Should an ex-Christian be able to explain why?

[Tinker Grey]

The issue is wether or not you believe truth exists. If a person is truthful in their utterances then truth exists.

If a person is tall, then tallness exists? Categories are constructs of the mind.

 

[Not me]

Ok, lets take that little convincer and break it down. With physical life one cannot be born then unborn, or can they...they can cease to exist, meaning they are no longer there, just as though they were unborn. But even that is beside my point, they are two different things, and though we can't go back into the womb, that would be physically impossible, it is physically possible to throw our salvation away by not being obedient. So pleas don't let your analogy there make it seem impossible, that just some little trick the one we call Satan likes to use on you, but you can buy it if you like...always up to the individual.

Generally the only people that buy that we can do as we like after salvation, is the ones that prefer to do what they like, and not what God says they must do.

See, what you are saying is we can work iniquity and remain saved when you know perfecly well what Christ said to those who did not do his/Gods will.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mathew 7:23

And on this



Of course they wouldn't, but they became not one of them and left them. You just have it somehow in your mind that they never were one of them when that is not what the scripture says, only what false teachers tell you (the ones that want you to misunderstand. It's kin to your "They never were saved to begin with" comeback that does not and never did hold water.

But this is off topic here, besides, it has been debated to death so find those debates if you like, or start your own thread, and I'll be happy to comment.

By their fruits shall you know them.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Chriliman]

If a person is tall, then tallness exists? Categories are constructs of the mind.

I agree categories are constructs of the mind, but this doesn’t mean they don’t exist. If anything, they exist in the mind.

 

[gaara4158]

The issue is wether or not you believe truth exists. If a person is truthful in their utterances then truth exists.

A true utterance exists. The concept of truth existing on its own is incoherent. If this is difficult to grasp, think of it this way. Does maybe exist? Of course not. Maybe is a thing you say when you’re not sure if a statement reflects reality accurately or not. It’s exactly the same with truth. Truth is how you describe a statement that accurately represents reality.

 

[cloudyday2]

2. I am the same way only that I believe very strongly that reality is not what it seems. "Hallucination" is not an explanation, it is a statement. An explanation explains why something happened, "hallucination" doesn't explain why it happened, it is a statement that it didn't happen. If God created you, and a spiritual world exists that you should be informed of then it stands to reason that God would create in you a way to comprehend that spiritual world. Our consciousness is oriented toward physical comprehension, and so to comprehend a spiritual phenomenon it must inject itself into our consciousness in a physical way. For example lets say a spirit is in front of you. Your eyes are incapable of seeing a ghost, however if it is important for you to be aware that there is a ghost in front of you then you will see a ghost in your vision inside your consciousness. We do not see with the tip of our eyes, we see from inside our conscious. So I would not discount your experiences unless they have an explanation, which "hallucination" is not. Additionally you should believe a personal experience unless you have a sufficient defeater for that experience. Otherwise one can suffer an infinite regress of doubt.

I've been thinking about your post since I read it. Disbelief in paranormal and explaining my odd experiences as psychosis seems to be a coping strategy for me. I read the first chapter of "Surviving Death" by Leslie Kean last night, and it caused a lot of anxiety. There was nothing overtly scary in that chapter, but the whole concept of paranormal disturbs me at some deep level that I can't express. And those feelings turn into depression when I realize I have no answers. It isn't that I'm afraid of pointy-eared boogie-men but more a feeling of helplessness in the face of uncertainty about what is real and what is not real. I have experienced some very bizarre things (even if they were hallucinations). At the time these things were happening I usually reacted stoically and without any fear or emotion (aside from being momentarily stunned sometimes). But I think those experiences left wounds that haven't healed entirely yet (although I have made a lot of progress IMO) ... This is probably part of why I tend to be an atheist. (I'm going to have to throw away that book "Surviving Death" LOL.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A true utterance exists. The concept of truth existing on its own is incoherent. If this is difficult to grasp, think of it this way. Does maybe exist? Of course not. Maybe is a thing you say when you’re not sure if a statement reflects reality accurately or not. It’s exactly the same with truth. Truth is how you describe a statement that accurately represents reality.

