitimate in the first place (between homoexuals or incestuous marriages).

A lot of the discussions are heated because of these differing views. Remarriage is a whole different issue. Some people say it's the same thing as divorce. However, I know my wife and I both believe that divorce is not the same thing as validity for remarriage.

I believe in either #1 or #4. I think most everyone here believes in #3. My wife was a #2 and is looking for Biblical support for #3.

Because I believe in either #1 or #4, I believe that it's God that put us together, not the state. And so if our legal status is dissolved, we are still a one flesh relationship.

And I think that's it in a nutshell.

But this does not mean that I am excused from my behavior. I know I need to resolve issues and work on myself, outside of the marriage. I even told my wife after being apart for 1 month, do not take me back right now because my abusive tendencies are still there and I need time to get these deeply entrenched attitudes out of me by the work of the H.S. and prayer.

 

[JohnDB]

I'm thinking de-nile is a river in Egypt.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Yes, I do not think abuse justifies divorce. I don't even think adultery justifies divorce. I believe in the permanency of marriage.

But if you believe it justifies divorce or not only applies to one person... You. Your belief that it does not means nothing when it comes to her choice to file.

Her choice to file and what does and doesn't justify divorce is obviously different.

I know there are several views on marriage...
1 - divorce is ok for adultery or abandonment by the non-believer (probably the majority view in evangelical Christianity)
2 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by non-believer, or physical abuse (held by lots of evangelicals too).
3 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by believer/nonbeliever, or any kind of abuse. This is newer and is gaining traction. This is also the view probably held by the rest of the world.
4 - divorce is never ok unless the marriage was illegitimate in the first place (between homoexuals or incestuous marriages).

You know, I think there are a lot of assumptions here... What certain groups believe, what the world believes, how much of what you think who believes, etc etc. In the end, it just doesn't matter. In this situation, what matters is that you are in a situation where your negative behavior directly contributed to the demise of the marriage that you ex is filing for. Determining the legitimacy of it... It. Doesn't. Matter. She feels she's justified and thus, she's filed.

A lot of the discussions are heated because of these differing views. Remarriage is a whole different issue. Some people say it's the same thing as divorce. However, I know my wife and I both believe that divorce is not the same thing as validity for remarriage.

When I got married, my husband and I said we'd never get a divorce. We couldn't understand what would happen to lead a couple to a point where they'd want to give up on a marriage and we swore up and down that we were forever. 5 years later, as we were getting divorced, we swore up and down we'd never remarry. It wasn't out of loyalty to each other... Neither of us had the energy for marriage and finding it to be a profoundly negative experience, we didn't want to repeat it. Our divorce was fast, painless, and we parted on good terms, though with a clear understanding that neither of us were marriage people.

Eventually, I started dating a close friend who was about to go through a train-wreck of a divorce after ending his train-wreck of a marriage. A marriage filled with everything from financial deceit to physical abuse, mental and emotional manipulation... The whole 9 yards. He swore up and down that he'd never, ever remarry. He had no interest in repeating a divorce and saw nothing positive out of marriage. In fact, our mutual agreement to never get married is a common and early bond we shared... We had an immense amount of comfort in knowing we'd never have to deal with "that issue" with a partner because we were both on the same page. And his ex wife? She swore up and down eternal and heartfelt devotion to the man she was joined with, she pledged to always be there for him, always leave her home open to him, and allow God to bring him back... Because she believed with wild passion and fervency that God would bring him back. He'd regret everything and, poof, there he'd be and life could continue as normal.

My divorce went through late October (years and years and years ago). By November, my ex-husband was dating. By December, he was engaged. By March, he and his fiancee were expecting (after saying during our marriage that he didn't want to be a father but would "maybe" do it if it was important to me). By August, less than a year later, he was remarried. Now he's got his wife, by all accounts they're fantastically happy and in love, they've got three kids, all boys, (and I think one on the way) and one of them is even named with a name that, when I suggested it, I was told was "ugly" and sounded like "a beer" or a "bad actor." And he's a devoted family man and father, even giving up on a long-held dream that he had in our marriage, that led to an insane amount of friction for us, so that he could be always close to his wife and kids.

The friend that I started dating, we were living together by January, very happy and in love, a year after my divorce I found out I was pregnant, in the following June our son was born, and sometime between then and the September after our son was born, we'd both changed our mind on remarriage and he proposed. Less than 48 hours after his divorce came through, we got married.

