Should christians stand up for themselves?

[dms1972]

Did St Paul ever stand up for his rights as a citizen? I think there is scriptural grounds to say that he did. But I also believe he wasn't doing so in an egoistic manner. He was using his citizenship to advance the Gospel. He appealed on one occasion to Caesar (the secular authority of those days). Of course one had to have a very good reason for making such an appeal. This is documented for us in the Book of Acts (Chapter 25). But can we apply the example of Paul's appeal more widely, or is it only relevant in circumstances surrounding Paul's ministry? I believe at that time God in His Providence was directing events in St Paul's life, and that he wanted Paul to explain himself and his conversion to further the advance of the Gospel.

How should we think about these things today? On what grounds scripturally and in what situations are christians permitted to stand up for themselves? Under what circumstances is one allowed to file a complaint for instance?

How should we act if we are ever wrongfully accused? How far should we go to have the matter set straight?

How do we avoid taking matters into our own hands and is one permitted to seek redress through compensation agencies - eg. if wrongfully dismissed?

My guess is the Holy Spirit must rule in each situation, and guide.

But are there any general scriptural principles for guidance in this area?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

In the case of persecution for our faith, I am convicted that we should defend ourselves with words. Specifically, the Word of God.

 

[zippy2006]

In this case you should love yourself as your neighbor. You should stand up for yourself for the same reason and to the same extent that you would stand up for another person.

For example, it is wrong to blackmail and so if you see someone being blackmailed you should stand up for them. Similarly, if you find yourself being blackmailed, you should stand up for yourself.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Did St Paul ever stand up for his rights as a citizen? I think there is scriptural grounds to say that he did. But I also believe he wasn't doing so in an egoistic manner. He was using his citizenship to advance the Gospel. He appealed on one occasion to Caesar (the secular authority of those days). Of course one had to have a very good reason for making such an appeal. This is documented for us in the Book of Acts (Chapter 25). But can we apply the example of Paul's appeal more widely, or is it only relevant in circumstances surrounding Paul's ministry? I believe at that time God in His Providence was directing events in St Paul's life, and that he wanted Paul to explain himself and his conversion to further the advance of the Gospel.

How should we think about these things today? On what grounds scripturally and in what situations are christians permitted to stand up for themselves? Under what circumstances is one allowed to file a complaint for instance?

How should we act if we are ever wrongfully accused? How far should we go to have the matter set straight?

How do we avoid taking matters into our own hands and is one permitted to seek redress through compensation agencies - eg. if wrongfully dismissed?

My guess is the Holy Spirit must rule in each situation, and guide.

But are there any general scriptural principles for guidance in this area?

There is a place for defense of the founding principles of one's nation, and likewise, for defense of rights, particularly those of one's family, neighbors and brethren. Yeah, self gets involved in that.

A tangent comment on the New Testament, concerning the claim that the Church operated as its own governing body: If the church can do so, it is still under the authority of whatever country it is in. For example, the Vatican has no authority over the lives and rights of people (even Catholics) in America, though they may try to suppress or ignore crimes by Catholics or against Catholics. Particularly, under the US Constitution 1st Amendment, in the US no religious entity is to be allowed to do so. Some things, of course, such as some disputes, can be handled by the entity, but CRIME against the laws of the state or country are to be prosecuted by the state or country.

 

[dms1972]

In this case you should love yourself as your neighbor. You should stand up for yourself for the same reason and to the same extent that you would stand up for another person.

For example, it is wrong to blackmail and so if you see someone being blackmailed you should stand up for them. Similarly, if you find yourself being blackmailed, you should stand up for yourself.

By means of proper channels, reporting the incident? The issue of blackmail wasn't one in my mind when posting - and I would guess that can be a complex matter - on the one hand one has to be extremely careful not to make any premature accusation of blackmail toward anyone. Malicious gossip (unpleasant as it, with its potentially toxic effects) may not necessarily be blackmail for instance. One has to sometimes consider other possible explanations first? I think then that what is going on may become apparent or it may be defused (prevented from advancing) if individuals are approached in good faith, and with some other discerning people present. I would think any such situation needs bathed in prayer first.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Did St Paul ever stand up for his rights as a citizen? I think there is scriptural grounds to say that he did. But I also believe he wasn't doing so in an egoistic manner. He was using his citizenship to advance the Gospel. He appealed on one occasion to Caesar (the secular authority of those days). Of course one had to have a very good reason for making such an appeal. This is documented for us in the Book of Acts (Chapter 25). But can we apply the example of Paul's appeal more widely, or is it only relevant in circumstances surrounding Paul's ministry? I believe at that time God in His Providence was directing events in St Paul's life, and that he wanted Paul to explain himself and his conversion to further the advance of the Gospel.

How should we think about these things today? On what grounds scripturally and in what situations are christians permitted to stand up for themselves? Under what circumstances is one allowed to file a complaint for instance?

How should we act if we are ever wrongfully accused? How far should we go to have the matter set straight?

How do we avoid taking matters into our own hands and is one permitted to seek redress through compensation agencies - eg. if wrongfully dismissed?