To a limited degree, I'm in accordance with your basic definition of 'Truth.' But, while a truth claim or truth statement can be said to express some accurate notion about some aspect of the world, I don't think that Truth, with a Capital 'T,' is what we end up with. If anything--and taking a tiny queue from Hegel--our singular statements are "truth bits," with a little 't.' The reason for this, I think, is that more matter how accurate a single, human statement may be, that from a human point of view, more can always be said. For example, if I say, "2PhiloVoid is getting dressed," that is a truth statement. It is true, and it is a part of the Reality of which we all partake. It is a small part of reality; yet there is always more that can be said in relation to this, such as:

1) Void is getting dressed.

2) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church.

3) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter.

4) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife.

5) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st.

6) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st, somewhere in the Milky Way Galaxy.

7) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st, somewhere in the Milky Way Galaxy, because Jesus is Lord and Savior and due Void's focus, attention, respect, devotion and love.

And so on, and so forth, Ad Infinitum.

 

[gaara4158]

To a limited degree, I'm in accordance with your basic definition of 'Truth.' But, while a truth claim or truth statement can be said to express some accurate notion about some aspect of the world, I don't think that Truth, with a Capital 'T,' is what we end up with. If anything--and taking a tiny queue from Hegel--our singular statements are "truth bits," with a little 't.' The reason for this, I think, is that more matter how accurate a single, human statement may be, that from a human point of view, more can always be said. For example, if I say, "2PhiloVoid is getting dressed," that is a truth statement. It is true, and it is a part of the Reality of which we all partake. It is a small part of reality; yet there is always more that can be said in relation to this, such as:

1) Void is getting dressed.

2) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church.

3) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter.

4) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife.

5) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st.

6) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st, somewhere in the Milky Way Galaxy.

7) Void is getting dressed so he may attend Church for Easter with his wife on April 1st, somewhere in the Milky Way Galaxy, because Jesus is Lord and Savior and due Void's focus, attention, respect, devotion and love.

And so on, and so forth, Ad Infinitum.

Yes, I agree. The only reason I went to such great lengths in explaining the function of the word “truth” was to avoid Not Me’s inane “God is Truth” word game. Happy Easter!

 

[Sanoy]

I've been thinking about your post since I read it. Disbelief in paranormal and explaining my odd experiences as psychosis seems to be a coping strategy for me. I read the first chapter of "Surviving Death" by Leslie Kean last night, and it caused a lot of anxiety. There was nothing overtly scary in that chapter, but the whole concept of paranormal disturbs me at some deep level that I can't express. And those feelings turn into depression when I realize I have no answers. It isn't that I'm afraid of pointy-eared boogie-men but more a feeling of helplessness in the face of uncertainty about what is real and what is not real. I have experienced some very bizarre things (even if they were hallucinations). At the time these things were happening I usually reacted stoically and without any fear or emotion (aside from being momentarily stunned sometimes). But I think those experiences left wounds that haven't healed entirely yet (although I have made a lot of progress IMO) ... This is probably part of why I tend to be an atheist. (I'm going to have to throw away that book "Surviving Death" LOL.)

I am the same way, it happens a lot and leaves me with a deep depression, coupled with feelings of isolation, and uselessness. It's hard, sometimes I have to just sedate my rationality and tell myself none of it happened, just to cope. How does one live in two world's at once? I am still struggling to answer that. Despite how much I hate my situation I still force myself to act through the things I know. If I don't who else will, is what I tell myself. Just as much as I wish there were someone out there that had it all understood that could guide us I imagine there are others like me wishing the same thing and I have to help with what little I can. That's how I get through without throwing the burdens of what I have experienced on the ground and forgetting it. It's no less painful, but there are people out there in so much pain because they are not normal and normal people in pain from things they cannot see.

I met a person who confused her ability to sense an emotionally bad future event with causing the event itself. Because she had the feeling her Dad would not return that night and he died, she thought she caused it... and every other negative event since. People are in so much pain out there. Sometimes the ability to see past the curtain and understand it bit can help another person, even if it never gets better for the one looking. That is the only way I know of to make the weight worth bearing.

 

[Silmarien]

Yes, I agree. The only reason I went to such great lengths in explaining the function of the word “truth” was to avoid Not Me’s inane “God is Truth” word game. Happy Easter!

