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should a pastor be forced to leave his position if he commited adultery?

WolfGate

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I think there's more to look at than just 'should he stay or should he go".
Obviously you've got a family to consider as well, and whatever is decided for the pastor will affect them too.

My vote would be for him to stay and undergo family and marital counseling.

What I would also recommend is a totaly new board of elders.
Those are the 'sheepdogs of the flock'; the men who have most (but not all) of the responsibility for what happened here.

They are supposed to be the ones looking out for the welfare of the church as well as for the welfare of the minister and his family.
Somewhere someone fell down on that job.

For that matter, I think the church should also excommunicate the spouse of the pastor who committed adultery. She is far closer to the pastor than the elders are and must have fallen down on her job. Certainly if the elders should have known about a sin the pastor was working hard to hide, the spouse must have as well.

Seriously, the elders are responsible for how they handle any member of their body's sin once they become aware. They are not "mostly" responsible for each individual's decision to sin. The individual is. I do believe that a strong elder board will deal with the sin biblically and then look at the church culture and organization and processes and determine if there are lessons they can learn and any changes they need to make is support, accountability, etc.
 
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WolfGate

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Well we all have been down different roads,and often we can only see as far as the curves will let us.

By definition a straw man is building a premise on another topic to distract the topic at hand.

Unforgiving churches are relevant to the topic,whether they forgive or not.

You could have used the term logical Fallacy,that would apply to my generalisation on the topic.

I understand your thought on not being a straw man. Perhaps I misinterpreted your point because I thought your comment about the church never forgiving was a different premise. Either way, how a church responds is, I agree, relevant. Saying the church never forgives is factually inaccurate. Perhaps you were using that as a figure of speech to make a point and I missed it.
 
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RDKirk

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I think there's more to look at than just 'should he stay or should he go".
Obviously you've got a family to consider as well, and whatever is decided for the pastor will affect them too.

My vote would be for him to stay and undergo family and marital counseling.

What I would also recommend is a totaly new board of elders.
Those are the 'sheepdogs of the flock'; the men who have most (but not all) of the responsibility for what happened here.

They are supposed to be the ones looking out for the welfare of the church as well as for the welfare of the minister and his family.
Somewhere someone fell down on that job.

Let me get this straight.

Your opinion is that the pastor who committed adultery should remain as pastor and that all the elders should be removed?
 
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now faith

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I understand your thought on not being a straw man. Perhaps I misinterpreted your point because I thought your comment about the church never forgiving was a different premise. Either way, how a church responds is, I agree, relevant. Saying the church never forgives is factually inaccurate. Perhaps you were using that as a figure of speech to make a point and I missed it.

I know,I did not Pastor and commit adultery, but I had some disagreement with my Pastor on personal matters he knew nothing about but wanted to lay the law down anyway.
I left and visited other Churches of the same denomination,
but darn if someone from the other Church would see me and snub me.
I even attended 30 miles away and there they were family members of the original Church.
They gave me dirty looks and couldn't stand to go to the Church I left either.

That is my reasoning for the statement.:)
 
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grasping the after wind

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You know it's not the passages in Scripture I don't understand that I have trouble with, it's the ones I do but still chose to ignore. If these are God's qualifications, and no one meets them, then let no one hold that office, as again, they're God's qualifications.

For a Bishop yes, not a Pastor. If God says Bishop I expect he means Bishop. If we are going to apply the standard you wish to apply we need to be consistent . A Bishop is surely a position holding more authority than a Pastor and ought to be held to a higher standard than a Pastor. Would you use the same standard for every Christian to be involved in any kind of ministerial function as the one Paul has given for a Bishop? Would you preclude anyone that did not meet that standard from participating in any ministerial capacity? Must one be married( not a widow or a widower as they are no longer married) to visit the sick? Must one have children( even if God has seen fit to make them sterile from birth) to be an usher? How far is one to extend the qualifications Paul specifically gives for Bishops and how well does Paul fit those qualifications himself seeing as he has admittedly been involved in clerical functions himself. Blameless is hardly a word I would use for a persecutor of the church. If past crimes are to be used to judge a minister's fitness with no regard for any amount of repentance then why exempt Paul? I do not know if he had children , He never speaks of a wife and encourages celibacy, Seems rather self contradictory to encourage celibacy while insisting on the opposite as a necessary qualification for service.
What then do we do if the qualifications mentioned are all in place when the Pastor is appointed to his ( no hers allowed) position but somehow one time the pastor still ends up being human anyway? Remove the mote from his eye while squinting to see around our own beam?
 
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grasping the after wind

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Let me get this straight.

Your opinion is that the pastor who committed adultery should remain as pastor and that all the elders should be removed?

Perhapos wll shoulf=d be removed if they do not meet the qualifications. Why stop at Pastor?
 