3 people who swore, up and down, they'd never, ever get married again.

Even his ex, who swore (and still does swear) up and down she'd always be true, would never give up on him, would pray for his return daily... She keeps up that show for an audience (namely, her parents and his parents who give her money to offset the financial pain of my husband's "abandoning" her, and that support would dry up quickly if they thought she was dating), but behind the scenes, she's been in 4 sexual relationships (that we know of) and goes out to the local dives to cruise for guys on the regular.

The point being your belief your ex will not remarry, it rings more of wishful thinking (for you) and the leftover bad taste of an abusive marriage (for her). If she meets somebody, if she wants to pursue a relationship, you better believe she'll go back to the Bible to find the justification to re-marry, and she'll find it. Just like I believe in the light of the current situation, your pledging to be devoted to a woman you clearly think can/will/should come back is reflective of the fact that you think she can/will/should come back. Considering you have no kids, after she gets the divorce one can reasonably expect that you will not see and hear from her ever again, a fact you aren't absorbing. When that happens, the situation has subsided, and you see life goes on without her, we will find that you'll most likely move on.

I believe in either #1 or #4. I think most everyone here believes in #3. My wife was a #2 and is looking for Biblical support for #3.

Because I believe in either #1 or #4, I believe that it's God that put us together, not the state. And so if our legal status is dissolved, we are still a one flesh relationship.

Which you will believe passionately, until the scenario I described above plays out. And the reasons behind the divorce, the abuse and possessiveness, are showing themselves in this symptom of how you interpret your marriage.

But this does not mean that I am excused from my behavior. I know I need to resolve issues and work on myself, outside of the marriage. I even told my wife after being apart for 1 month, do not take me back right now because my abusive tendencies are still there and I need time to get these deeply entrenched attitudes out of me by the work of the H.S. and prayer.

You say this, but you're not asking questions on how to improve yourself... You're seeking council on how you can get her back and if you should let her go because you don't want her to go. I've yet to see you acknowledge that, for her, you left the marriage a long, long time ago through your abuse and she's just making legal the dissolution that occurred because of your violation of your vows.

 

[bhsmte]

Hi. Thanks for the very clear, concise question.

Yes, I do not think abuse justifies divorce. I don't even think adultery justifies divorce. I believe in the permanency of marriage. I know there are several views on marriage...

1 - divorce is ok for adultery or abandonment by the non-believer (probably the majority view in evangelical Christianity)
2 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by non-believer, or physical abuse (held by lots of evangelicals too).
3 - divorce is ok for adultery, abandonment by believer/nonbeliever, or any kind of abuse. This is newer and is gaining traction. This is also the view probably held by the rest of the world.
4 - divorce is never ok unless the marriage was illegitimate in the first place (between homoexuals or incestuous marriages).

A lot of the discussions are heated because of these differing views. Remarriage is a whole different issue. Some people say it's the same thing as divorce. However, I know my wife and I both believe that divorce is not the same thing as validity for remarriage.

I believe in either #1 or #4. I think most everyone here believes in #3. My wife was a #2 and is looking for Biblical support for #3.

Because I believe in either #1 or #4, I believe that it's God that put us together, not the state. And so if our legal status is dissolved, we are still a one flesh relationship.

And I think that's it in a nutshell.

But this does not mean that I am excused from my behavior. I know I need to resolve issues and work on myself, outside of the marriage. I even told my wife after being apart for 1 month, do not take me back right now because my abusive tendencies are still there and I need time to get these deeply entrenched attitudes out of me by the work of the H.S. and prayer.

I was asking more on her view whether the abuse justifies divorce.

 

[DZoolander]

dw200 -

See, here's the thing. If I were your soon-to-be ex-wife - I wouldn't want a reconciliation either. The simple fact of the matter is, at least based upon how you are relaying your actions, I wouldn't trust a thing you said.

Forgive me for getting a little pop-psych here - but it is how I see things.

People are linear in their behaviors. While you may see what appear to be paradigm shifts in what people do...often it's just context and circumstance that changes. The underlying motivation and/or goal doesn't change, however.

It's like when you say "When she left, I told her I wouldn't contest. But now I'm having second thoughts." Well, how could that be? You're portraying it as some sort of monumental shift in attitude - whereas I would see it quite differently.

