Should a Christian go to war?

[TG123]

There is nothing peacfull about allowing rapist to rape, robbers to rob, murderers to kill. Those who go before criminals and disarm thier victims so they can "Paecfully" Rape, rob, and kill are more evil than the criminals themselves.

Agreed. That's why you should get in the criminals' faces and stand between them and their victims so they can't go after them.

 

[BernieEOD]

Agreed. That's why you should get in the criminals' faces and stand between them and their victims so they can't go after them.

They will slice through you as though you were not even there. You wouls simply become another victim and be raped, beaten, or killed along with the people you refuse to protect. Presenting a target is not stopping them. Once again, every time a pliceman shoots a criminal, or when "Those evil SEALS" SHoot a Pirate, or a man of the house shoots an intruder, the likes of you cry out against the one who fails to love the criminal. This makes your ministry a minister for the criminal.

I have been on patrol ready to kill anyone who tried to blow up our ships.
As and agent of the government under Romans 13, I did nothing wrong and you have yet to convince me to repent of it.

I have used the threat of deadly force to stop a rapist to wanted to rape and kill my family in retalliation for turning them into the police aftr he robbed the house. Simply getting in his face and allowing him to kill me before he carried out his threat would not have stopped him. Once again, you claim I was evil for failing to love the rapist. Once again, you are a minister of the rapist. In your eyes, I am the offenddr for not presenting myself to be killed and my family to be raped and killed.

There are thing I need to repent of. Not following your pro rapist ministry is not one of them.

 

[TG123]

They will slice through you as though you were not even there. You wouls simply become another victim and be raped, beaten, or killed along with the people you refuse to protect. Presenting a target is not stopping them. Once again, every time a pliceman shoots a criminal, or when "Those evil SEALS" SHoot a Pirate, or a man of the house shoots an intruder, the likes of you cry out against the one who fails to love the criminal. This makes your ministry a minister for the criminal.

I have been on patrol ready to kill anyone who tried to blow up our ships.
As and agent of the government under Romans 13, I did nothing wrong and you have yet to convince me to repent of it.

I have used the threat of deadly force to stop a rapist to wanted to rape and kill my family in retalliation for turning them into the police aftr he robbed the house. Simply getting in his face and allowing him to kill me before he carried out his threat would not have stopped him. Once again, you claim I was evil for failing to love the rapist. Once again, you are a minister of the rapist. In your eyes, I am the offenddr for not presenting myself to be killed and my family to be raped and killed.

There are thing I need to repent of. Not following your pro rapist ministry is not one of them.

Or as I was killed (if that was the case) they would be able to run away. Or I would do what you did and threaten deadly force but not carry it out.

I do indeed believe we need to love criminals. We need to love everyone. In fact, we need to love our enemies. What a crazy idea, eh? Came from a guy who died on the cross for you when He could have just as easily called in angels that are far more powerful than your army buddies all combined.

In your eyes, I am a "minister for the criminal" and run a "pro rape, pro robbery and pro murder ministry". No, I do not work for the Pentagon which runs one of the largest terrorist organizations in the history of the word- your country's armed forces.

I do however believe that Jesus meant what He said and I intend to follow His words. If loving one's enemies and turning the other cheek sounds stupid to you, that's your opinion. I am sure that the neoconservatives who wanted to send you off to off to war would agree. As would the Al Qaeda and Taleban extremists who shoot at American soldiers who are in turn shooting at them (and anyone else, including civilians who happens to get in their line of fire).

 

[MostRadicalManEver]

What a heated subject! Quite intriguing indeed!

Is there any post-cross (new covenant) scripture where one can justify INITIATING physical violence against another person?

And for that matter (and this will cook your noodle) why do you suppose that people being murdered/tortured desired to not be rescued?

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

The scriptures I think point to something beyond what the flesh wants to believe. Which is - retaliation is OK, but is it scriptural? I can't back it up with concrete scriptures. Vengeance is God's! (Rom 12:19 Heb 10:30 Deu_32:35 ps 94:1)

This is one of them there - hard sayings! (tends to strain out the bad fish from the dragnet! Mat 13:47)

 

[BernieEOD]

Or as I was killed (if that was the case) they would be able to run away. Or I would do what you did and threaten deadly force but not carry it out.