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RDKirk

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Perhapos wll shoulf=d be removed if they do not meet the qualifications. Why stop at Pastor?

Are you then saying that if anyone is removed, everyone must be removed? Or are you saying that nobody should be removed for anything ever?
 
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RDKirk

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For a Bishop yes, not a Pastor. If God says Bishop I expect he means Bishop. If we are going to apply the standard you wish to apply we need to be consistent . A Bishop is surely a position holding more authority than a Pastor and ought to be held to a higher standard than a Pastor. Would you use the same standard for every Christian to be involved in any kind of ministerial function as the one Paul has given for a Bishop? Would you preclude anyone that did not meet that standard from participating in any ministerial capacity? Must one be married( not a widow or a widower as they are no longer married) to visit the sick? Must one have children( even if God has seen fit to make them sterile from birth) to be an usher? How far is one to extend the qualifications Paul specifically gives for Bishops and how well does Paul fit those qualifications himself seeing as he has admittedly been involved in clerical functions himself. Blameless is hardly a word I would use for a persecutor of the church. If past crimes are to be used to judge a minister's fitness with no regard for any amount of repentance then why exempt Paul? I do not know if he had children , He never speaks of a wife and encourages celibacy, Seems rather self contradictory to encourage celibacy while insisting on the opposite as a necessary qualification for service.
What then do we do if the qualifications mentioned are all in place when the Pastor is appointed to his ( no hers allowed) position but somehow one time the pastor still ends up being human anyway? Remove the mote from his eye while squinting to see around our own beam?

Are you saying that since Paul did not outline qualifications for "pastor" that there are no qualifications? Anybody with any kind of background or practices can be "pastor?"

Maybe Paul excluded qualifications for "pastor" because he's excluding any role called "pastor."
 
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Svt4Him

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Nope, what I'm saying is just ignore any Scripture you don't like, it's much easier that way. As for the beam in my eye, totally a wrong application of that Scripture as well, but regardless I'll just ignore it as I don't like it.

For a Bishop yes, not a Pastor. If God says Bishop I expect he means Bishop. If we are going to apply the standard you wish to apply we need to be consistent . A Bishop is surely a position holding more authority than a Pastor and ought to be held to a higher standard than a Pastor. Would you use the same standard for every Christian to be involved in any kind of ministerial function as the one Paul has given for a Bishop? Would you preclude anyone that did not meet that standard from participating in any ministerial capacity? Must one be married( not a widow or a widower as they are no longer married) to visit the sick? Must one have children( even if God has seen fit to make them sterile from birth) to be an usher? How far is one to extend the qualifications Paul specifically gives for Bishops and how well does Paul fit those qualifications himself seeing as he has admittedly been involved in clerical functions himself. Blameless is hardly a word I would use for a persecutor of the church. If past crimes are to be used to judge a minister's fitness with no regard for any amount of repentance then why exempt Paul? I do not know if he had children , He never speaks of a wife and encourages celibacy, Seems rather self contradictory to encourage celibacy while insisting on the opposite as a necessary qualification for service.
What then do we do if the qualifications mentioned are all in place when the Pastor is appointed to his ( no hers allowed) position but somehow one time the pastor still ends up being human anyway? Remove the mote from his eye while squinting to see around our own beam?
 
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jsimms615

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given that he is willing to repent and has repent for it

given Tullian Tchividjian for example

why and why not?

what are scriptures back either position?

thanks

Great question, looking forward to reading the replies. I think it does discredit him as spiritual leader of the church. A man that cannot control himself and stay faithful to his marriage vows isn't someone I want to listen to from the pulpit or anywhere else.
 
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jsimms615

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Look at King David. He was the spiritual leader as well as king. David was a man after God's own heart. God Himself kept the anointing on David after the Bathsheba event. Asked forgiveness? Yes. Forgiven? Yes. Still king of Israel until his death? Yes.

I dare to say if David, who looked forward to Christ's coming, was a man after God's own heart, then so is anyone truly in the Spirit of God after the resurrection of Christ. If David fell, we can fall. That means true Christian pastors. Was David true? Yes. Did he fall? Yes. Can there be pastors of a church who are true? Yes. Can they fall? Yes. Do they find forgiveness? Yes. Should they still serve the best way they are anointed to serve? Yes. I think it's up to God's divine plan whether a pastor should resign or not. Surely the church leaders and the pastor must pray to know God's will with something like this.

David also wasn't a priest or pastor
 
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1watchman

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No, Joy! You are missing the point. One can be forgiven in the Church for sins (not about Israel here), but he has forfeited his privilege as a leader and has contaminated the office. He truly is no longer fit to serve in a leadership position, as the New Testament Church shows in the various Letters of the Apostles. How could one ever trust him as to holiness and godliness before the assembly?
 
