Should an ex-Christian be able to explain why?

Not me said:

Since, as you say truth does not exist. I was wondering just how you balance your checkbook. You told me it was easy. So if you would, please tell me how you do so, not using truth.

in Christ, Not me

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I use math.

gaara4158 said:

I use math.

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I'll bet that works pretty good.

Oooops got lost in translation.

~Anastasia~ said:

Well ... for what it's worth, intellectual and/or philosophical pursuit of God has not proven profitable for anyone I know personally.

To be honest, even if you "prove" to yourself by logic or philosophy that God exists, that still isn't faith. Even the demons believe, and they have personal experience of God - and it does nothing to "save" them.

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I wonder how much this has to do with Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism as paths towards faith? I pay attention to figures in both traditions, and there's definitely a real focus in certain parts of Catholicism on intellectualism as itself a vehicle of faith--I've seen Thomists say that they've had "mystical" experiences where an argument that didn't make sense to them before suddenly clicked.

Besides that, I do agree with you. Intellectualism is definitely a double edged sword for me, since I can get very obsessed with the rational side of things--sometimes to the point of agnosticism--and end up at the point where I have no faith whatsoever in anything that I don't think has a compelling argument behind it. Which is more a point of pride than anything else and obviously really bad.

But there are reasons I'm an Orthodox rather than a Catholic Inquirer. Reasons that don't seem to apply to those Neo-Scholastic types who can handle that side of things without thinking themselves into knots.

gaara4158 said:

I use math.

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If as you say, truth does not exist, how can you know your doing your math correctly?

in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

If as you say, truth does not exist, how can you know your doing your math correctly?

in Christ, Not me

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How do you know if you are doing math correctly?

Not me said:

If as you say, truth does not exist, how can you know your doing your math correctly?

in Christ, Not me

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Math is demonstrable. “Truth does not exist by itself” is not the same as “Nothing is true.”

bhsmte said:

How do you know if you are doing math correctly?

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I believe truth exist, so for me it's easy. Question is, how do you, seeing how for you, truth does not exist.

in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

I believe truth exist, so for me it's easy. Question is, how do you, seeing how for you, truth does not exist.

in Christ, Not me

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Does not answer the question.

Silmarien said:

I wonder how much this has to do with Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism as paths towards faith? I pay attention to figures in both traditions, and there's definitely a real focus in certain parts of Catholicism on intellectualism as itself a vehicle of faith--I've seen Thomists say that they've had "mystical" experiences where an argument that didn't make sense to them before suddenly clicked.

Besides that, I do agree with you. Intellectualism is definitely a double edged sword for me, since I can get very obsessed with the rational side of things--sometimes to the point of agnosticism--and end up at the point where I have no faith whatsoever in anything that I don't think has a compelling argument behind it. Which is more a point of pride than anything else and obviously really bad.

But there are reasons I'm an Orthodox rather than a Catholic Inquirer. Reasons that don't seem to apply to those Neo-Scholastic types who can handle that side of things without thinking themselves into knots.

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I'm no expert, but from what I've seen (if you know Church history) ... after Catholics went their own way from the rest of the Church, they did change their approach to become very scholastic and intellectual. Those tendencies have largely been inherited by Protestants in many ways. I wonder if it has contributed to the modern idea that "faith" really consists of mental gymnastics and making yourself believe something. It's SO far from the way the east approaches the faith though. But on the other hand, Greek philosophy had its influence on the early Church. But largely, the Church (at least Orthodoxy) is suspicious of philosophical approaches to the faith. We recognize that any "Truth" so discovered risks being nothing more than the construct of man's thoughts and imaginations.

To be honest, I've had something of an intellectual approach to much of life. Part of my background is in the sciences, and especially in critical examinations of scientific method. So "proof" has a pretty high standard to me.

Faith is something apart from that - it really needs to be. Just as art, or music, or love are not things best apprehended by the intellect. A solely intellectual approach can be a way of building a wall between our mind and any of these things, allowing us to consider aspects of them, perhaps, but not to EXPERIENCE them. And you are right that intellect is often connected with pride. At least in the circles I came from, it was the prize, so reason for pride. One more obstacle in that being the SOLE approach to faith.

But as I said, we are rational creatures, and God doesn't expect us to abandon that. But it is not the full extent of our ability either - and not even the most important aspect of us as persons.


Perhaps these things are the reason why God has been merciful to deal with me as He has. If I had relied solely on intellect (and there would have been that temptation for me), I might have been able to construct that wall to keep Him out. But given my life, it would be just about as reasonable for me to try to deny the existence of my mother. I've even done the exercise (possibly a foolish one) of intellectually examining what I DO know, to see if I could be wrong. The most conservative conclusion I can reach is that I could be wrong about many of the particulars - but I can't possibly deny that SOMEONE is there, and that they are capable of knowing things and making things happen. Given everything, Christianity is by far the most reasonable explanation to me.

Ah, sorry for going off on a tangent. My point is partly that I'm susceptible to such things too. And I'm still learning to be Orthodox, lol. But yes, I think you are right that this is a large point of difference between Catholics and Orthodox - ultimately between west and east.

God be with you in your seeking.

Not me said:

Good, you believe truth does exist. So the next question would be does righteousness exist?
(but I do believe we have come full circle)

In Christ, Not me

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ow dear

bhsmte said:

Does not answer the question.

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Yes it does.

in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

Yes it does.

in Christ, Not me

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Ok, you can think it does if you want.

gaara4158 said:

Math is demonstrable. “Truth does not exist by itself” is not the same as “Nothing is true.”

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Nobody said that "truth does not exist by itself". I have stated that truth does exist, I believe something is true. And that would be truth.

in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

Nobody said that "truth does not exist by itself". I have stated that truth does exist, I believe something is true. And that would be truth.

in Christ, Not me

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The truth is true? Did you just make that up?

Now, demonstrate what is true.

bhsmte said:

Ok, you can think it does if you want.

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Thank you, and you can believe it doesn't if you want. You will never have to stand before me and give account of yourself. There is one you will have to stand before, but it's not me.

Much love in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

Thank you, and you can believe it doesn't if you want. You will never have to stand before me and give account of yourself. There is one you will have to stand before, but it's not me.

Much love in Christ, Not me

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Who will I have to stand before?

bhsmte said:

The truth is true? Did you just make that up?

Now, demonstrate what is true.

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No, I quite sure someone who loves truth said it before me.

Ok, I will once again. We will start with the question(s).

Does righteousness exist, and if it does, what is it?

in Christ, Not me

bhsmte said:

Who will I have to stand before?

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God.

in Christ, Not me

Not me said:

God.

in Christ, Not me

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What God?