My guess is the Holy Spirit must rule in each situation, and guide.

But are there any general scriptural principles for guidance in this area?

Yes.. when it came to Paul being arrested he multiple times drew benefit of his Roman citizenry..

As far as how we are to use our own "Roman" citizenry, it depends on the circumstances truly.

When under persecution, we can use our citizenry to our benefit, and we can argue our case as citizens and Christians.

The Bible is clear that believers shouldn't be taking one another to secular courts in matters where there is dispute..

As far as with non-believers I would think that would be more unclear, it's better to forgive than to sue I think, and shows Christian love, but that might not be appropriate in every case. I would pray on the matter if it ever comes up, but I'd never engage in any sort of frivolous legal action.

For me personally living in the U.S. all my life I've never sued anyone, for anything... so I really don't think legitimate cases would come up very often to even consider. My name was added twice without my prior knowledge to legal actions where there was a mass payout ruled to be paid by the courts, but I never got much out of either anyway, and I never asked for my name to be included in either event.

So yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I do think we can vote ect. but I also believe our faith should be far more important - Paul wasn't a Roman activist fighting for better rights, therefore, I'm not planning on doing any sign waiving.

 

[Hank77]

For example, it is wrong to blackmail and so if you see someone being blackmailed you should stand up for them. Similarly, if you find yourself being blackmailed, you should stand up for yourself.

and likewise...
If someone is accused of blackmail and you know they are innocent you should defend them. If you are accused of blackmail and you are innocent you should defend yourself.
In fact, if you don't defend yourself the world will assume that a Christian committed a crime that dishonors the Lord and His gospel message.

 

[Hank77]

The Bible is clear that believers shouldn't be taking one another to secular courts in matters where there is dispute..

As far as with non-believers I would think that would be more unclear, it's better to forgive than to sue I think, and shows Christian love, but that might not be appropriate in every case. I would pray on the matter if it ever comes up, but I'd never engage in any sort of frivolous legal action.

Agree.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Did St Paul ever stand up for his rights as a citizen? I think there is scriptural grounds to say that he did. But I also believe he wasn't doing so in an egoistic manner. He was using his citizenship to advance the Gospel. He appealed on one occasion to Caesar (the secular authority of those days). Of course one had to have a very good reason for making such an appeal. This is documented for us in the Book of Acts (Chapter 25). But can we apply the example of Paul's appeal more widely, or is it only relevant in circumstances surrounding Paul's ministry? I believe at that time God in His Providence was directing events in St Paul's life, and that he wanted Paul to explain himself and his conversion to further the advance of the Gospel.

How should we think about these things today? On what grounds scripturally and in what situations are christians permitted to stand up for themselves? Under what circumstances is one allowed to file a complaint for instance?

How should we act if we are ever wrongfully accused? How far should we go to have the matter set straight?

How do we avoid taking matters into our own hands and is one permitted to seek redress through compensation agencies - eg. if wrongfully dismissed?

My guess is the Holy Spirit must rule in each situation, and guide.

But are there any general scriptural principles for guidance in this area?

Turning the other face cheek while trusting God, causes a lot of damage. The whole society could be levelled over night if Christians actually did it.

Might be part of why we're taught to pray for those who despitefully use us.

 

[Blade]

Not like we use to. Some use to speak out praise GOD.. not sure if every one of those were right or wrong yet.. we knew someone was taking a stand for the Gospel. Today... don't see them in the news that much. Seen some Catholic preachers speaking up,.. though I disagree on some things they believe.. they spoke up PRAISE GOD!

 

[dms1972]

Yes.. when it came to Paul being arrested he multiple times drew benefit of his Roman citizenry..

As far as how we are to use our own "Roman" citizenry, it depends on the circumstances truly.

When under persecution, we can use our citizenry to our benefit, and we can argue our case as citizens and Christians.

The Bible is clear that believers shouldn't be taking one another to secular courts in matters where there is dispute..

As far as with non-believers I would think that would be more unclear, it's better to forgive than to sue I think, and shows Christian love, but that might not be appropriate in every case. I would pray on the matter if it ever comes up, but I'd never engage in any sort of frivolous legal action.

For me personally living in the U.S. all my life I've never sued anyone, for anything... so I really don't think legitimate cases would come up very often to even consider. My name was added twice without my prior knowledge to legal actions where there was a mass payout ruled to be paid by the courts, but I never got much out of either anyway, and I never asked for my name to be included in either event.

So yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I do think we can vote ect. but I also believe our faith should be far more important - Paul wasn't a Roman activist fighting for better rights, therefore, I'm not planning on doing any sign waiving.