When she left - you really didn't take her seriously. Telling her you wouldn't contest was a form of demeaning her - and making her feel like she didn't matter. What's the goal there? To keep her around. Keep a dog feeling unworthy enough - it will stick around - right? What better way to keep someone under your control than to make them feel like you're the best option they have...and heck...maybe get them crawling back.

Once you discovered that wasn't the case - what's your next play?

Well, you could be a stinker about the whole thing and play the "God" card by kicking your heels into the sand and refuse to sign (which has the double whammy of both giving you the feeling that your newfound behaviors actually make you more godlier, despite the creep you've been the other 99.9% of your time together)...

Unfortunately, though, that runs the real possibility in this circumstance of driving her away even further...because you can't compel someone to stay married to you. So, with the goal being to keep her around - that one might not work.

So, the other option would be to grant her the divorce, begrudgingly while attesting change. This option at least has the benefit of making her potentially question whether or not she's made the right decision...which under the circumstance is probably your best bet to achieving that goal...of keeping her around.

So, no. I wouldn't see all of these behaviors and wonder "Why's he doing that?" Once you get down to what you're trying to accomplish, all of your behaviors make perfect sense when framed with your goal in mind.

...and that's the rub.

If you've been a creep the whole time you've been together, and it's evident that your goals haven't really changed...rather...it's only your behaviors in service to those goals...why would anyone look seriously at that or give it a second thought?

All of this quibbling you make about how the primary reason you won't sign is because you simply, ethically, cannot support saying that you "endorse or approve" of this dissolution of marriage just reeks of selective ethics and hypocrisy.

It's not hard to be a decent human being. It's not hard to treat your spouse with compassion. Every time you open your fat trap - you've got a choice of whether or not to say the garbage that's going through your head. If you truly were a man of ethics, maybe you'd have tempered what came out of your mouth a little more than you did. If you truly were a man of ethics, maybe you'd have censored the nonsense that apparently freely flowed from your mouth a little better.

The fact you could go over 6 years without giving that kind of stuff a second thought, but now 8(ish) weeks when faced with something you don't want...conveniently find THAT sentence to be more than you can take...once again...just reeks of actions based in nothing but service to selfish self interest.

Someone earlier said something along the lines of "You should try to make yourself someone worth being married to"...and I absolutely agree. You know all that stuff you read about how "love is never selfish", "love isn't this...love isn't that"...blah blah...take that to heart.

Don't change your behaviors...change your goals. Once you really sit down and think about what you're trying to achieve, and change that, then the behaviors will follow suit. Stop thinking about "I don't want to lose her" or "I don't want divorce"...but rather think about "I don't want to be someone that a wife would want to divorce" - and what's entailed in that.

A husband that truly acts like he values and loves his wife is such a person. Learn to desire that - and maybe you'll find the appropriate behaviors along the way.

Just my .02

 

[dw2000]

dw200 -


It's like when you say "When she left, I told her I wouldn't contest. But now I'm having second thoughts." Well, how could that be? You're portraying it as some sort of monumental shift in attitude - whereas I would see it quite differently.

When she left - you really didn't take her seriously. Telling her you wouldn't contest was a form of demeaning her - and making her feel like she didn't matter. What's the goal there? To keep her around. Keep a dog feeling unworthy enough - it will stick around - right? What better way to keep someone under your control than to make them feel like you're the best option they have...and heck...maybe get them crawling back.


Unfortunately, though, that runs the real possibility in this circumstance of driving her away even further...because you can't compel someone to stay married to you. So, with the goal being to keep her around - that one might not work.

So, no. I wouldn't see all of these behaviors and wonder "Why's he doing that?" Once you get down to what you're trying to accomplish, all of your behaviors make perfect sense when framed with your goal in mind.

...and that's the rub.

If you've been a creep the whole time you've been together, and it's evident that your goals haven't really changed...rather...it's only your behaviors in service to those goals...why would anyone look seriously at that or give it a second thought?

All of this quibbling you make about how the primary reason you won't sign is because you simply, ethically, cannot support saying that you "endorse or approve" of this dissolution of marriage just reeks of selective ethics and hypocrisy.