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com7fy8

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Saying he is sorry and won't do it again to me is not repentance.
Even if someone repents and you forgive the person, still the person needs to be tested about if and how God wants us to trust the person. 1 Timothy 3:1-10, to me, clearly shows that a man needs to be tested before he is trusted to "take care of the church of God". And, "of course", such a man likely has been forgiven by Jesus, for his past; yet, this does not mean he is to automatically be trusted.

And even we sheep can tell the difference. For example, when Peter decided to appoint deacons, he told the "disciples" to choose men who were "full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom"; he knew the sheep could tell . . . by their sense of smell and other senses of God's love (Hebrews 5:14) . . . if a person was really full of God's Spirit and wisdom. So, when I hear that religious leaders or a church have promoted someone who turns out to be a predator or adulterer or other evil doer, this tells me there is also the problem that even those leaders could not tell the difference.

So, the evil doer is not their real problem, then, I consider, if ones can't tell the difference between a person who is doing evil and one who is living and ministering God's own love.

if it came to light involuntarily......he's not ready to be a Pastor.
If someone has kept on doing something, in secret, this is betraying trust, and betraying trust is not loving the wife and family and church. Betrayal is an act of hatred, I understand. So, if someone can keep on doing what is a work of betraying, this is a major problem . . . not just a one-time "slip-up" or mistake, because the person is investing in this.

If we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others we better be sure we want that.
Yes, and expect to be tested before trusted. Trust, in Christ, is not blind, but we have God's light to see people right and see how He wants us to trust each person or not.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

And pay attention to how you might have helped yourself to get hurt, because of you not being able to tell the difference. God does not lead us to trust wrong and evil people; so we can simply stay with however our Father guides us "continually", and He will keep us from trusting the wrong people.

I keep seeing a tendency of people to make a big thing of blaming whoever has betrayed and hurt them, but not a word about how they fooled their own selves into trusting even evil people.

I do not think that a Pastor should try to give the false impression that they are sinless and I was glad in the past to have a Pastor who was open about his personal struggles.
"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

However, Jesus says not to judge by outward appearance > John 7:24. There can be people clever enough to confess wrong things that they see fit to confess, in order to make themselves look honest. So, we need to pray and be guided by God who knows. Plus, I think you can tell if someone is ministering for you to become more real with God and how Jesus has us loving any and all people.

Adultery is not a slip up,
I have been told that there have been times when a pastor went in the office with a woman and they got emotionally involved while talking about her problems. And then it went to adultery, for the sake of being emotionally intimate in dealing with her troubles. That, I can see, could be sort of a slip-up. But if it really was, then I'd say the man would, right away, deal with it by exposing it. And then take action, right away, to be evaluated.

But if he keeps it going, including by keeping it a secret . . . it is no way some "slip-up" or "mistake". A moment of weakness is one thing, but keeping it going is not for only a moment. And you can't love people while you are betraying, I would say.

Yes they should. They are judged harsher and are held to a higher account. 1 Timothy 3:2, 10; Titus 1:7
These standards are to be met, in order for a man to be just considered.

He should step down unless and until he has been able to reach full restoration with God and with his family and with his congregation.
And I would say the people who trusted him need to evaluate if they can tell the difference, if they fooled themselves into trusting someone who is not qualified. We are responsible . . . accountable to God . . . for who we trust and how. We can be guided by God who knows.

Look at what is said in 1Tim

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

What that clearly shows is that to be qualified to be a pastor or an elder a man must show evidence that he is fit.
And it says he rules his own home well. You need to personally know him and his example, possibly, in order to be sure about this.

Christians should expect their pastors and elders to meet the biblical qualifications set forth in Timothy and Titus. Those requirements are not perfection - but committing adultery is a long, long way from those requirements.
It says a candidate must be "blameless". I understand that "blameless", here, means how God's love cures our character, after years of maturing in Jesus. And a person like this will run his cup over to others so they also become how God's love cures our nature (1 John 4:17). So, this should be obvious, if we can tell the difference, if the person has become like this.

submitting ourselves one to another of people who do walk in truth and in his spirit and can flat read your mail and will call you on your stuff
Well, mail can be confidential, but I suppose you could have certain trusted people and let others know that your trusted people also will be reading the mail. And a man qualified has his lady who has helped him become really qualified; so certainly he would not want her to be "far" from his activities, since she has helped him so much. She is part of his example, and their marriage runs its cup over to other marriages; so people need to personally know them and their example, so they all are sharing as family. But it looks like a number of pastors have stayed distant, not personal examples whom people know as family.

If you were a congregant sitting in a pew listening to this pastor, wouldn't you have a lack of respect for him (or her) that would cloud the message. The sheep are to trust the shepherd.
As I offer, I would need to pray and seek our Father's correction so I would not be so easy to fool, if I had fooled my own self into trusting the person. In my case, I have known a number of men who later went a bad way, and I had a bad feeling about each of them, even years before their adultery or other wrongs became public; so I did not buy however they were showing in public. And I am not super-spiritual or a prophet!! But I could tell they were not ministering grace which is the effect of God's own love to correct me and mature me.