Years ago there was a man I thought I had been unkind to, I thought I would try and be of help to him in some way, but back then he was asking me to do stuff on a computer in my work at the time that was in the bosses office, and I couldn't use without permission. I could not tell quite tell what was going on or why I felt it difficult to tell him "No". I began to feel confused about what was going on. I even spoke for this man to the police and said "I thought he was mostly harmless" (as I didn't have any sure knowledge about him) and this angered the police for some reason. It all got quite complicated and was costly for me mentally. Many years later he came to live near me - and he again brought up some vague bit of business or claim he needed help with and could he use my computer. I consented - the matter was done over an online chat room - but it seemed legit to me - some web address he'd been given. I believe he got money out of that, a few thousand - I don't know what it was all about. I honestly admit I don't like the man very much (despite my attempts to be helpful to him), and have not seen him for some years and don't care if I never see him again. While he lived near me (in the same apt. block) I asked the Lord to bless him, I told him he could knock on my door, which he did several times after he'd been out drinking. Each time I adopted a more or less Buddhist stance of "loving-kindness", I nevertheless stood my ground in that I wasn't going to be manipulated. He'd cuss me a time or two, and I'd wish him good night. Occasionally I had him in, but he was a bit of a self-pitying soul. Also it was hard to know sometimes whether he was being a bit cunning. He was sometimes intoxicated and gasping for more drink. Anyway I opened my door to him a number of times - after that I said to God he's in Your Hands and the care of other people, there is only so much I can do.

 

[dms1972]

Turning the other face cheek while trusting God, causes a lot of damage. The whole society could be levelled over night if Christians actually did it.

Might be part of why we're taught to pray for those who despitefully use us.

Thats ok, (and read my earlier post) but at some point, especially if you are dealing with someone who might be an evil person (ie not just a foolish individual, or ordinary 'sinner') you have to be able to excommunicate them from your life, I believe that is compatible with still praying for them - but in the case of the man I mentioned above (while not "evil" to my knowledge) - at times when I prayed I came under awful confusion and sometime felt I was losing my mind. Please explain that to me? It became that I could quickly ask God to bless him occasionally, and I left it at that, any attempt to pray for him beyond that only brought me into terrible confusion.

 

[dms1972]

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[SkyWriting]

Did St Paul ever stand up for his rights as a citizen? I think there is scriptural grounds to say that he did. But I also believe he wasn't doing so in an egoistic manner. He was using his citizenship to advance the Gospel. He appealed on one occasion to Caesar (the secular authority of those days). Of course one had to have a very good reason for making such an appeal. This is documented for us in the Book of Acts (Chapter 25). But can we apply the example of Paul's appeal more widely, or is it only relevant in circumstances surrounding Paul's ministry? I believe at that time God in His Providence was directing events in St Paul's life, and that he wanted Paul to explain himself and his conversion to further the advance of the Gospel.

How should we think about these things today? On what grounds scripturally and in what situations are christians permitted to stand up for themselves? Under what circumstances is one allowed to file a complaint for instance?

How should we act if we are ever wrongfully accused? How far should we go to have the matter set straight?

How do we avoid taking matters into our own hands and is one permitted to seek redress through compensation agencies - eg. if wrongfully dismissed?

My guess is the Holy Spirit must rule in each situation, and guide.

But are there any general scriptural principles for guidance in this area?

Yes there are. Local Law is God's will on earth.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.


Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thats ok, (and read my earlier post) but at some point, especially if you are dealing with someone who might be an evil person (ie not just a foolish individual, or ordinary 'sinner') you have to be able to excommunicate them from your life, I believe that is compatible with still praying for them - but in the case of the man I mentioned above (while not "evil" to my knowledge) - at times when I prayed I came under awful confusion and sometime felt I was losing my mind. Please explain that to me? It became that I could quickly ask God to bless him occasionally, and I left it at that, any attempt to pray for him beyond that only brought me into terrible confusion.

If you feel confused while praying for someone, check your aim. If you're asking up, it's prayer. If you asking in the direction of the person, it's telepathy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you feel confused while praying for someone, check your aim. If you're asking up, it's prayer. If you asking in the direction of the person, it's telepathy.

Agreed. Sometimes I wonder when people say, "Sending prayers", or even "Sending prayers your way", and the like.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Agreed. Sometimes I wonder when people say, "Sending prayers", or even "Sending prayers your way", and the like.

I tend to wonder when people try to change my thoughts through prayers, it's pretty obvious when it happens.

The main difference between when it's God and it's humans, is the sin (God doesn't have any). It tends to manifest as intrusive thoughts. Found a good remedy for it though, so hopefully that will mature in a good direction.

 

[dms1972]

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[dms1972]

If you feel confused while praying for someone, check your aim. If you're asking up, it's prayer. If you asking in the direction of the person, it's telepathy.

Thanks that is helpful - its a while ago but I probably had not got my "vertical up-link" to God, properly established. I had wondered at the time was this person in some way thwarting my prayers.

It is easy sometimes to get into a sort of pseudo praying using pious phrases picked up here and there. Or to be overly focused on a problem or person.

Thanks good prayer tip. Actually I could do with going back to level one of the school of prayer again.

 

[dms1972]

I tend to wonder when people try to change my thoughts through prayers, it's pretty obvious when it happens.

The main difference between when it's God and it's humans, is the sin (God doesn't have any). It tends to manifest as intrusive thoughts. Found a good remedy for it though, so hopefully that will mature in a good direction.

I sometime ask God to protect me from carnal, or soulish influences whether they be from misguided christian praying, or something else, but even more so I need to be careful I am not praying in a carnal manner myself.