Don't change your behaviors...change your goals. Once you really sit down and think about what you're trying to achieve, and change that, then the behaviors will follow suit. Stop thinking about "I don't want to lose her" or "I don't want divorce"...but rather think about "I don't want to be someone that a wife would want to divorce" - and what's entailed in that.

Hi Zoolander. Thank you for you well thought and polite reply. You're accurate on some fronts. I do want her back. I am weighing which options are the best for us to get back together.

But I didn't say I wouldn't contest the divorce out of demeaning her or not taking her seriously. Our relationship has a negative dynamic of when we have a fight, I get scared, want it to be over with, my wife is a very loud fighter, and eventually I give in to an ultimatum or a request without thinking about it. This has happened dozens of times and it's led to a completely breakdown in trust because she knows I'll agree to do whatever to get out of trouble.

Since then, I've studied the scriptures and prayed about it a lot, and that has led me to this place. If I had done that before, then I definitely would've told her that I would not endorse a divorce.

And I understand about the rub. What's the goal? I understand how it drives our actions. I'm trying to get my goal to become more like Christ, but it's hard to make that my singular goal. Of course I want my marriage to be restored to a healthy place.

 

[dw2000]

But if you believe it justifies divorce or not only applies to one person... You. Your belief that it does not means nothing when it comes to her choice to file.

Her choice to file and what does and doesn't justify divorce is obviously different.



You know, I think there are a lot of assumptions here... What certain groups believe, what the world believes, how much of what you think who believes, etc etc. In the end, it just doesn't matter. In this situation, what matters is that you are in a situation where your negative behavior directly contributed to the demise of the marriage that you ex is filing for. Determining the legitimacy of it... It. Doesn't. Matter. She feels she's justified and thus, she's filed.



When I got married, my husband and I said we'd never get a divorce. We couldn't understand what would happen to lead a couple to a point where they'd want to give up on a marriage and we swore up and down that we were forever. 5 years later, as we were getting divorced, we swore up and down we'd never remarry. It wasn't out of loyalty to each other... Neither of us had the energy for marriage and finding it to be a profoundly negative experience, we didn't want to repeat it. Our divorce was fast, painless, and we parted on good terms, though with a clear understanding that neither of us were marriage people.

Eventually, I started dating a close friend who was about to go through a train-wreck of a divorce after ending his train-wreck of a marriage. A marriage filled with everything from financial deceit to physical abuse, mental and emotional manipulation... The whole 9 yards. He swore up and down that he'd never, ever remarry. He had no interest in repeating a divorce and saw nothing positive out of marriage. In fact, our mutual agreement to never get married is a common and early bond we shared... We had an immense amount of comfort in knowing we'd never have to deal with "that issue" with a partner because we were both on the same page. And his ex wife? She swore up and down eternal and heartfelt devotion to the man she was joined with, she pledged to always be there for him, always leave her home open to him, and allow God to bring him back... Because she believed with wild passion and fervency that God would bring him back. He'd regret everything and, poof, there he'd be and life could continue as normal.

My divorce went through late October (years and years and years ago). By November, my ex-husband was dating. By December, he was engaged. By March, he and his fiancee were expecting (after saying during our marriage that he didn't want to be a father but would "maybe" do it if it was important to me). By August, less than a year later, he was remarried. Now he's got his wife, by all accounts they're fantastically happy and in love, they've got three kids, all boys, (and I think one on the way) and one of them is even named with a name that, when I suggested it, I was told was "ugly" and sounded like "a beer" or a "bad actor." And he's a devoted family man and father, even giving up on a long-held dream that he had in our marriage, that led to an insane amount of friction for us, so that he could be always close to his wife and kids.

The friend that I started dating, we were living together by January, very happy and in love, a year after my divorce I found out I was pregnant, in the following June our son was born, and sometime between then and the September after our son was born, we'd both changed our mind on remarriage and he proposed. Less than 48 hours after his divorce came through, we got married.

3 people who swore, up and down, they'd never, ever get married again.

Even his ex, who swore (and still does swear) up and down she'd always be true, would never give up on him, would pray for his return daily... She keeps up that show for an audience (namely, her parents and his parents who give her money to offset the financial pain of my husband's "abandoning" her, and that support would dry up quickly if they thought she was dating), but behind the scenes, she's been in 4 sexual relationships (that we know of) and goes out to the local dives to cruise for guys on the regular.

