Should a person worry if...

[ZiSunka]

Should a person worry about their salvation if they commit adultery not just once, but for many years after they get saved?

Suppose a man I know has an affair for many years, and it continues after he makes a profession of faith, is baptized and regularly attends church. But he doesn't think it is wrong for him to sleep with the other woman and to have a deep relationship with her. Is this man a "sinning saint" or is he just an unsaved sinner? Should he worry that his soul isn't as secure as he thinks it is?

 

[Iollain]

That would be a very confused, unsaved sinner. imo If he does not recognize sooner or later that he has to repent, i would be worried about his salvation.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Should a person worry about their salvation if they commit adultery not just once, but for many years after they get saved?

Suppose a man I know has an affair for many years, and it continues after he makes a profession of faith, is baptized and regularly attends church. But he doesn't think it is wrong for him to sleep with the other woman and to have a deep relationship with her. Is this man a "sinning saint" or is he just an unsaved sinner? Should he worry that his soul isn't as secure as he thinks it is?

I'm not sure what his spiritual state is, but I believe this is exactly the situation that Jesus says are moments for the body of believers to intervene and lovingly rebuke and possibly separate from.

NASB - Matthew 18:15-20

If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.

NASB - Luke 17:1-4

He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, `I repent,' forgive him."

 

[Matthan]

Pleasures of the flesh are difficult to give up. This individual apparently has made his own choice regarding those pleasures verses his relationship with God. We all know that God will forgive us for virtually all sins we might commit. But, we must also love God and want to follow the narrow pathway He has set before us. If we repeatedly stray from that path towards our own pleasures of the flesh, what can we expect Him to do for us?

I believe the answer to that question is obvious....

Matthan <J>< (Festina Lente)

 

[jenptcfan]

Would we question someone's salvation if their habitual sin was gossip instead of adultery?

What about being excessively judgemental? Hypocritical?

I fear that we elevate the sexual sins far above all the others consequence-wise.

As far as I can tell, it could be a sinning saint or someone who was never saved, but thought he was. We cannot be the judge of that. We can only try to nudge him in the right direction and pray for him.

 

[ZiSunka]

Would we question someone's salvation if their habitual sin was gossip instead of adultery?

What about being excessively judgemental? Hypocritical?

I fear that we elevate the sexual sins far above all the others consequence-wise.

As far as I can tell, it could be a sinning saint or someone who was never saved, but thought he was. We cannot be the judge of that. We can only try to nudge him in the right direction and pray for him.

Trouble is, he says he has done the research and since Christ didn't condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, it is no longer a sin that leads to death, so he's not worried. He also says that his wife knows about the other woman and has consented to their relationship, so he isn't even sinning against her. So since adultery isn't a sin, he is still secure in his relationship with God, according to him.

 

[eldermike]

We tend to look at issues using our timing. In a precieved perfect Christian world, people get saved and then "bam" they become just like us. The price of sin was so high that Jesus had to die on a cross to pay it. The price of sin was paid but the cost is still accumulating. Because someone can verbally justify sin means nothing, sin is a trap and adding a lie on top is nothing.

If the conviction of sin is there, then in God's timing, not ours, a heart will be broken and a new one will be installed.

Keep praying.

 

[jenptcfan]

Trouble is, he says he has done the research and since Christ didn't condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, it is no longer a sin that leads to death, so he's not worried. He also says that his wife knows about the other woman and has consented to their relationship, so he isn't even sinning against her. So since adultery isn't a sin, he is still secure in his relationship with God, according to him.

He sounds confused and mislead. I pray that the Holy Spirit would convict his heart.

 

[ZiSunka]

We tend to look at issues using our timing. In a precieved perfect Christian world, people get saved and then "bam" they become just like us. The price of sin was so high that Jesus had to die on a cross to pay it. The price of sin was paid but the cost is still accumulating. Because someone can verbally justify sin means nothing, sin is a trap and adding a lie on top is nothing.

If the conviction of sin is there, then in God's timing, not ours, a heart will be broken and a new one will be installed.

Keep praying.

So the fact that he has been saved for more than a decade and has been having this affair most of that time isn't of concern? Even though he won't even admit that he is sinning?

 

[Unnamed Servant]

Trouble is, he says he has done the research and since Christ didn't condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, it is no longer a sin that leads to death, so he's not worried. He also says that his wife knows about the other woman and has consented to their relationship, so he isn't even sinning against her. So since adultery isn't a sin, he is still secure in his relationship with God, according to him.

John 9:
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains.

Love him and pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal to him his sin through scritpture.

Love-through-Christ,

Matt

 

[eldermike]

So the fact that he has been saved for more than a decade and has been having this affair most of that time isn't of concern? Even though he won't even admit that he is sinning?

Yes, it's a concern. It could mean He's not saved, but it could also mean He's quenched the HS and is not in fellowship, but saved all the same.

Sometimes Christians look at situations like this and conclude that if he can sin, I can sin. But the right conclusion is: Fellowship with Jesus is better than sin. He may have never learned this. Mentors are so important to Christians and it's just not part of our culture. We beceome Christians and take up the learn-as-you-go plan.

He's the one that's missing being with Jesus. And we don't know what the Lord has in store for Him.

Pray for a mentor/teacher to come into His life.