I do indeed believe we need to love criminals. We need to love everyone. In fact, we need to love our enemies. What a crazy idea, eh? Came from a guy who died on the cross for you when He could have just as easily called in angels that are far more powerful than your army buddies all combined.

In your eyes, I am a "minister for the criminal" and run a "pro rape, pro robbery and pro murder ministry". No, I do not work for the Pentagon which runs one of the largest terrorist organizations in the history of the word- your country's armed forces.

I do however believe that Jesus meant what He said and I intend to follow His words. If loving one's enemies and turning the other cheek sounds stupid to you, that's your opinion. I am sure that the neoconservatives who wanted to send you off to off to war would agree. As would the Al Qaeda and Taleban extremists who shoot at American soldiers who are in turn shooting at them (and anyone else, including civilians who happens to get in their line of fire).

1) If you threatendeadly force, you had better not be bluffing.
Presenting another target is not a viable alternative. If one family does not get away, then you die in vain.

2) I agree with some of your asertations of the Pentagon. I was willing (And did) my duty on domestic harbor security. You have yet to convince me that I need to repent "Of this evil". When it was time to go to Iraq. I agree with you on that one and I submitted my retirement papers rather than take part in this evil invasion. I cannot blame the enemy for killing us over there becase we are the invaders.

You have love for the criminal and hate for the victim who fiughts back.
I will not join you in your condemnation of "Thoise evil SEALS" who disobaeyed Christs command to love those Pirates. Those Pirate recieved what Romans 13 commands.

 

[BernieEOD]

What a heated subject! Quite intriguing indeed!

Is there any post-cross (new covenant) scripture where one can justify INITIATING physical violence against another person?

And for that matter (and this will cook your noodle) why do you suppose that people being murdered/tortured desired to not be rescued?

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

The scriptures I think point to something beyond what the flesh wants to believe. Which is - retaliation is OK, but is it scriptural? I can't back it up with concrete scriptures. Vengeance is God's! (Rom 12:19 Heb 10:30 Deu_32:35 ps 94:1)

This is one of them there - hard sayings! (tends to strain out the bad fish from the dragnet! Mat 13:47)

I have yet to be condemed by anyone for doing my duty. Those on the waterfront were glad we were there. When I backed people up with a firearm to protect them, they were gratefull. I will not join your condemnation of "Those evil SEALS"

 

[MostRadicalManEver]

"I will not join your condemnation of "Those evil SEALS""

I was simply asking for a clear cut post-cross scripture stating that the initiation of physical violence is Biblically sound.

Did you hear me condemn someone? Maybe it was all the scripture references in my post??? In that case, your problem isn't with me.

Plus I would probably be excited to be rescued by Seals. However, I am trying renew my mind with the mind of Christ (1Co 2:16) and His teachings (rom 12:2).

To convince me that initiating violence is ok under the new covenant, then I need to see scripture stating that (post cross new covenant teachings).

Jesus Rules!

One could make the argument that the seals didn't initiate the violence but were rescuing a person. I agree. However, the original post was "should a Christian go to war?" Which I am simply pointing out I can't make a scriptural case for a Christian going to war.

The Christian warfare is spiritual and uses the Word (Eph 6:17).

2Co 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh (4) (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds), (5) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;

 

[BernieEOD]

Once again, we arrive at Romans 13. Governments have the power of the Sword. Both in Law enforcement and in Military matters. And....As I have said before, I chose to retire rather than take part in the invasion of Iraq (Moot point because it turned out that my unit wasnt invited anyway). I feel blessed that I was able to get out without having to make a stand and face the legal consequences. Even so, I can't tell you what I would have done due to the fact that my unit wasn't invited and even today, is confined to deploying on Aircraft Carriers waiting to react to a bomb falling off a plane.

I agree with you on that point and because for my 26 years in the service we were told that "We never attack first! Our job is to repel attackers" I was very upset over us becomming the invaders and like I said, forced through my retirement because of it.