The point being your belief your ex will not remarry, it rings more of wishful thinking (for you) and the leftover bad taste of an abusive marriage (for her). If she meets somebody, if she wants to pursue a relationship, you better believe she'll go back to the Bible to find the justification to re-marry, and she'll find it. Just like I believe in the light of the current situation, your pledging to be devoted to a woman you clearly think can/will/should come back is reflective of the fact that you think she can/will/should come back. Considering you have no kids, after she gets the divorce one can reasonably expect that you will not see and hear from her ever again, a fact you aren't absorbing. When that happens, the situation has subsided, and you see life goes on without her, we will find that you'll most likely move on.



Which you will believe passionately, until the scenario I described above plays out. And the reasons behind the divorce, the abuse and possessiveness, are showing themselves in this symptom of how you interpret your marriage.



You say this, but you're not asking questions on how to improve yourself... You're seeking council on how you can get her back and if you should let her go because you don't want her to go. I've yet to see you acknowledge that, for her, you left the marriage a long, long time ago through your abuse and she's just making legal the dissolution that occurred because of your violation of your vows.

Hi Tropical Winds. Thank you for sharing your story. I know that whatever our sayings and convictions are today, tomorrow, when circumstances change, our convictions can change with it.

But if we really study and pray about our convictions today, then could that cement our convictions for the future, no matter what circumstances come our way?

Be with me a little here... I know it may be difficult because you've moved on. But be with me...

Suppose after your divorce, your former husband peacefully let you go, worked on himself, and prayed for restoration of the 1st marriage. He didn't even entertain dating. He didn't cause any shananigans, but merely prayed for himself and restoration of the marriage. You knew that. You knew he was praying for restoration but that he wasn't doing any manipulation of any kind whatsoever. And it happens that you're not dating or interesting in remarrying. This goes on for several years. Could your heart then have been changed to consider reconcilation?

 

[DZoolander]

Hi Zoolander. Thank you for you well thought and polite reply. You're accurate on some fronts. I do want her back. I am weighing which options are the best for us to get back together.

But I didn't say I wouldn't contest the divorce out of demeaning her or not taking her seriously. Our relationship has a negative dynamic of when we have a fight, I get scared, want it to be over with, my wife is a very loud fighter, and eventually I give in to an ultimatum or a request without thinking about it. This has happened dozens of times and it's led to a completely breakdown in trust because she knows I'll agree to do whatever to get out of trouble.

Since then, I've studied the scriptures and prayed about it a lot, and that has led me to this place. If I had done that before, then I definitely would've told her that I would not endorse a divorce.

And I understand about the rub. What's the goal? I understand how it drives our actions. I'm trying to get my goal to become more like Christ, but it's hard to make that my singular goal. Of course I want my marriage to be restored to a healthy place.

I'm of the mindset of improvement through smaller goals. I wouldn't ever try to set some sort of standard of "become more like Christ" - because I think that unattainable goals often serve as excuses for bad behavior.

Rather - I'd set more achievable goals...like...don't be a jerk. Every situation you find yourself in presents itself with a number of options. Just don't pick the jerky one. Doing that - over time - I think will become habit...and will yield far greater results that some nebulous "I want to be more like Christ" (with all it's facets) type of goal.

Ya know?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

But if we really study and pray about our convictions today, then could that cement our convictions for the future, no matter what circumstances come our way?

Maybe. But overwhelmingly, probably not. As circumstances and life change, so will how you've pledge to approach it. The chances are overwhelmingly high that whatever you've decided for yourself today will not be the same as what you've decided for yourself a year, two years, five years, ten years from now. It's all well and good to say that you won't move on because you believe she's coming back and because you believe she won't remarry. In a year, after you realize she isn't, or in 5 years, when she's remarried with 2 kids, here's guessing your conviction will change. You'll go back to the Bible, find the passages that talk about how adultery allows divorce and remarriage, and you'll be on your way.

Be with me a little here... I know it may be difficult because you've moved on. But be with me...

Suppose after your divorce, your former husband peacefully let you go, worked on himself, and prayed for restoration of the 1st marriage. He didn't even entertain dating. He didn't cause any shananigans, but merely prayed for himself and restoration of the marriage. You knew that. You knew he was praying for restoration but that he wasn't doing any manipulation of any kind whatsoever. And it happens that you're not dating or interesting in remarrying. This goes on for several years. Could your heart then have been changed to consider reconcilation?