 

[ZiSunka]

If he has come to the conclusion that sin is not sin, and is adamant that he is right and the elders of the church are wrong, how can he possibly even think that he is out of fellowship with Christ?

But you really think that he should never be asked to leave the church, even though he is openly shaming the church by having a public affair with this other woman and is unrepentent about it?

 

[seebs]

Should a person worry about their salvation if they commit adultery not just once, but for many years after they get saved?

Suppose a man I know has an affair for many years, and it continues after he makes a profession of faith, is baptized and regularly attends church. But he doesn't think it is wrong for him to sleep with the other woman and to have a deep relationship with her. Is this man a "sinning saint" or is he just an unsaved sinner? Should he worry that his soul isn't as secure as he thinks it is?

I can answer this either way.

He should not worry, because worrying might be a way of not trusting God. We all sin, but we are told God can save us anyway.

He should worry, because we are to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" -- it is important to keep an eye on our assumptions.

I do not know the details, or the reasons for which he believes this is okay. On the whole... If he shows other fruits of the spirit, I would assume that God has the matter in hand. I do not see all ends, and God does, which is just one of the many reasons it is not mine to judge.

If there is some reason for which answering this question is important, things to look at would be what effects this is having on his relationship with his wife (you did say "other woman"), and possibly with, for instance, the other woman's husband. If his wife is being lied to or kept miserable, that is a problem worth confronting. If she's aware and unbothered, I have a much harder time building a case for caring; the OT is full of holy men who kept concubines.

The general question of when a sin matters to the rest of us, or how we should determine whether something is a sin or not, is difficult and fascinating.

 

[seebs]

If he has come to the conclusion that sin is not sin, and is adamant that he is right and the elders of the church are wrong, how can he possibly even think that he is out of fellowship with Christ?

But you really think that he should never be asked to leave the church, even though he is openly shaming the church by having a public affair with this other woman and is unrepentent about it?

A difficult question. Hmm. Here's the thing: He may be shaming the church, but there is a grave risk in modern churches that people who are convicted against their sins will be terrified to admit to anything, because they are aware that the community would likely shun them.

In short, acgcepting a sinner may lead other people to come clean, and not all may be so stubborn. Certainly, many churches and ministries are full of people who are living in sin and afraid to ask for help.

There is a story of a man who was known for drunkenness and lechery, but came to church every Sunday, attentive, sitting in the front pew. One day, the pastor asked him how he could justify being in church with his lifestyle, and he explained that, well, he needed it more than most people.

FWIW, I don't think Quakers ever kick people out of church, although they can, in very extreme cases, be disowned by the meeting. But I don't think that prohibits them from worshipping! That door is not ours to close.

 

[ZiSunka]

This guy isn't outside the church, he has been a baptized member for a long time, even taught sunday school and served as an elder for a while. You don't think there is any Biblical admontion to deal with the sin of a brother in the Lord? You don't think there is any reason for us to be concerned about his salvation, that we should just embrace and accept that he is caught up in sexual immorality?

So you all think that it's okay for him to continue in his sin, that there should be no consequences for his continuing affair, and that we should accept him and love him the way he is without even speaking about his sin again lest he become upset and leave the church?

What if he wants to teach sunday school again, or resume his place on the board of elders? Should he be welcomed with open arms there, too?

 

[seebs]

This guy isn't outside the church, he has been a baptized member for a long time, even taught sunday school and served as an elder for a while. You don't think there is any Biblical admontion to deal with the sin of a brother in the Lord? You don't think there is any reason for us to be concerned about his salvation, that we should just embrace and accept that he is caught up in sexual immorality?

I think there's grounds for concern. I could not make a Biblical case for his behavior being immoral from what you've described, though; Biblical sexual morality is a little weird by modern standards.

I do think we should try to deal with sins, but I think the best way may depend on circumstance. He's obviously at least put some thought into the question; it's not mere ignorance of opposing positions.

So you all think that it's okay for him to continue in his sin, that there should be no consequences for his continuing affair, and that we should accept him and love him the way he is without even speaking about his sin again lest he become upset and leave the church?

That might be going a bit far. I might suggest that it could be appropriate for an individual to express concern that this matter could be a stumbling block. Indeed, it seems it is one for you; you are having a hard time finding peace in this circumstance. That gives you grounds to at least talk to him about it. I would find out more about his reasoning before trying to pass judgment.

What if he wants to teach sunday school again, or resume his place on the board of elders? Should he be welcomed with open arms there, too?

I don't know. That depends, I suppose, on the views of the other people in the church.

We have had many good clergy who lived lives that we would now recognize as sinful. Do you think the clergy who held chattel slaves were less able to offer marital advice?

I just don't know what we can say about this; the situation is obviously complicated.

 

[lczell]

Your friend might like to read Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evidenty, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions dissentions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness revelries and the like of whcih I tell you beforehand just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such thing will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul had to deal with a case of manifest and impenitent sin in 1 Corinthians Chapter 5. He commanded, expell the immoral brother.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Our pastor usually reminds us that with salvation the spirit of the Lord does a work in us which causes us to hate our sin and a desire to free ourselves from it. I'm not judging his salvation by any means, but from his continued lifestyle of sin, I would consider his repentence an act of the head and not a submission of his heart.