I wouldn't really consider it inane. In a theological context, the Greek definition of truth is probably more applicable: αλήθεια (aletheia), the state of not being hidden, the state of being evident. Factuality. Reality. "Truth" is not a property of a statement; whether or not a statement is true depends on whether or not it refers to any given truth about reality.

Not to get too aggressively Neoplatonic, but if God exists, God is the underlying nature of existence, the ultimate reality which every contingent thing has as its source. If truth refers to the way things are, then God as the ultimate expression of the way things really are, is the actual object of any independent search for truth.

I'm not sure how righteousness would play into this, but a fair amount of popular theology out there really is just mashed up versions of Platonism. What's going on isn't a word game; it's an alternative philosophical system that's become very alien to the modernist mindset. (Though admittedly a lot of people aren't self-conscious of what the system they're operating under really looks like, and then things get strange.)

 

[MoneyGuy]

An ex-Christian should be able to explain why, but shouldn't have to.

 

[Silmarien]

If anything--and taking a tiny queue from Hegel--our singular statements are "truth bits," with a little 't.'

No no no no no, this is a HEGEL-FREE zone. Like gun-free, except MUCH more important.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, I agree. The only reason I went to such great lengths in explaining the function of the word “truth” was to avoid Not Me’s inane “God is Truth” word game. Happy Easter!

A lot of the way in which individual people conceptualize "truth" will depend upon various factors. Like, whether you're Pontius Pilate, or not.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No no no no no, this is a HEGEL-FREE zone. Like gun-free, except MUCH more important.

Don't worry, Sil. I'm only standing in line with others to hear about some of Hegel's thoughts. I'm not about to actually take a full-blown CUE from Hegel. Rather, just a tiny queue.

 

[Silmarien]

Don't worry, Sil. I'm only standing in line with others to hear about some of Hegel's thoughts. I'm not about to actually take a full-blown CUE from Hegel. Rather, just a tiny queue.

No cues! No queues! No Qs! Are we clear!?

 

[Kenny'sID]

By their fruits shall you know them.

Much love in Christ, Not me

IOW, you don't want to reply to may post?

Thanks just the same.

 

[cloudyday2]

I am the same way, it happens a lot and leaves me with a deep depression, coupled with feelings of isolation, and uselessness. It's hard, sometimes I have to just sedate my rationality and tell myself none of it happened, just to cope. How does one live in two world's at once? I am still struggling to answer that. Despite how much I hate my situation I still force myself to act through the things I know. If I don't who else will, is what I tell myself. Just as much as I wish there were someone out there that had it all understood that could guide us I imagine there are others like me wishing the same thing and I have to help with what little I can. That's how I get through without throwing the burdens of what I have experienced on the ground and forgetting it. It's no less painful, but there are people out there in so much pain because they are not normal and normal people in pain from things they cannot see.

I met a person who confused her ability to sense an emotionally bad future event with causing the event itself. Because she had the feeling her Dad would not return that night and he died, she thought she caused it... and every other negative event since. People are in so much pain out there. Sometimes the ability to see past the curtain and understand it bit can help another person, even if it never gets better for the one looking. That is the only way I know of to make the weight worth bearing.

Thanks, I appreciate knowing that other people have similar experiences and reactions. Basically, my hands start to shake and I have other signs of anxiety whenever I lower my barriers to think. I feel that way now.

I can relate to the person who worried about somehow causing her father's death. I have sometimes worried that I caused my father to get cancer. There was a time when I was alone, but I just became so upset and started focusing and visualizing hate towards my father. The reason was just a silly thing - I could smell him eating breakfast in another room. But it felt at the time like something happened at the climax of my hate, and I immediately snapped-out of it and thought "oops". And then a few months later he was diagnosed with cancer, and I sort of wondered if I had caused that. Hopefully not. I have apologized to my father for feeling such hatred even if it went no further than my own brain.

 

[Abraxos]

No. I’m making a very important semantic distinction. If you can’t see it after several pages of my explaining it, that’s on you. I’m not doing it again.