Nope. Not even slightly. If I thought I'd want to be with him, if I thought he could change and this was a bad spell, I wouldn't have gotten a divorce. I would not even consider, regardless of how much he's purported to have changed, remarry a man I divorced because of abuse.

And before you say well she's moved on and she doesn't get it... I dated a guy, I really thought I loved him, but he was clingy, he was possessive, he went from first date to forever in about 15 minutes... It was a total turnoff and after several months, I gave him the boot. He was devastated, swore he'd change, etc etc. I ran into him several years later and he'd totally changed, professional, seemed like he'd grown up. He asked if I wanted to go on a date, I said no. Why? Because if I dumped you once, there was a reason. I was over him, us, the idea of us, and the rest of it. I had no desire to rehash the past again.

The thing is, there are a lot of caveats to your story...

We're assuming you're peacefully letting her go, something you're debating. We're assuming you're working on yourself, jury is still out on that. We're assuming you can change when reintroduced the same dynamic again, seems doubtful. Didn't cause any shananigans... Again, you're still debating that. Praying for the restoration of the marriage, we know it's happening, but it's passive and done with an air of manipulation and emotional guilt/blackmail. That voids out the manipulation part as well. You're assuming years from now, you'll still be in contact. With no kids, it's unlikely.

And, big one here, you're banking on her not dating or being interested in remarrying. If she is, then all bets are off. And that huuuuuuge variable is completely out of your control, and it's an unrealistic to expect she won't want to date or remarry, much less stay single so as to accommodate the possibility that you may change enough that she wants to give the marriage another go.

And more importantly... If she's saying she won't date and has no interest in remarrying, why do you think that statement doesn't include you? Why does it mean she's not interested in dating or marrying anybody else, but she would date and remarry you, the person she decided she wanted to divorce?

So, again... No, no, no, no, and no.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The other big assumption is that in that time, you'd want her back.

Now, before you go with the "she's my wife, will always love her, devote my life to her, joined by God," etc etc that I know is coming, the idea that you'd always want her back and would never want life without her seems more real to you than the opposite. But I tell you what, at some point, there's a great, big, huge chance that may be different. For all we know 10 years from now maybe she'll want to come back, but you, after years of trying with nothing, have moved on and don't want her back.

What I'm saying is buying furniture and planning how you'll arrange it in a house you don't live in is not a great idea. Focus on getting better, correcting the behavior, and let the rest play out. Spend less time plotting on how you can mold yourself into whatever it is that gets her back in the marriage.

 

[ValleyGal]

TW has a lot of good points, and I just want to add to the one about moving on. My first husband ran away from home. We sort of stayed on good terms, and we even went to the courthouse together to file for divorce. But after 18 months of separation (not long before the divorce was supposed to finalize), he came back wanting to reconcile. He had dated another woman and found her lacking in comparison, so he realized how good he had it with me. Thing is, I took him back for no other reason that this was my marriage and I needed to try because I did not believe in divorce. It lasted for two weeks before I told him it was not going to work. We had grown so far apart, in different directions, and neither of us was willing to get back onto the same page. For me, that would have been jeopardizing my son, and my relationship with God. So I told him that I wanted the divorce to go through.

The Bible talks about the fact that two become one. That oneness is not a one-time deal. Oneness is a process of becoming. Otherwise, the word would be the two are one. But instead they become one. That is what happens when two people with goodwill and genuine love do when they are married.

But when the two are not living under the same roof being married and working on their marriage, daily expressing their love and friendship between them, they are not in that process of becoming one. They are in the process of "self" (not meaning selfishness, but as in clarity of self identity rather than marital identity). After enough time of this passes, becoming one again is not typically desirable for one or the other.

I do believe short term, planned, deliberate, and moderated separation is an option in some cases, but yours is not one of them. If your wife ever wanted to reconcile, a divorce would not be an option, as divorce severs that option. How many relationships (especially marriages) are successful after breaking up and getting back together? None I know of....

However, if that hope for reconciliation and wearing your wedding ring are what you need to see you through, then do it...you will take it off when you are ready, and eventually you will stop hoping, and eventually although it hurts to let it go, you will likely not even want her back. I know right now that is hard to imagine. And although it's hard to imagine, it is still the truth, and those who care about you will offer to speak truth to you - gently.