 

[MostRadicalManEver]

I read Romans 13 a few times and still don’t get that a Christian should go to war out of it. If a government contradicts Jesus, then it is not a government that is in authority over Christians right? That means we would be putting another god over Christ.

Two God ordained governments killing each other just does not make sense either.

Also, if we are to obey governments over God then Peter would have stopped preaching.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego would have bowed to Nebuchadnezza’s
Statue (Dan 3).

Daniel would have stopped preying. Daniel Chapter 6.

Mordecai would have bowed the knee to Haman (Ester 3)

You get the point.

 

[Ivy]

When terrorists or psychopathic criminals are doing unspeakable things to others, their sins are piling up higher and higher, their guilt is becoming heavier, their souls are becoming blacker, and their day of judgment before God is becoming more and more awful.

It might be the better part of "loving our enemies" to stop them from performing deeds that destroy their own souls more & more with each passing awful deed they do.

To let them continue is to allow them to rot, basically.

 

[BernieEOD]

I read Romans 13 a few times and still don’t get that a Christian should go to war out of it. If a government contradicts Jesus, then it is not a government that is in authority over Christians right? That means we would be putting another god over Christ.

Two God ordained governments killing each other just does not make sense either.

Also, if we are to obey governments over God then Peter would have stopped preaching.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego would have bowed to Nebuchadnezza’s
Statue (Dan 3).

Daniel would have stopped preying. Daniel Chapter 6.

Mordecai would have bowed the knee to Haman (Ester 3)

You get the point.

This is why, as a Christian, one needs to have discretion. I was happy to reirire rather than take part in the invasion of Iraq. There is a Chapel in Italy named after a Roman Centurion who was a Christian. Rather than obey his orders to kill Christians, he took off his uniform and stood among those about to be executed. Up until those orders, he had no conflict between his service and his faith.

 

[BernieEOD]

When terrorists or psychopathic criminals are doing unspeakable things to others, their sins are piling up higher and higher, their guilt is becoming heavier, their souls are becoming blacker, and their day of judgment before God is becoming more and more awful.

It might be the better part of "loving our enemies" to stop them from performing deeds that destroy their own souls more & more with each passing awful deed they do.

To let them continue is to allow them to rot, basically.

Or, if they are defeated in battle without dyng, they might decide to repent.

 

[Ivy]

Definitely......defeat can be a much needed wake-up call.

It can be an intervention from the Father who is, in love, disciplining the child whom He still loves and wants to save. God is no enabler, in my view.

 

[TG123]

Once again, we arrive at Romans 13. Governments have the power of the Sword. Both in Law enforcement and in Military matters. And....As I have said before, I chose to retire rather than take part in the invasion of Iraq (Moot point because it turned out that my unit wasnt invited anyway). I feel blessed that I was able to get out without having to make a stand and face the legal consequences. Even so, I can't tell you what I would have done due to the fact that my unit wasn't invited and even today, is confined to deploying on Aircraft Carriers waiting to react to a bomb falling off a plane.

I agree with you on that point and because for my 26 years in the service we were told that "We never attack first! Our job is to repel attackers" I was very upset over us becomming the invaders and like I said, forced through my retirement because of it.

Romans 13 says to submit to authorities, not to join them in breaking Christ's teachings. Yes, God has given them the power to use the sword, and if we commit crime we should expect to be punished by the sword. There is still no mention of Christians being told to wield the sword.

In Paul's time, the authorities were pagan Romans who sacrificed to false deities. Yes, some of the emperors may have been just but they were not Christians. They demanded that government ministers sacrifice to the gods, Christians did not. They were not part of this government.

If you believe that Romans 13 makes violence by governments OK, then which governments. Would that include the USSR? Nazi Germany?

You have said "one must use discretion", and that is why you have refused to serve in Iraq. I commend you for that. But I hate to break it to you, your government has had the blood of innocents on its hands from the moment of its conception. Read up about the conquest of American First Nations peoples to the history of US foreign policy in the Middle East and Latin America. Check up on Suharto from Indonesia or Pinochet from Chile, see who they were and who backed them to the hilt. American armed forces and the American government have a history of violence and conquest of innocent people that origins from your nation's birth. Not that Canada is any better.