Still no. You are assessing truth through a "truth statement" that truth doesn't exist, which is by and large self-refuting. You can't say "Truth is a property of a proposition, not an actual thing that exists" and then hold that statement as truth as that is logically incoherent. It is like saying, "2+2=4 but 2+2≠4," it doesn't logically follow our cognitive understandings we ascribed words to.

It doesn't matter how many pages are needed to explain your position because semantics doesn't deal with "higher truths." But if you want to adhere to classical logic, you should concede the point that your statement was indeed self-refuting, alter it, and move on. You can disagree with @Not me, but insisting that his perception of truth doesn't exist would also apply to your own statement, because after all, your statement is just another abstract that cannot be measured through tangible means like the height of a person, etc.

 

[gaara4158]

Still no. You are assessing truth through a "truth statement" that truth doesn't exist, which is by and large self-refuting. You can't say "Truth is a property of a proposition, not an actual thing that exists" and then hold that statement as truth as that is logically incoherent. It is like saying, "2+2=4 but 2+2≠4," it doesn't logically follow our cognitive understandings we ascribed words to.

It doesn't matter how many pages are needed to explain your position because semantics doesn't deal with "higher truths." But if you want to adhere to classical logic, you should concede the point that your statement was indeed self-refuting, alter it, and move on. You can disagree with @Not me, but insisting that his perception of truth doesn't exist would also apply to your own statement, because after all, your statement is just another abstract that cannot be measured through tangible means like the height of a person, etc.

No. You’re still not recognizing the difference between truth as a concrete facet of the universe and truth as a property that can only be applied to propositions. It’s fine if you say truth exists as an abstract concept, but I suspect that’s not how Not Me was using the word. It’s the difference between a noun and an adjective, and he was trying to switch between the two to reach the conclusion that God exists as Truth, or something like that. I was preventing that by making the distinction I did. You can’t produce “Truth,” you can only produce a true proposition. If by “truth” all you mean is “a true proposition” then of course truth exists. But that’s not what I was disputing.

 

[Sanoy]

Thanks, I appreciate knowing that other people have similar experiences and reactions. Basically, my hands start to shake and I have other signs of anxiety whenever I lower my barriers to think. I feel that way now.

I can relate to the person who worried about somehow causing her father's death. I have sometimes worried that I caused my father to get cancer. There was a time when I was alone, but I just became so upset and started focusing and visualizing hate towards my father. The reason was just a silly thing - I could smell him eating breakfast in another room. But it felt at the time like something happened at the climax of my hate, and I immediately snapped-out of it and thought "oops". And then a few months later he was diagnosed with cancer, and I sort of wondered if I had caused that. Hopefully not. I have apologized to my father for feeling such hatred even if it went no further than my own brain.

I think sometimes when we focus on something hard enough it becomes more than 3d. For example, if you focus on a quarter, you can almost imagine your finger gliding across the eagle and feeling the bumps of the wings even though you're not touching it. 3d becomes 4d, like you can feel it too. With people I think the dimensions can get really complex and you feel like you are there, rather than in the next room. Each creak of the chair, each clink of the fork, each thud of a glass. All the missing parts of the story you can't see just kind of flood in and take form like you are seeing it happen. Then it starts to feel like you are actually in proximity to what you are focusing on, as if you could just reach out and touch it. That might have been the point where you experienced.

 

[Abraxos]

No. You’re still not recognizing the difference between truth as a concrete facet of the universe and truth as a property that can only be applied to propositions. It’s fine if you say truth exists as an abstract concept, but I suspect that’s not how Not Me was using the word. It’s the difference between a noun and an adjective, and he was trying to switch between the two to reach the conclusion that God exists as Truth, or something like that. I was preventing that by making the distinction I did. You can’t produce “Truth,” you can only produce a true proposition. If by “truth” all you mean is “a true proposition” then of course truth exists. But that’s not what I was disputing.

I am well aware of necessary truths and contingent truths, but whether or not there was an ulterior motive is irrelevant. You were trying to counteract through faulty logic which I was pointing out to you.

It would indeed be fine to alter your statement to say truth exists as an abstract concept, and I think that perhaps would be a sensible approach as it would certainly provide some leeway to one that is cautious of absolutes in the realms of Truth.