Should Confederate statues be removed?

jgarden

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Should Confederate statues be removed?

Many of the Civil War statues in the South were erected in the 1890's and early 20thC as part of systematic racism known as "Jim Crow" - they represented a highly visible reminder to "black America" that "white segregationists" were back in control!

Today's statues could be relocated to Civil War battlefields and cemeteries as historical artefacts, and where they would no longer serve as a daily reminder glorifying those who fought to maintain a society where one race was subjugated to serve another!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Traitors? Before the Civil War, people thought of the US as a union of independent nations, like the EU. The people who fought for Virginia were being patriots to Virginia. You can call them many things, but certainly not traitors.

That's not true. Before the American civil war the United States was a singular nation, the states were not sovereign; we had attempted something like that very early in our history under the Articles of Confederation but it was a total failure of an experiment and so the Articles were tossed and the US Constitution was drafted and fully ratified in 1789. What is true is that in the antebellum era there were different views and perspectives in the relationship between State governments and the Federal government.

Yes, those who ceded from the country and fought against the US were traitors of their country. That one man's patriot is another man's traitor may be all well and good, after all, the American founders and all the colonists who fought for their independence against Britain were traitors against the British Crown. Had America lost its war for independence it'd be a bit strange to have statues of Washington, Jefferson, et al; traitors. So the complex forces of history determines whether one is a patriot or a traitor--but the fact remains that the "heros" of the Confederacy were traitors against the US, and their cause was unjust and immoral.

And in spite of claims to the contrary, the primary cause of the Civil War wasn't something as nebulous as "state rights", the cause of the American civil war was the issue of slavery. This is evidenced by the Declaration of Secession, and the words themselves of the leaders of the Confederacy.

"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation." - from the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

To suggest, as many do, it was merely "states rights" fails entirely to understand that the very particular "right" which these states were interested in was their "right" to own other human beings.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." - Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, Cornerstone Speech, 1861

Is, frankly, the nail in the coffin here.

These are statues which glorify traitors whose unjust and immoral cause was the institution of perpetual slavery for men and women of African descent, statues which were erected and installed not during the time of the Confederacy, or shortly thereafter in the post-bellum period, but during periods of civil rights advocacy in the early 20th century and during the Civil Rights era of the 1960's; the whole point of these monuments was to terrorize black Americans. That was their purpose. These statues were erected intentionally, not to honor the Confederacy as such, or even these particular historical figures as such, but as symbols of terror against an oppressed people so that they "knew their place".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Should Washington DC should be renamed because George owned slaves?

Is anyone arguing that statues should removed because the people owned slaves or weren't perfect? Or are people arguing that statues that were intentionally erected to terrorize African-Americans during Jim Crow and in opposition to Civil Rights.

Perhaps understand the argument before trying to provide a counter-argument.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Galaxy Hunter

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Is anyone arguing that statues should removed because the people owned slaves or weren't perfect? Or are people arguing that statues that were intentionally erected to terrorize African-Americans during Jim Crow and in opposition to Civil Rights.

Perhaps understand the argument before trying to provide a counter-argument.

-CryptoLutheran
Counter-argument? What are you talking about. It wouldn't bother me if the statues came down. I'm just explaining how human nature works. Transgender rights weren't an issue until gay marriage was legalized. That's because they knew they could only win one battle at a time. It was human nature to move on to the next issue. Once the statues are down the next battle will begin and that might involve renaming things. Don't assume I'm on anybody's side just because I understand human nature.
 
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pat34lee

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That's not true. Before the American civil war the United States was a singular nation, the states were not sovereign; we had attempted something like that very early in our history under the Articles of Confederation but it was a total failure of an experiment and so the Articles were tossed and the US Constitution was drafted and fully ratified in 1789. What is true is that in the antebellum era there were different views and perspectives in the relationship between State governments and the Federal government.

-CryptoLutheran

You not only do not know the history involved in the
Civil War, you judge another time and culture by the
standards of today. Save your indignity for cultures
who still have slavery today, not to mention atrocities
of all types.
 
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pat34lee

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Is anyone arguing that statues should removed because the people owned slaves or weren't perfect? Or are people arguing that statues that were intentionally erected to terrorize African-Americans during Jim Crow and in opposition to Civil Rights.

Perhaps understand the argument before trying to provide a counter-argument.

-CryptoLutheran

You know this won't stop if they get the Confederate
statues removed or relocated. Next will be anyone
who owned slaves or advocated for slavery. Then will
come the personal attacks left and right. Who wasn't
patriot enough? Who was not PC?

Eventually the only statues permitted will be homosexual
Native Americans.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You not only do not know the history involved in the
Civil War.

Which part have I failed to understand, the part where South Caroline said slavery was the issue for why they were seceding from the Union, or the part where Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy, declared the Confederacy to be built upon the "truth" that black people are inferior to white people and the proper place of black people is to be subservient to white people?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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You know this won't stop if they get the Confederate
statues removed or relocated. Next will be anyone
who owned slaves or advocated for slavery. Then will
come the personal attacks left and right. Who wasn't
patriot enough? Who was not PC?

Eventually the only statues permitted will be homosexual
Native Americans.

Or perhaps our end goal is to exterminate all humans beings, I for one will welcome our new mole people overlords.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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pat34lee

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Which part have I failed to understand, the part where South Caroline said slavery was the issue for why they were seceding from the Union, or the part where Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy, declared the Confederacy to be built upon the "truth" that black people are inferior to white people and the proper place of black people is to be subservient to white people?

-CryptoLutheran

You need to learn a few quotes from Lincoln,
the great emancipator himself.

“I would save the Union. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”

"I will say then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality..."


And the great northern general, Ulysses S. Grant:
"U.S. Grant had several slaves who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated that “Good help is so hard to come by these days."
 
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pat34lee

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In my opinion, they were an important part in America history and shouldn't be removed. We should remember our mistakes in the past, a lot of people died in the war as well and there some people who were anti-slavery who fought for the confederate. Trust me, it starts like this, and then they will start removing statues for George Washington and other historical figures for being "racist" for some random reason.

Either way, forcefully removing a statue is no way to do it.
 
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