If Romans 13 applies to "just nations" (I have yet to find one), then neither my country or your country would qualify. Our swords are drenched with the blood of children not criminals.

 

[TG123]

Definitely......defeat can be a much needed wake-up call.

It can be an intervention from the Father who is, in love, disciplining the child whom He still loves and wants to save. God is no enabler, in my view.

An interesting viewpoint. Would you be willing to apply it to your own nation though?

I personally think that an defeat in war can be an act of God but it doesn't mean that the people who implement it (or the other side's victors) are God's servants. Israel's enemies were allowed to attack Israel as a punishment for Israel's unfaithfulness, yet look what happened to them later.

Also, how can you witness to someone who you have just killed in battle?

 

[BernieEOD]

Romans 13 says to submit to authorities, not to join them in breaking Christ's teachings. Yes, God has given them the power to use the sword, and if we commit crime we should expect to be punished by the sword.(Quote)

Romans 13 goes on to say that "Governments are God servants. Avenging Angels placed upon theis Earth to bring wrath upon evil doers" So, this is God work that only unbelievers should be allowed to do? If you are doing the job of briningin wrath to evil doers, you are not breaking Christs teaching. When Soldiers asked John the Baptist "What shall we do?" John did not command them to shed thier uniformas and desert the Army, He told them to collect no more tax than commanded and to be content with their wages. In summary, he commanded them to do their job fairly and justly in a manner pleasing to God. To only put the evil to the sword and not the innocent. Not to abuse thier authority but use it to serve. Roman Soldiers were allowed to plunder the populace for personal supliment to thier pay. When John commanded "Be content with your wages, he ordered them not to exercise thier right to do this but to live off of thier wage. (A tall order since soldiers were not paid well)

When a Centurian approached Jesus asking his servant to be healed, Jesus did not command him to resign from the military. He commended him as showing more faith than any Jew. Cornelius was another Roman Centurian who helped the Apostles. Once again, he was not commanded to resign from the Legion either.

 

[Linus]

I would fight for fellow believers, family and friends. Not for manmade nations.

 

[TG123]

Romans 13 says to submit to authorities, not to join them in breaking Christ's teachings. Yes, God has given them the power to use the sword, and if we commit crime we should expect to be punished by the sword.(Quote)

Romans 13 goes on to say that "Governments are God servants. Avenging Angels placed upon theis Earth to bring wrath upon evil doers" So, this is God work that only unbelievers should be allowed to do? If you are doing the job of briningin wrath to evil doers, you are not breaking Christs teaching. When Soldiers asked John the Baptist "What shall we do?" John did not command them to shed thier uniformas and desert the Army, He told them to collect no more tax than commanded and to be content with their wages. In summary, he commanded them to do their job fairly and justly in a manner pleasing to God. To only put the evil to the sword and not the innocent. Not to abuse thier authority but use it to serve. Roman Soldiers were allowed to plunder the populace for personal supliment to thier pay. When John commanded "Be content with your wages, he ordered them not to exercise thier right to do this but to live off of thier wage. (A tall order since soldiers were not paid well)

When a Centurian approached Jesus asking his servant to be healed, Jesus did not command him to resign from the military. He commended him as showing more faith than any Jew. Cornelius was another Roman Centurian who helped the Apostles. Once again, he was not commanded to resign from the Legion either.

You make some interesting points. However, I still don't believe that Christians have the right to take vengeance on others or hunt them down and kill them.
List me one government (after Christ's ascension into Heaven) which you can say with certainty never abused its power .

 

[Aibrean]

I would fight for fellow believers, family and friends. Not for manmade nations.

You mean God-made nations...

No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

 

[BernieEOD]

You make some interesting points. However, I still don't believe that Christians have the right to take vengeance on others or hunt them down and kill them.
List me one government (after Christ's ascension into Heaven) which you can say with certainty never abused its power .

Repelling an attacker is not vengence. Hunting down a rapist, robber, or murderer in order to bring him before the courts is not vengence.
What those SEALS did to the Somali Pirates was well withing the authority of the government under Romans 13. If any of those SEALS were Christian, they did no wrong.