Yes. What you do is you take away his position, whisk him and his wife away to an out-of-town marriage counseling center, and provide some help for him to get on his feet in the secular marketplace.
I would say that could be good > get him away, kind of like he is in a prayer closet.

But > if you are family in Jesus, why would you send a person away? But if the person is not family with you, then . . . you don't have trust, and that one is not trusting you, which means there is a big problem. If you have failed, why would you go away from your own family who loves you??

In any case, do what God has you do. If the man was not right for doing things as family, then it "might" not matter where he is.

Because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,
There is a big difference between a good and perfect gift, and growth and maturity in God's grace. I believe there is the pastoral gift, but this is not a qualification, in Timothy 3:1-10, for one to be trusted to "take care of the church of God". A man learns in his own home, first, how to care for people in our Father's family caring and sharing way. This takes time and correction with the help of his wife, and maturing. However, his gift might help pastor him to become qualified :)
 
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RDKirk

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And pay attention to how you might have helped yourself to get hurt, because of you not being able to tell the difference. God does not lead us to trust wrong and evil people; so we can simply stay with however our Father guides us "continually", and He will keep us from trusting the wrong people.

I keep seeing a tendency of people to make a big thing of blaming whoever has betrayed and hurt them, but not a word about how they fooled their own selves into trusting even evil people.

Have to be careful with that thought, though. Remember that Paul was fooled by Demas for quite a long time.

I have been told that there have been times when a pastor went in the office with a woman and they got emotionally involved while talking about her problems. And then it went to adultery, for the sake of being emotionally intimate in dealing with her troubles. That, I can see, could be sort of a slip-up. But if it really was, then I'd say the man would, right away, deal with it by exposing it. And then take action, right away, to be evaluated.

But if he keeps it going, including by keeping it a secret . . . it is no way some "slip-up" or "mistake". A moment of weakness is one thing, but keeping it going is not for only a moment. And you can't love people while you are betraying, I would say.

The Holy Spirit is a watchdog.

Although I have not been a pastor, there were times when I was a military supervisor that I counseled young people who worked for me on personal matters--being a military supervisor can get deeply into personal matters.

One time in particular, a very attractive and smart young woman was having problems in her marriage that were affecting her ability to meet duty requirements, and she unloaded the difficulties her husband caused on me during a counseling session. It was absurd to me that any man would want to cause this woman hardship--what a jerk he must be! If this woman was my wife....

And the Holy Spirit said, "Stop right there. Don't take another step down that road."
 
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com7fy8

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Remember that Paul was fooled by Demas for quite a long time.
I don't remember this being in scripture. I intend now to look, but you might give the Bible verses which tell us this . . . while I am looking.

It was absurd to me that any man would want to cause this woman hardship--what a jerk he must be! If this woman was my wife....
Oh yes . . . comparing myself to another woman's man.

And yes the Holy Spirit is quite able to keep you while you are alone with a woman . . . like Joseph in the house with Potipher's wife. But we need to make sure we are mature, I would say, with self-control of the Holy Spirit.
 
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brinny

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given that he is willing to repent and has repent for it

given Tullian Tchividjian for example

why and why not?

what are scriptures back either position?

thanks

He should graciously leave voluntarily.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Are you then saying that if anyone is removed, everyone must be removed? Or are you saying that nobody should be removed for anything ever?
I'm saying that different positions require different criterion and some require higher standards than others. I'm saying that it is not necessary to apply the standard for a Bishop to a Pastor.
 
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RDKirk

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I don't remember this being in scripture. I intend now to look, but you might give the Bible verses which tell us this . . . while I am looking.

Demas is mentioned by the Apostle Paul in the New Testament of the Bible,as a man involved in Paul's ministry (Colossians 4:14 and Philemon 1:24).

Demas is best known for the statement in Second Timothy, that says "...for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica." (2Timothy 4:10a).
 
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Lavendar Frog

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given that he is willing to repent and has repent for it

given Tullian Tchividjian for example

why and why not?

what are scriptures back either position?

thanks
He or she should absolutely have to resign their post. At least for awhile. Theirs is a serious responsibility and something they'll have to account to God for in the course of committing to their duties. And their failures.
 
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RDKirk

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I'm saying that different positions require different criterion and some require higher standards than others. I'm saying that it is not necessary to apply the standard for a Bishop to a Pastor.

There is only one reference to "pastor" as a church role. Whatever that role was in the early congregations, it was either "overseer" or "deacon." In today's congregations, the "pastor" holds a role more closely described by Paul as "bishop" than "deacon."
 
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